Spoilers (a special topic)

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VIPFREAK

VIPFREAK

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Spoilers... no not movie spoilers, car spoilers. So why do people think they make cars "ricey"? I mean ok so yeah obviously they don't do jack squat on non-race car but if a car has a spoiler on it they don't all look "ricey", not to mention there are some stock cars that come with one that are pretty bad too. I've always been a fan of the "t" design because the post come up from the center. The point is they give the car a little more personality and looks decent still.

This is what I ment by "t" design... actually this is how I'd have my car look.

Mike_AE92.jpg


This is a simple one too.

ae86-levin.jpg
 
While I'm continuously making a positive or negative impact for GTPlanet let me speak on this, alright? Here I go. This may be a big one, so bear with John boy, alright?

To me, spoilers and stuff don't mean a car is "ricey." And keep in mind, there are rear AND front spoilers. I think the reason why people tend to think they are for the "rice" crowd is because the drivers obviously see their ride as something that is faster than it's supposed to be. Now keep in mind, I am an artist, so almost anything I see can be art. But if you ask me, fancy spoilers and stuff don't mean a car is meaningless. It's more about the heart of the driver who owns the car. So if someone sees a car as a special piece of machinery, he or she will look to make it appear hot. Whether it is a simple design, or a double-element GT racing wing (like on the Oreca Viper GTS-R), some people think that people care too much about car apperance than what the car is actually capable of. I mean, when you look at a 1957 Corvette or a 1932 Willys, you know that it can get attention without even trying. But in today's world of sporty looks and turn-on-a-dime "econo-boxes," some people, especially racers and horsepower enthusiasts think that those who slap on spoilers want to be noticed.

But let me tell you something. If a person is racing with a special wing on the back and it helps the aerodynamics, keep it on. If a person just wants to look good on the street, let them. I don't think cars should be so regular. Sure, dragons and neon green would murder a Mustang, but I think a car is a reflection of a person's character. If there is a car someone likes, that person should cherish and care for it like it was his/her girlfriend or wife/boyfriend or husband. A damned spoiler does not mean the car is a ricer. Why people say that about them, I don't know. Okay, so a stock Civic can't outrun a stock Corvette ZO6. But you can't expect every last car on earth to win stoplight battles. Just look at the future tuning classic, the Scion Xb. It's boxy and wasn't meant for V8-killing power. And it's not about the person trying to LOOK fast than go fast, it's just about the driver's ambitions and character. Some people just want to look good, even if they can't afford a real sports car. Like on Motorweek one time about the Porsche 911 GT3, John Davis said "...and unlike the cars at the high school parking lot, the GT3's wing is actually functional." Well, that's because a Porsche is a real sports car while those "high schoolers" have cars that just want to be noticed. I'm sick of all the stereotyping against them. I mean, so what? "Kids" back in the 1950s and 1960s had Mustangs and Camaros and Fairlanes. I mean, so what? What the youth got into years ago is no different from today. Just that this is the new youth market. Anyhow, a spoiler doesn't kill a car. So anyhow, answer me this. If high schoolers own cars that are "riced out," name me anyone around age 18 who owns a Porsche or a Ferrari and has the knowledge to tune them to perfection? I thought so. So one last time, spoilers don't kill cars. Wear some diapers and grow up.

With that said, my "editorial" is done. There are many reasons. I just can't give them all out.
 
It depends on the car. I wanted one on my RS. BAD. I got it on, then sold it. Now I want the one on my WRX off. Go figure, eh?
 
Hmm... interesting that your put ricey with 18 yr olds. I've seen "ricey" cars where the owner was in their 30's or 40's. It's also funny that you make the comment like only older people own a porsche. I didn't know I was offending you but I was just making the argument of not all spoilers make a car "ricey", not who or what age they are that makes it "ricey". Anyway, I believe from a safety stand point in the end it's better if a car as advanced as porsche is kept away from an 18 yr old.

