Spanking Children

Discussion in 'Opinions & Current Events' started by Danoff, Aug 14, 2019 at 6:55 PM.

  1. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    I propose that spanking a child to achieve discipline is a failure of the adult. Parental attachment is one of the primary ways that children learn how to regulate their emotions. Emotional regulation is a cornerstone of empathy and behavior when interacting with others. I'm not making this stuff up off of the top of my head, this is the current state of research in child emotional and cognitive development. (See the Whole Brain Child and No Drama Discipline). The very core of child behavioral regulation is parental attachment, and mirroring.

    By spanking children, you directly undermine the emotional foundation that children use to achieve behavioral regulation.

    Spanking can get short-term results. Which is why parents use it (and other forms of violence, including deep psychological and physical abuse) to achieve the behavioral results they want. But those short-term results come at a consequence which is the long term emotional health and development of the child.

    Young children are often completely out of control of their emotional state and even their bodies. They are in the process of learning how to control themselves and regulate their brains. Spanking them disrupts this process and sends exactly the wrong signal. It teaches them that it is ok to hit, but it also teaches them that their emotional state is something to be feared, and that their bond with their parents is contingent.

    Stop spanking your kids.
     
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  2. GranTurNismo

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    Does this really need it's own thread? I doubt that there's very many 21st century, first-world parents who would advocate for spanking. It's pretty common knowledge that spanking=bad, at least in my neck of the woods.
     
  3. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Believe what you want to believe!
    I got my share of spankings when I screwed up royally. I was never abused, beaten, bruised or mistreated. The main thing that got hurt was my feelings and spanking was not a first or second main source of discipline in my home. I knew when I got a spanking what is was for and yeah I deserved it, never got a spanking I did not earn with my behavior.

    Also after I was grown I appreciate my parents actually cared enough about how I turned out to put the effort into teaching me right from wrong, personal responsibility as it would actually have been easier at times to let me do what I wanted rather than put the effort out to steer me in the right direction.

    I am in my 60's now and have never and still to this day suffer no ill effects from the upbringing I had from two parents that had only my best interest at heart and in their actions.
    Abusing a child is a completely different topic but a switch across the legs to get a childs attention is not going to make them a dejected mass murderer eating tide pods and shooting up schools.

    We only see that type of behavior today now that a parent can actually be arrested for correcting their children if it does not meet the current PC standards for doing so!
     
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  4. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    Judging from the responses I'm getting in the America thread, and from the fact that I observe parents threatening to spank 5 year olds today (like within the last month), yes I think it is.

    I like how you can move hitting or not hitting children to a "PC" issue.
     
  5. MaxAttack

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    Playing devil's advocate a little here but as someone who was spanked as a young kid when I acted like a little nob, as kids are known to do, I'm pretty sure I still have the emotional foundation used to achieve behavioural regulation.

    If anything, it showed me at a young age that actions have consequences, one doesn't always get one's way, and certainly not by stomping about throwing tantrums and screaming.

    Sure, there are probably other ways to learn such things but it worked. My parents never hurt me, kids' backsides are pretty soft, and there's a wide line between a spank on the buttock and a punch in the face.

    I don't really believe you can spank mental disorders into your child. Discipline is important. Kids that don't learn discipline end up arrogant and entitled and often underachieve, or aren't really prepared for the crushing brutality of actual life.

    Of course, I was spanked, so maybe that's just the emotionless husk in me talking.
     
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  6. Eunos_Cosmo

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    To the topic generally: Don't do it.
     
  7. TexRex

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    Unique privilege of that particular stick; because it doesn't actually exist, it can be wagged at anything and everything anyone chooses.
     
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  8. Joey D

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    I'm still a bit on the fence with regards to spanking. I don't think it should be the first form of punishment and I think other things should be tried first. But I think a swat on the bum can help some kids understand. However, you should never use a belt, paddle, or anything like that. Only your hand on a clothed behind.

    That's how my parents did it and the only time I even got a spanking is when I got caught lying to my dad about the same thing more than once. After getting privileges taken away, I didn't get the message and continued to lie. I then got a spanking because of it and since then, I've never lied to my dad...even as a teenager (where I still did asshat things but never lied). Granted I don't think that would work with every kid and I think you probably need to address the situation based on what's going on.

