Sport Tires: Hard

[4DSC]

This is to the more experienced guys who actually DRIVE a car in real life. Just have a quick question thats been really bothering me in this game and the past GT games as well. Ok, so most of the high performance street cars you get in GT5 come with the sport tires: hard. And those are drag radials judging by the picture. Made for the track. Now, in real life most of these cars come with comfort: soft type tires judging by the picture provided in GT.

Regardless of either of these tires, why is it that you have to be extremely gentle on the accelerator even in the turns? For example I was driving the SRT10 Coupe Viper, which I just bought. It came with Sport tires: hard, but why on earth cant I go flat out on high speed turns without the damn thing oversteering? Your telling me that an owner of a Viper who puts drag radials on his car and goes to the track, doesn't go flat out on high speed turns like the ones at Suzuka for example? I have to let go of the throttle at over a 100mph or the car wants to oversteer. Isn't that something you DONT do during high speed driving? Dont let off? I heard thats how you spin out. But my point is, why is the car oversteering on high speed turns with tires that should be really grippy in theory? Im not in 1st or second gear in these turns. It's like Im in 4th turning, and the back end wants to kick out. I don't believe thats the case in real life.

And as far as the comfort: softs go.. I mean come on, seriously? Why do they feel like your driving on ice with them? Yeah noobs will say, why cant I make a turn with these tires? But you actually can, but it's the higher speed turns where the car begins to slide like on ice. What kinda bs is that? I've done high speed driving in real life, and you get alot more grip from all seasons then you do from these comfort softs that apparently come on sports cars in real life. Am I wrong about this?

 

[aadil717]

Well have you ever driven a SRT10 with the traction control off? If you have then I don't think I need to answer your question.
The car will oversteer due to the amount of power and force put on the back wheels from the engine, in real life people don't drive as fast round bends as in the game, they're more cautious, unless they are a very confident individual who is capable of high speed corners - ie racing drivers.
This is just a game so it's not accurate to real life no matter how much it may seem, it's still a simulator, real life adrenaline, vibrations, sense of speed and other factors don't affect you mentally or physical ability in a game.

P.S I've never driven a SRT10 but have experience in BMWs in the wet and traction control off in the dry, I'm guessing it would account to comforts with all aids off in this game.

 

[chuyler1]

Watch some videos on Youtube of the viper like this one...



It isn't difficult to get the rear end to step out IRL. It is true that lifting off too much IRL is dangerous as it takes weight off the rear tires. Wide open throttle during hard, high speed cornering is risky in any vehicle IRL too, especially one that has no downforce. The key to driving it fast is knowing what speed you need to be going for a corner and applying even throttle.

But anyway, the game is not real life. It has a very simplified view of tires. It may not account for the fact that a viper has wider rear tires and traction control to prevent the driver from doing anything stupid. Traction control in the game is much different, it rarely kicks in at high speed so turning it on won't help you in your high speed corners.

 

[aadil717]

Watch some videos on Youtube of the viper like this one...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeEBrOx12uQ">YouTube Link</a>

It isn't difficult to get the rear end to step out IRL. It is true that lifting off too much IRL is dangerous as it takes weight off the rear tires. Wide open throttle during hard, high speed cornering is risky in any vehicle IRL too, especially one that has no downforce. The key to driving it fast is knowing what speed you need to be going for a corner and applying even throttle.

But anyway, the game is not real life. It has a very simplified view of tires. It may not account for the fact that a viper has wider rear tires and traction control to prevent the driver from doing anything stupid. Traction control in the game is much different, it rarely kicks in at high speed so turning it on won't help you in your high speed corners.

I think chuyler1's post has pretty much concluded your question, I totally agree with him and hope we helped and answered your question.