I don't want to get into and off topic debate about my views vs. your views but pretty much since I started driving I've been more concerned about me the person being in control and knowing the car that I'm driving, not what kind of car it is I'm driving. Winning is not everything especially when people think racing on public streets are. I never cared to have a high hp car, rather a car that I can do things efficently like get on the freeway wondering if I have enough power so people don't run me over.
 
A spoiler/wing can serve three primary purposes.

a) reduce drag on the car by smoothing out airflow
b) create downforce/reduce lift and promote high speed grip/stability
c) look racy

If it does a) and/or b), I'm all for it. If it does a), b) AND c), I'm still for it.

If it does ONLY c) then its rice.

85% of spoilers out there are only good for c).

EDIT:Actually, I need to make correction. A wing that creates downforce by definition also creates drag. You cannot have both a) and b), they are mutually exclusive.


M
 
Well VipFREAK, what did you think about my claims about the American youth market of the past? But to me, slapping on a spoiler on a car is like putting on a tie for a male, and then maybe a brooch to a woman's career outfit. In other words, no big deal. Especially if the person is not serious in making a car a racer.

I never thought I would mention this, but why not? Someone 21 years or younger must be insane to drive a car that is much too advanced. For us American youth, inexpensive cars like in the NFS: Underground and Tokyo Xtreme Racer series. I mean, because a person owns a car never meant to outrun a muscle or pony car doesn't mean that the person should be put down. Look. I've said this in dozens of threads before. Just because a person tunes up a small car (versus a Mustang or Corvette, and don't forget. There are SOME Mustang tuners) to make it perform doesn't mean they should be belittled. Think about the Mini Cooper. A fun-to-drive car that people still wanted to hot rod. And look at the cult that followed it. Even to this day, the little car is STILL a hot find. But then, some people think that they don't want a pure sportscar, so they're modding these others up because they love the car they bought off the lot and tuned it to make it perfect. Not perfect for everyone, perfect for the driver. Now I can go on and on about tuner parts, but I choose not to.

Basically, I think a spoiler doesn't make a car rice. I mean, what about the late-model Camaro, the 2003 Mustang, or even the Viper? They have spoilers for looks, so why b*tch about Honda and Toyota tuners? What? Do such people think these sport compacts have iddentity crises? Do they think the owners of less powerful cars try too hard at being faster than they are supposed to be? And if you ask me, I say it again. the spoilers and stuff are for artistic purposes UNLESS the person uses it as a racer. Some people just want to make their streetcar more attractive. Some people don't really care about being an 11-second streetcar with something under $20,000 EVEN THE SRT-4, which is $20K and change. These machines weren't built to outrun freaking Porsches. Damn it to hell, man! Some people are just mad that Japanese cars and Euro imports are the new wave of automobile for America. I mean, you can't expect a car to compete with the bigger cars. It's like Anthony Tarver saying he can knock out Mike Tyson in 45 seconds of the first round. It's not going to happen no matter how many Budweisers Tarver drinks before a boxing match. People tune cars to be as perfect as THEY want it, not to outrun a 5.0. And a spoiler doesn't kill a car. It just means that a person has no respect for the owner's tastes in his/her car. That's me. More reasons why in future posts.
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
A spoiler/wing can serve three primary purposes.

a) reduce drag on the car by smoothing out airflow
b) create downforce/reduce lift and promote high speed grip/stability
c) look racy

If it does a) and/or b), I'm all for it. If it does a), b) AND c), I'm still for it.

If it does ONLY c) then its rice.

85% of spoilers out there are only good for c).
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^^^^^
Correct. The amount of downforce most of the JC Whitney bolt-ons generates is calculated like this: DF = mass of wing X force of gravity.

The reason they are disliked is that they are all about posing. The bigger the wing, the bigger the poseur. Why would you want to be noticed for being a fake?