    My little guy is still way to young to understand anything like a spanking yet, so I'm not sure which way I'll end up. I know my wife and I have had several conversations about it since we want to be on the same page.
     
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  9. DDastardly00

    DDastardly00

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    One of my good friends is a vet, and now and LEO/ detective, He doesn't spank his kids, he makes them do PT as a form of discipline and he says that is very effective. They run laps, Up-Down-Goes, and other exercises. He figures if the discipline is not effective in the end then at least they will be in great physical condition.
     
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  10. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    The whole point, good parents know how to differentiate between what is suitable for the offense and the child. Spanking is just one small tool in the parents arsenal to choose from when certain situations exist.

    I have a daughter who is is 42, during her entire childhood she had one spanking probably at about age 7. She finished school with honors, has a really great job, never has done drugs or been in legal trouble and has raised two daughters herself. We have always had a great father/daughter relationship and yes I am proud of her.

    There is a big difference in reasonable discipline and abuse or beating of a child.
     
  11. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    It's not determinative. Almost no single act (barring extreme ones) you do as a parent is determinative.

    Hitting your kid is not the only way to show that. It just happens to be one way to show it that also comes with negative consequences for discipline.

    Hitting kids can get short term results.

    The amount of actual physical harm caused is less important. Kids recover from a lot of injuries. A punch in the face heals too.

    "Mental disorder" is a tough one to pick at. But you can damage attachment, emotional regulation, and behavioral control by spanking.

    Totally agree. I don't know why this is an argument for spanking.

    You're likely to defend the techniques that your parents used to raise you.

    Read "No Drama Discipline" or "The Whole Brain Child" and then get back to me on whether you're still on the fence. There are other ways to accomplish this that are in line with child brain development.

    Lazy parenting.

    You can get results with spanking, it's just no a good idea.

    If you have a kid, I can't recommend those two books enough. I can almost guarantee it will change your perspective on discipline from something that you should just kinda wing and see if it works, maybe trying what your parents did, to instead actually thinking about what to do and why - where you kids brains are, what they're capable of understanding, and what they're currently working on emotionally and socially.

    If you're like me, you'll realize that almost every time you instinctively get angry with your kids, what they need at that time is compassion.

    A poor, lazy tool used by parents who don't know better to get short term results.

    I can tell. Her accomplishments are her own. You didn't spank her way to honors, or spank her way out of drugs. And you'd be hard pressed to find an example of someone who didn't get honors in high school, or did drugs, who just needed to be spanked more and would have become a model citizen.

    I'm sure you made some parenting mistakes along the way. Spanking her once was probably not even the only mistake you made. Kids are resilient. She did what she did not because you spanked her. I'm sure you could have handled that one situation better.
     
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  12. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    You sir are not the messiah whos word and opinion everyone else must agree with and follow your holier than thou attitude thank the lord. Half of societies problems are a result of people who follow your line of thinking in my opinion.
     
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  13. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    Almost nobody is following this particular line of thinking. Most people just do what their parents did. And that's a real shame because raising children is fairly important, and we know scientifically a great deal about how the brain develops and how certain behavior is learned and achieved.

    You have no leg to stand on here. You have no idea whether that one incident with your daughter was pivotal in her upbringing... no way to show that she couldn't have achieved what she did without being spanked. On the other hand, I can actually tell you that parental attachment, parental emotional regulation, and parental compassion are demonstrably, factually, critically important in child development. Spanking undermines each one.

    I'm no messiah, this is true. I'm just reporting to you what you should already know, that winging it, and doing what your parents did, isn't necessarily the best way to go about helping a new human develop their brain.
     
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  14. Joey D

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    Will do, parenting is hard (and my little dude is only 9 months old) and I'll take any sort of help I can get to be honest.
     
  15. DDastardly00

    DDastardly00

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    I would at least give one of the books Danoff mentioned a read. To his point, my sister raised both of her kids without spanking by following the guidance of a similar book, one is finishing High school a year early in the accelerated learning program and the other just graduated from College with a degree in Forensic Psychiatry.
     