 

[Corpsey]

I find the sports hard tires to be fine with the higher end cars. In fact, the viper srt10 coupe '06 comes with Michelin sports tires.. and most FR muscle cars that have high HP and torque at low rpms will have that effect where you have to be very careful with the throttle because they just have such immense power in such a condensed engine turnover period simply due to the massive amount of displacement per turnover. 8+L V10 is pretty damn serious power.. enough to make the wheels turn faster than the friction can prevent them.. especially on a vehicle that has weight distributed off the wheels that are trying to propel it. In 4th gear though? it's questionable, but I find that in GT5 there's no sports mode button, so all the cars that you drive are automatically engaged in "sport mode" so to speak, so they're not in any way limited to how well they perform.

 

[Exorcet]

The most incorrect, biased, and fixed video ever produced. It might as well be a video of paint drying on a fence because that would provide as much truthful info on the Viper as that video does.

Anyway, yes, sports tires don't mean infinite grip. And if they were drag radials, I wouldn't expect much from them in the corners, but the thing is trying to infer things from the generic tread pattern isn't a good idea.

A tire has a traction circle. It can only generate so much force. Exceed that force and the tires slip. A Viper might can hold a 100 mph turn just fine if it's sized correctly, but step on the gas and you increase the demand on the tire. You can no longer keep going in the circle, because the circle took 100% of your traction in the first place. One of two things happen:

1. Understeer off track.

2. Oversteer off track.



BTW, the Viper has no TC (sadly the government is forcing the next Viper to have it) and 100 lb of downforce at 150 mph according to Dodge. It's at the tail, specifically to prevent high speed oversteer.

 

[chuyler1]

The most incorrect, biased, and fixed video ever produced. It might as well be a video of paint drying on a fence because that would provide as much truthful info on the Viper as that video does.

I didn't actually listen to the video since I'm at work, I just posted it to demonstrate the Viper stepping out...and it was the first one i found. Feel free to find a better video of a high speed oversteering Viper that does not include a biased review.

 

[mykem]

This is to the more experienced guys who actually DRIVE a car in real life. Just have a quick question thats been really bothering me in this game and the past GT games as well. Ok, so most of the high performance street cars you get in GT5 come with the sport tires: hard. And those are drag radials judging by the picture. Made for the track. Now, in real life most of these cars come with comfort: soft type tires judging by the picture provided in GT.

Regardless of either of these tires, why is it that you have to be extremely gentle on the accelerator even in the turns? For example I was driving the SRT10 Coupe Viper, which I just bought. It came with Sport tires: hard, but why on earth cant I go flat out on high speed turns without the damn thing oversteering? Your telling me that an owner of a Viper who puts drag radials on his car and goes to the track, doesn't go flat out on high speed turns like the ones at Suzuka for example? I have to let go of the throttle at over a 100mph or the car wants to oversteer. Isn't that something you DONT do during high speed driving? Dont let off? I heard thats how you spin out. But my point is, why is the car oversteering on high speed turns with tires that should be really grippy in theory? Im not in 1st or second gear in these turns. It's like Im in 4th turning, and the back end wants to kick out. I don't believe thats the case in real life.

And as far as the comfort: softs go.. I mean come on, seriously? Why do they feel like your driving on ice with them? Yeah noobs will say, why cant I make a turn with these tires? But you actually can, but it's the higher speed turns where the car begins to slide like on ice. What kinda bs is that? I've done high speed driving in real life, and you get alot more grip from all seasons then you do from these comfort softs that apparently come on sports cars in real life. Am I wrong about this?

Are you using a FFB steering wheel? If you are then I recommend turning it as high as you possibly can (in my case that means @ 10). In real life you get a lot of feedback telling you when the tires about to give in but in driving/racing sims you have to rely on the feedback you're getting from the steering wheel.

Now that we've established that, you need to understand that there are other factors that contribute to how fast and how well a car can take a corner. One of them being weight shift. To simply put it a car with a front engine will easily lose rear end traction especially if the weight has shifted to the front of the car eg. when you brake into a turn and then accelerate, all the weight is still at the front of the car hence losing rear end grip.