A small, modest wing can provide a bit of detail to finish off the back deck of a car, a sort of visual "full-stop" to mark the edge of the car. That's fine as far as it goes, but 9 times out of 10 when I see a quote personalized unquote car, that has been customized using the usual stick-on bits, there is some huge thing that looks like a giant disposable razor or maybe one of the Transformers' helmets stuck on back there. I mean, a Cat-In-The-Hat top hat will get you noticed, too, but is that really what you are looking for? A nicely customized car without a wing is much cleaner and draws my appreciative attention, not my point-and-laugh attention.

People who get indignant about being called a ricer need to understand a little bit more about real performance. A performance person will happily spend 2 hours taking 10 excess pounds off of a 2600-lb car, as many times as they can. I happily ditched my A/C to shave 35 pounds off the nose weight of my ACR. So we are totally unable to appreciate the idea of adding weight to a car, especially not for something that does not enhance the mission capability of the car in any way (and probably hurts).

You mention that most 18 year olds don't know much about tuning cars... so why don't they learn, instead of reading Super Street and obsessing over chassis and engine codes?

And out of curiosity, what's with all these "Special Topics"? Why are they "Special", and why the need to call it out in the title?
 
Originally posted by neon_duke

And out of curiosity, what's with all these "Special Topics"? Why are they "Special", and why the need to call it out in the title?
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I just threw that in because everyone else was... but I'm kinda wondering about it too. :D

As for everyone else comments, I think I'll quit while I'm ahead... It's about 7:30a.m. and I haven't slept yet so I'm not really in a thinking mood anyways. Thanks for your comments though.
 
I think spoilers are ok as long as they are not like to APC spoilers and stuff because they are too big and looks ssometimes stupid and probably wont perform well so i would just stick to the factory stock spoiler.
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
A spoiler/wing can serve three primary purposes.

a) reduce drag on the car by smoothing out airflow
b) create downforce/reduce lift and promote high speed grip/stability
c) look racy

If it does a) and/or b), I'm all for it. If it does a), b) AND c), I'm still for it.

If it does ONLY c) then its rice.

85% of spoilers out there are only good for c).

EDIT:Actually, I need to make correction. A wing that creates downforce by definition also creates drag. You cannot have both a) and b), they are mutually exclusive.


M
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I tend to seperate in my head this way - wings provide downforce and spoilers reducing drag. Why the difference? A wing is an aerodynamic shape, therefore providing either lift or downforce, depending on orietnation. A spoiler provides no lift or downforce (if you look at spoilers either they are "one sided" or two sided but without the standard wing shape. The spoiler is "supposed" to disturb airflow and reduce the low pressure void behind a speeding vehicle. With the reduction in that low pressure area, it reduces "suction" AKA drag. With that in mind, I have seen little to no difference in fuel economy in vehicles equipped with spoilers to the same vehicle not equipped with a spoiler.

less drag = better fuel ecomony, or at least it SHOULD be that way.

Knowing me, I confused low pressure and high pressure today. I need food.
 
My opinion, bigger the spoiler, the more it spoils the cars looks. But im all for big spoilers if they are functional e.g. Those big-a$$ ones on the 7k-8k bhp Top Fuel dragsters.

Just thought i'd share my little contribution.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Wow. This truly is a (SPECIAL TOPIC).
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I'm thinking it might also qualify as Important please read material as well.
 
I don't mind spoilers, it's that I just can't stand seeing massive rear wings on FF cars. This is because 1) Unless you drive something close to a top fuel dragster, you don't need a massive rear wing and for 2) A rear wing on an FF car is the worst possible body mod from a performance standpoint. All they do is remove grip from the tires that need it. I don't mind small, attractive spoilers on FF cars, but something like a F1 wing is just overdoing it, especially on compact cars since they just 'overpower' the car's looks. The massive rear wing works for a 800hp Supra (both looks and performance wise), but it does not work for a 150hp Corolla.
 
Originally posted by pimp racer
I think spoilers are ok as long as they are not like to APC spoilers and stuff because they are too big and looks ssometimes stupid and probably wont perform well so i would just stick to the factory stock spoiler.
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Thanks for adding your incomprehensible opinion.
 