  16. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    I'm not even sure those books mention spanking to be honest. I think they tried to avoid alienating people (which is something I obviously don't worry about). But I don't think you can make it through them and still think that it's a good idea.

    All of my instincts for raising kids were backward. Of course my parents were not good. My instincts (still) are tuned exactly opposite. I still naturally want obedience instead of emotional development. When my kids disobey, I tend to want to punish the disobedience instead of educating. I'm learning, but it is damned hard. It's not what I was shown when I was a kid, and not what my wife was shown, so neither of us has the right gut response when a kid acts out. Disobedience still feels like it should be squashed and eliminated, instead of used as an instructional tool.

    =====

    I note that some folks here are using college scores or jobs as indicators of good parenting. It's not. I can tell you from experience how mentally screwed up a kid can be from having bad parents and still look outwardly successful. Suicidal on the inside, responsible member of society on the outside. I'm not saying your kids are that way, just pointing out that it's not a good substitute for parental success, which is much harder to demonstrate online. It's hard to point to one thing that says "my kid is emotionally stable, responsible, educated and happy" - which is what the goal of parenting should be.

    ======

    One crappy thing that parents do (and I'm guilty of this too) is measuring their success against other parents and their kids. So if my kids is flopping on the floor having a tantrum, and some other kid is behaving like a saint, I feel inadequate as a parent and they feel (presumably) honored by their child's superior behavior.

    But if you think about it carefully, this doesn't work. You can achieve discipline by abusing your children (I don't just mean spanking here, I mean torture). You can have a child who does everything perfectly, is completely polite, and has been scarred emotionally and who will have to contend with those scars for the rest of their life. Proper parenting can look, in the short term, worse than some improper parenting. And that's one of the reasons that short-term alternatives get latched onto.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019 at 9:45 PM
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  17. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    Although the other side of the coin is apparently my style of parenting did not mentally or emotionally damage her or impede her ability to become a positive member of society and did not turn her into a tide pod eating, depressed alcoholic sharing needles while she planned on shooting up her school and classmates either.

    My argument for my way being a parenting success is just as good as yours saying it is damaging.

    Actually my 2 aunts and 2 uncles raised their 7 kids, my cousins the same way as I was raised and not one person within our family including my cousins is a criminal or convicted felon, drug addict, unemployed on welfare or trying to figure out who their babies daddy might be. Also they all did well in school and have pretty good jobs in varied fields they can raise a family on. So I guess that style of parenting in my experience is no where near as damaging as you would to make it out to be.

    None of them are liberals or libertarians either!
     
  18. Danoff

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    It's not determinative. However, it's not easy to say whether or not there was zero damage.

    It takes something very wrong to accomplish that. Tide pods are gross.

    Not really no. Your argument for your way of parenting being successful is that that aspect didn't ruin the result (as far as you can tell). I'm saying that that one aspect isn't consistent with healthy emotional development based on actual understanding of psychology and brain development. Lots and lots of horrible parenting can fail to ruin the result. Doesn't make it good to replicate.

    I don't remember saying that if you spank your kids they'll turn into convicted felons.
     
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  19. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    In many aspects psychology in general is only a couple of steps above a mystic with a crystal ball or tarot cards.
    Its mainly all guesswork and trying to compare general assumptions of behavior and guessing what a person may be thinking or why they behave a certain way.
    Again DR. Spock was one of the early parenting "experts" but hasn't much of his work been rejected or replaced today? Basically what it boils down to being is what is expert advice now may be considered a joke tomorrow. One day eating eggs will kill you and next week that is claimed wrong. You can believe what you want and I will believe what I want.
    But you did infer that spanking could be damaging to a persons well being or possible potential.
    Generally all a book is is another individuals (the author) opinion, no more, no less.
    I am long past the child rearing stage of my life and well set in my ways and beliefs in those areas. I am told on here that I am wrong in my way of thinking but personal experiences and interactions with others raised the same as myself has proven a loving family that also invokes certain levels of discipline and responsibilities can also have the desired results of raising happy kids that grow into a positive member of society.