There's also constant shift of weight between the four tires either via braking, turning and undulation of the road. At low speed things like this is incidental but as you go faster it becomes enormously important that you're aware of the car's weight distribution. The best race driver learn this thing from early on and it's the reason Karting (or Go-Kart) is a good foundation since it's light enough that you can feel your own body weight shifting.

So essentially, there's more to grip than just tires.

 

[shirakawaa]

Generally speaking (haven't tried that Viper yet) I find that the tail-happy behavior of many sports cars in GT5 seems to be due to excessively aggressive LSD settings rather than lack of tire grip. If you install a custom LSD and decrease the acceleration setting to low values (around 8 or less) most cars will behave in a saner way, with a more realistic hint of oversteer when flooring the throttle pedal when cornering and not overdoing it.

Personally, I believe PD made some mistakes in choosing default LSD settings. Why would the aggressively oversteering behavior under acceleration of most FR sports cars in GT5 be almost completely corrected (not eliminated) with more conservative LSD settings otherwise? In GT5 it feels like engine torque will want to go mostly on the outside driving tire. This does not seem right to me. Most street-legal cars in RL tend to do the opposite (causing an initial understeering tendency, although oversteer might eventually come later), because that's where there the least grip when cornering.

 

[iamjajo]

My friend has an older Viper (I think it's an 05 or 06). It doesn't have traction control. Maybe the newer models do.

That car has tires as wide as Montana and can light them up with ease. It takes a gentle right foot to drive the car.

My sports cars are all equipped with traction control for very good reasons. My M3 still spun the tires when I mashed the throttle. It only had 414HP. The T/C reined it in after a few feet.

 

[chuyler1]

yes, i was going to mention the LSD earlier but since we were talking about a stock car i figured i'd leave it be to avoid confusion. In any case, SHIRAKAWA is right. The default LSD values in the game are simply too aggressive for sports tires and often cause too much outside wheelspin. Even cars with stock LSDs are often too aggressive once any power mods are installed. Unless you are watching the rpm gauge surge in 2nd and 3rd gear it is often best to leave the LSD off completely since it usually causes understeer followed by snap oversteer on most FR/MR cars. If you must have it, then setting the initial to 5-7 and accel to 15-20 is all that is necessary to quell any inside wheelspin you might be experiencing.

 

[Bottoz]

4DSC - Drag Radials should not be used on a road course. They usually have very soft sidewalls and are designed to run at lower tire pressures.

As for the Viper stepping out on you... well, it will happen IRL. Even on R-compound tires. Even on higher speed turns. Driving on GT5 Racing Softs has ruined people's impressions on tires.

I would equate All Season tires to GT5 Comfort Hard. Comfort Soft would be a decent Summer Tire.

 

[balang_479]

The picture does indeed show drag radials (semi-slicks) but there is no such distinction in GT5.
The Sport Hard tire represents a grip level that is equal to that of high performance street radials (Advan Neova, RE070S, RE01R, pirelli p-zero corsa as mounted on performance cars) and hard compound Semi-slicks. So i wouldnt say that i wouldnt compare them to a soft compound semislick that people mount on as track day tires.

A normal sport tire would be equal to a Comfort soft, the high performance street radials really do perform well, just not like sticky semi-slicks (Sport Soft).

 

[balang_479]

Double

 

[CSLACR]

I find the sports hard tires to be fine with the higher end cars. In fact, the viper srt10 coupe '06 comes with Michelin sports tires.. and most FR muscle cars that have high HP and torque at low rpms will have that effect where you have to be very careful with the throttle because they just have such immense power in such a condensed engine turnover period simply due to the massive amount of displacement per turnover. 8+L V10 is pretty damn serious power.. enough to make the wheels turn faster than the friction can prevent them.. especially on a vehicle that has weight distributed off the wheels that are trying to propel it. In 4th gear though? it's questionable, but I find that in GT5 there's no sports mode button, so all the cars that you drive are automatically engaged in "sport mode" so to speak, so they're not in any way limited to how well they perform.