Originally posted by Ev0
I don't mind spoilers, it's that I just can't stand seeing massive rear wings on FF cars. This is because 1) Unless you drive something close to a top fuel dragster, you don't need a massive rear wing and for 2) A rear wing on an FF car is the worst possible body mod from a performance standpoint. All they do is remove grip from the tires that need it. I don't mind small, attractive spoilers on FF cars, but something like a F1 wing is just overdoing it, especially on compact cars since they just 'overpower' the car's looks. The massive rear wing works for a 800hp Supra (both looks and performance wise), but it does not work for a 150hp Corolla.
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I personally hate, I mean hate with a passion, posers with wings on there cars (The aluminium kind) that have no purpose. That being said here is a quote from a guy who knows his stuff from another message board

Originally posted by Chris V
Spoilers on DRAG cars are installed to help rear traction under accelleration. Spoilkers on ROAD race cars are desicgned to keep teh rear in place in hard cornering.

Why do people ONLY assume a rear spoler is for accelleration???????


A FWD car in particular, generally has a situation during cornering called "lift throttle oversteer" which is when the driver lets off the throttle and hits the brakes when entering a corner, and the weight of the car is transferred forward. This makes the rear of the car light, and causes it to slide around. What this means is that a FWD road racer would have to slow down earlier in a straight line, to a lower speed before entering the corner.

A rear spoiler allows them to wait longer before slowing down, because when the finally do lift off the throttle, and/or hit the brakes in the corner, the rear end stays planted. This increases cornering speed, thus making the car faster overall (setting lower lap times, as they can carry more speed into and through the corner).

The lower the speed the wing needs to work at, the larger it needs to be to provide the desired effect. The higher the top speed, the smaller the wing needs to be to do the job.

In most cases, the reason those tuner bolt on rear spoilers are so large is because they have to be to work at street speeds... (In the rare case that the car owner installed it in a manner that allows it to function, or even knows how to make it functional).

[/B]
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Hiya! :D :O :lol:

I agree what JohnBM01 posted on this thread. I am going to try to also get my opinion in, but I am afraid it will be just soo similar or EXACT like John's. Here I go!

Can we all just..be happy with one another and our own cars? or get along? :O I just believe that people should just be happy with what they have and take responsibility to do what you like with their own car. It is very exciting indeed when a teenager gets his/her first car. Some treat the car like "regular" and some treat it poorly and some treat them like ME! Like my COMPULSIVE behavior my mommie always say "ARE YOU CLEANING YOU CAR AGAIN? :rolleyes: How many times do you need to clean that Car of yours? Well thats ME! Anyways, yea so when you get a car that is yours, it feels GREAT! And likely what comes into mind for people who like racing or Gran Turismo etc, is finding ideas of what you wanna put in and on your car. It s very common of course for high schoolers to get Air Intake, Air Filter and a muffler. And they like it! Put new rims and spoiler too. Its just the excitement we all get when getting our car at times, but it sure does hurt our feelings when someone comes down and say how *S-word* your car is...and spoiler seem to be the one thing in appearance that WILL get attention from people, especially the BIG ONES! :eek: I look at all these things people mod and put onto the car's exterior is like what John said, to express themself. And to me, its like just to make your car look cooler in your own opinion of how you like it and just to be happy with what you have. :D :O :lol:
 
004.jpg


My spoiler is bigger than yours!

You can tell how fast a 911 is by the size of it's wing :p

There are actually two types of spoilers:

1) Those that look good.
2) Those that don't.

The majority of aftermarket ones end up falling under 2.
 
To sum it quickly, you either choose a spoiler of form or function. Popularity v. performance.

FYI trail braking only works by tapping your brakes, not flooring it.
 
Originally posted by Altar000Altar
Originally posted by Chris V
Spoilers on DRAG cars are installed to help rear traction under accelleration. Spoilkers on ROAD race cars are desicgned to keep teh rear in place in hard cornering.

Why do people ONLY assume a rear spoler is for accelleration???????