    I do also know most kids in the area I grew up were raised the same way and we did not have to worry about our youth of the time shooting up schools or killing classmates. The same cannot be said for the youth of today, no I cannot say current parenting practices are the cause but I surely cannot say they are not, after all that is one major difference between the era's we are discussing.

    If I had it to do over again, raising kids I would not change a thing as I feel the results of my parents generation and my generations antique methods seemed to work pretty well overall.
     
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  20. DDastardly00

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    I can respect that. On the subject of school shootings, they have been around really since the 1800's but only recently, since the early 90's have they increased in frequency at a seemingly exponential rate.

    Now, it certainly isn't spanking or lack of spanking causing this increase, of that much I am positively sure. If I were to look at possible culprits, I would start by looking at what changed from 1989-2009 in regard to medications prescribed and also the state of the mental health decline in United States, then I would filter that data by age bracket and isolate the data specifically to children.

    Now, many of us have probably at least partially heard about psychotropic drugs use in children increasing sixfold in the 90's. That trend has done nothing but continue, and may be having a negative impact on mental health development in our youth.

    While there isn't concrete data on what the long terms effects will be (yet), it's troubling that the time frame of the increase in school shootings lines up almost directly with the time frame of over-prescription of psychotropic drugs to kids. The other thing I would look at is the affects of social media on our youth, bullying and other societal factors, that is a great starting point to figuring out what is broken which is paramount to coming up with a solution to fix this problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019 at 12:38 AM
  21. VFOURMAX1

    VFOURMAX1

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    And there you hit on another main aspect is that anytime a child acts out or misbehaves the psychologist want to assign some alphabet condition adhd or bi polar or something, anything except hold the child responsible for their behavior. Then they want to medicate the child and I agree these medications and their long term affects may just be coming to light.

    Back in my antique era growing up a trip behind the woodshed usually cured the acting out, misbehaving problems and again the side effects did not include that student being violent and shooting up their school even though most homes (in my area) firearms were easily available to said student. Actually during hunting season in high school 60% of the boys vehicles had hunting rifles and ammo in their vehicles in the school parking lot because they were going hunting after class. Seems amazing that if you look at today that back then so many weapons were on school property but no one ever shot up the school, or their classmates or teachers.

    As far as mental health decline just be honest and say what it is in the old days they locked the crazies up away from the non crazy people. Today they give them a pill and cross their fingers they do not kill someone or themselves.

    These days a pill is supposed to fix everything from being crazy to being impotent!
     
  22. TexRex

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    "I don't understand how that works, so it must not."
     
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  23. Joey D

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    @Danoff I swung by the local bookstore on the way home from work and they didn't have either book so I'll probably order them on Amazon. I'm flying most of next week and being on a small, prop plane there's not much else to do but read. Also, I'm not sure if you've ever been to Carson City, NV but it's not like there's anything for me to do at night either besides drink.

    Here's the thing, ADD and ADHD research has come a really long way even in my lifetime. While I still think too many parents place that label on their kids without any actual medical evaluation, there are several kids that really do have it. And now there are legit ways to treat it that don't deal with medication either. Plenty of psychiatrists are moving to those methods too, at least for the initial attempt to get it under control.

    Probably because psych hospitals "back in the day" were not environments that we should subject humans too. Medications now are way better too since it's not just lithium or diazepam on the market. Therapy is better too since there's less of a social stigma about going to one.
     
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  24. Danoff

    Danoff Premium

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    I had to look him up.

    You're talking about a book published in 1946? You made up your mind about the field of psychology because of a pediatrician (not psychologist) who published a book 73 years ago?

    Science you know. It builds on itself, changing at the bleeding edge but not in the hard center.

    What does the field of nutrition have to do with the study of child brain chemistry and development?

    I try to believe things which are true, rather than what I want.

    It can be.

    Or science. It could be that.

    Glad to know I'm talking to a closed mind.

    Let's beat the mental problems out of them.

    School shooters? Probably their parents didn't hit 'em enough.

    Either beat 'em up, or lock 'em up.

    Your go-to for dealing with difficult psychology seems to be to hit somebody. I'm guessing you weren't spanked enough as a kid.
     