A FWD car in particular, generally has a situation during cornering called "lift throttle oversteer" which is when the driver lets off the throttle and hits the brakes when entering a corner, and the weight of the car is transferred forward. This makes the rear of the car light, and causes it to slide around. What this means is that a FWD road racer would have to slow down earlier in a straight line, to a lower speed before entering the corner.

A rear spoiler allows them to wait longer before slowing down, because when the finally do lift off the throttle, and/or hit the brakes in the corner, the rear end stays planted. This increases cornering speed, thus making the car faster overall (setting lower lap times, as they can carry more speed into and through the corner).

The lower the speed the wing needs to work at, the larger it needs to be to provide the desired effect. The higher the top speed, the smaller the wing needs to be to do the job.

In most cases, the reason those tuner bolt on rear spoilers are so large is because they have to be to work at street speeds... (In the rare case that the car owner installed it in a manner that allows it to function, or even knows how to make it functional).

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Interesting, I never thought of it that way. But considering how much oversteer FF cars have based on experience in GT3, I would think that having the rear end kept a little loose might aid handling in some FF cars, but I guess it depends on the car (especially weight distribution).
 
I'm usually opposed to aftermarket wings of cars, usually because they're some cheapass aluminum wing on some FF car. However, I will, at some point, be putting a real GT wing on my S14. (Probably my Silvia when I get it, when I'm in Japan). It's going to be a proper carbon fiber, contured, wing tuned properly so that it actually correctly creates high speed stability and helps airflow over the car. And, of course, the car will have the mods to back the wing up, coilovers, I/E of course, upgraded turbo and ECU, and so on. It'll probably make about 275-300 HP when I'm through with it, so the wing will have a purpose. Especially on those Wangan cruises...
 
A FWD car in particular, generally has a situation during cornering called "lift throttle oversteer" which is when the driver lets off the throttle and hits the brakes when entering a corner, and the weight of the car is transferred forward. This makes the rear of the car light, and causes it to slide around. What this means is that a FWD road racer would have to slow down earlier in a straight line, to a lower speed before entering the corner.

A rear spoiler allows them to wait longer before slowing down, because when the finally do lift off the throttle, and/or hit the brakes in the corner, the rear end stays planted. This increases cornering speed, thus making the car faster overall (setting lower lap times, as they can carry more speed into and through the corner).
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Meh. I don't track FWD cars, but I'm highly skeptical of this approach. In most cases, it'd be easier to cure excessive lift-throttle oversteer by increasing front shock stiffness or spring rates, or introduce anti-dive geometry into the front suspension.

Besides which, FF racers desire and NEED a certain amount of lift-throttle oversteer to rotate the car and counteract the power-on UNDERsteer when they track out.

But I'd like to have neon_duke's take on FF wing applications.


In most cases, the reason those tuner bolt on rear spoilers are so large is because they have to be to work at street speeds...
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Now this is just plain funny. :lol:


M
 
Originally posted by retsmah
All of the BTCC cars have pretty large rear spoilers, I can't imagine they are doing it for looks :p
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They have front wings too, which create FRONT download. A properly designed race car will have a balanced aerodynamic package front AND rear.

I'm not saying FWD race cars don't need or can't use a wing. Downforce is almost always useful ... on a race car. I'm simply skeptical that its required to cure handling problems that can easily be fixed by tuning the suspension properly.

And trying to justify a real aero-package for a street car that sees no time at the track is pretty useless, IMO. Generic GT wings that are supposed to make download at speed is negative value added 99% of the time on a street car.


M
 
I think a person looking into making a FWD or low-powered RWD machine should look at some of the SPEED World Challenge machinery. You got the (FF first), Acura RSX, Mazda Protoge (or have they raced a 6 or a 3 yet?), and I think the Civic is still raced. Now on to FR. Corvette, Morgan Aero 8 GT, and Viper to name a few. To me, I think a "kid" getting into modding cars for racing don't really consider fully engineering a car to make it work. Like when you look at someone who mods a Camaro to be a better drag racer, they dyno the car out, maybe look at aerodynamics, airflow, and stuff. But like I said, who within the age range of 13-21 actually thinks about all of that? Do you think the dudes in "Initial D" think their car is perfect for racing? But here is something I'd say out of the ordinary. If you're building your car for speed and control, get a functional GT wing. If you're out for looks, maybe get a non-functional spoiler.

My girl McLaren ("hiya, McLaren!) proved some of my points right. And while I'm continuously getting ranted on GTPlanet like I'm Jeff Gordon at Talladega this year (or worse), I think my boy Pimp Racer made a nice point as well, saying that APC spoilers can be quite tacky and pointless for a car. Hell Patrol proved a nice point on people calling any such thing "rice" that they dislike. So, how does this apply to the Mustang tuners? After all, the American pony car has some tuners. Don't think the tuner scene is all Hondas and Toyotas. If anyone has a vision and money, that person will screw up a car any we he/she sees fit. So why spoilers? For looks- for daily drivers. For aerodyamics- for racers.

How about you?
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Meh. I don't track FWD cars, but I'm highly skeptical of this approach. In most cases, it'd be easier to cure excessive lift-throttle oversteer by increasing front shock stiffness or spring rates, or introduce anti-dive geometry into the front suspension.

Besides which, FF racers desire and NEED a certain amount of lift-throttle oversteer to rotate the car and counteract the power-on UNDERsteer when they track out.

But I'd like to have neon_duke's take on FF wing applications.
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You're exactly right, ///M. First, Showroom Stock and Improved Touring rules both prohibit or severely restrict what you can do aerodynamically. If you move up a notch on the preparation ladder to the popular Speed World Challenge touring class, the FWD drivers (almost said "guys", but with Shauna Marinus in there, I can't) tend to run a small, low, adjustable rear wing on the order of 500 square inches or so, balanced with a splitter/dam extension in the front. This does indeed keep the rear planted under trail braking for the tighter turns or decreasing-radius sweepers.

You are correct in the analysis of FWD suspension adjustments too - some of the advantages the ACR had over its Showroom Stock competitors was the factory-installed Koni Sport struts, which were adjustable for camber and single-adjustable for stiffness, and a rear swaybar when most competitors had none. The Neon guys ran the rears full firm and zero camber, with the fronts about 25% firm and the maximum legal -2.4 degrees camber up front. Some even stepped down from the 22mm front bar found on the ACR to the standard 20mm bar, but most found that a bit much.

The thing is, even a well-designed wing isn't going to generate much but drag until you get in the ballpark of 100+ mph. Below that, a lip spoiler is more beneficial, and even that effect falls off very quickly as speed gets down to highway velocity.

I think the biggest indicator that aerodynamics don't play much role at street/highway speeds is autocross, which you know better than I do. You don't see many non-stock wings at all until you get into the Modified cars, and even big lip spoilers don't show up until the Prepared classes. At typical Stock or Street Prepared speeds, you're just not generating useful force.
Now this is just plain funny. :lol:
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Indeed. While I do not have the exact formula to hand, the velocity/area/downforce equation is at least a square law, meaning to generate the same amount of downforce at half the speed, you'd need at least 4 times the wing area, if not more... For any kind of effectiveness at highway speeds, we all need to investigate sprint car wings!
 
Good stuff, Duke. Would you happen to know what an SCCA IT spec wing actually makes in download @100mph? I searched around, but can't seem to find any details.

BTW, I read on the SRT-4 board that someone semi-scientifically deduced the SRT-4 factory wing makes less than 50 lbs at 120 mph. He did it by driving around with an open trunk and noted when the wind finally closed the lid. :lol:


M
 
well, this is seems to be a matter of personal taste really. I think anyone with half a brain realizes that spoilers on street cars are really useless. and the best looking one are usually provided by the factory (that's just my opinion.) and yeah, that was hilarious what that guy said about "needing to operate at street speeds"!!:lol: :lol: puh-leez! most of the drivers in question only race in straight lines if they race at all. i agree with ///M and neon_duke about most of this. but personally i do point and laugh at the hondas with whale tails!!!!
 

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