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  25. TenEightyOne

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    So do you or do you not agree that some of these conditions can be diagnosably chemical and that the "naughty kid" philosophies of the 1950s might have been wrong?

    Actually being raped has a seriously detrimental effect on child and adult psychology, if that's what you mean?

    "Crazy" is subjective. The "old days" were patriarchal, classist and inhumane. Imagine not thinking like you were told to think and then being locked up for it. And it really happened.

    So, again, you don't agree that modern understanding of brain chemistry and its effects on mood and behaviour is better than locking up the crazies, raping them out of sight behind sheds or giving them a good clout?
     
  26. DDastardly00

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    Ah electro shock therapy...the good old days....
     
  27. 1241Penguin

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    Not sure how useful it is for the parents in here, but when I studied developmental psychology, one of the more interesting topics I learned was regarding parenting styles and attachment types. The four styles are: authoritative parenting, authoritarian parenting, permissive parenting, and uninvolved parenting. To put things in very simple language, authoritative parenting involves being strict on a child while also being loving. Parents have fair expectations for their kid but they are also emotionally warm and supportive to them. Authoritarian is just the strict part with little warm, which is probably in line with the stereotypical Asian "tiger" parent. Permissive parenting involves parents discipling their child very seldom. Uninvolved is just, well, uninvolved. Not responsive to the child's needs and not much talking.

    Among these, authoritative parenting has been shown in studies by Mary Ainsworth to be best for the child in terms of their attachment. Other studies have also shown that authoritative parenting leads to high self esteem for the kid, greater independence, and better emotional well-being. With all that said, it is important to keep in mind cultural differences, and that your mileage may vary depending on where you're conducting the study. As far as I can tell, there is no proven benefit of spanking children.

    I probably can't upload the scholarly articles I received from university onto here but you can probably Google Baumrind's Parenting Styles and Ainsworth's Attachment Styles and get some nice info that way. Here are some articles you can check out if you don't want to go through their study in depth: parenting styles and attachment types.
     
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  28. Joey D

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    We still sort of do that today, it's just called ECT now and is far less inhumane. Apparently, it works but I don't know enough about it. The health system I work for now is the first one I've been at that actually performs the procedure.
     
  29. wfooshee

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    There is an opposite end of this spectrum, and that is the folks who don't know how to correct their children's behavior. My favorite is the idea that screaming fits and tantrums are just the child seeking attention, and reacting to that only enforces the behavior.

    Even worse than ignoring it is the parent who begs the child to behave. "Please stop doing that." "I wish you'd not act like that." Ooooh! That'll set 'em straight!

    Ignoring it tells the child the behavior is OK. They may not get what they want (which "modern" thinking will tell you teaches them the ineffectiveness,) but they also have no negative consequence. You can't simply ignore the behavior and believe it will go away because they supposedly will learn its ineffectiveness. They WILL keep doing it if they face nothing unpleasant for it.

    Spanking is not beating. There is a difference! Beating a child for any infraction is abuse, and spanking in rage is beating. However, when experienced as a clear consequence of specific action or behavior, spanking is an effective method of showing that the action or behavior is incorrect. It should never be done in rage, but as immediately as possible following the improper behavior, i.e. none of this "You just wait till your daddy gets home!"

    If you want to see a real and absolutely measurable difference in a society with spanking and a society without, visit any middle school in the country. Schools are among my customers in the networking business, and I am astonished at the behavior the kids show in class, and there's nothing the teachers can do about it. The difference? The principals and vice principals don't have paddles any more.

    Parents don't discipline their kids, and they don't allow the schools to discipline their kids.
     
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  30. DrAE86

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    @TenEightyOne
    WHAT THE FLYING :censored:, MATE! RAPED? WHAT THE HELL? Do you have ANY idea that "a trip behind the shed" is NOTHING SEXUAL, you bloody idiot! What the :censored: is wrong with you people? Everything nowadays is completely sexualized! Slapping your litte :censored: in the face is NO ABUSE! Beating them for enjoyment or stress release is, the other thing isn't. You have to teach children a little bit of discipline and you KNOW you can't achieve that with fluffy words, right?
     
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