I believe they are 50/50 on weight distribution.

Now, as per OP, the standard (non-ACR) SRT Viper spins tires very easily, and quite frankly, I somewhat agree with your point, it comes from a lower revving powerband, and GT5's "simulation" of "no downforce".
Any car with a "good" powerband, peaking at earlier rpm's has infinite wheel spin issues in GT5, as does any car that is listed at "0/0" stock downforce.

Whereas IRL, downforce has very different effects then GT, and making power at "xxxx" rpm's doesn't actually make the wheels easier to spin per se.

A quick spin will show you the ACR, even with 100 more ponies and a bit less weight, can pretty much stomp and go on the same sports hard tires, but why? because it's powerband is centered at the highest rpm's, and it is credited with 10 front downforce, and presumebly 20-25 rear downforce.
So basically, it's just a victim of GT5's physics engine, which as I've said before, combines a great overall feel, but has many flaws within.

 

[Exorcet]

A quick spin will show you the ACR, even with 100 more ponies and a bit less weight, can pretty much stomp and go on the same sports hard tires, but why? because it's powerband is centered at the highest rpm's, and it is credited with 10 front downforce, and presumebly 20-25 rear downforce.
So basically, it's just a victim of GT5's physics engine, which as I've said before, combines a great overall feel, but has many flaws within.

I actually thought it might be the new diff that the Viper got in 2008, though it's hard to know if that is modeled in game.

I didn't actually listen to the video since I'm at work, I just posted it to demonstrate the Viper stepping out...and it was the first one i found. Feel free to find a better video of a high speed oversteering Viper that does not include a biased review.

Nothing against you, just the video. Though I thought it was the one where he raced the BMW. It's the same test, but it's caught off in your video. The segment you posted still isn't accurate, but it's not as laughable as a Z4 being able to keep on the same continent as the Viper around a race track.

 

[JDMKING13]

The Viper comes with Pilot Sport PS2 which is max performance summer tire. I have a league which I run with 8 of my buddies and it's very hardcore. Many max performance tires are considered CS In my league, however this tire would be considerd a SH (with exceptions) in my league It is a great tire. Tires such as Potenza RE-11 are SH with the option to be upgraded to be SM.( with exceptions) It would never be a SS tire, SS tires would be Advan A048, Pilot Cup etc. SH IMO are very good summer max performance tires, and extreme summer performance tires. I usally drive with CM and CS, So the viper handles fine IMO.

 

[CSLACR]

I actually thought it might be the new diff that the Viper got in 2008, though it's hard to know if that is modeled in game.

Given that almost nothing that makes an ACR an ACR was modeled in the game, I have to doubt it. In "Gran Turismo World" (Yes, it says that in the game) the ACR is basically the exact same car as an SRT-10, with some extra power, a different powerband, and a bit of programmed downforce that isn't adjustable.
I really don't think PD goes to far into depth for physics modelling for cars, I really really don't.

Though I do agree with the points above, I think "stock" lsd's in GT5 are to high.

 

[shirakawaa]

The Viper comes with Pilot Sport PS2 which is max performance summer tire. I have a league which I run with 8 of my buddies and it's very hardcore. Many max performance tires are considered CS In my league, however this tire would be considerd a SH (with exceptions) in my league It is a great tire. Tires such as Potenza RE-11 are SH with the option to be upgraded to be SM.( with exceptions) It would never be a SS tire, SS tires would be Advan A048, Pilot Cup etc. SH IMO are very good summer max performance tires, and extreme summer performance tires. I usally drive with CM and CS, So the viper handles fine IMO.

In GT5 comfort tires have vastly better performance on wet surfaces (provided that the realistic grip reduction setting is enabled) than sports tires. In addition, they are less precise and need more steering angle in order to give their maximum grip compared to them. This is consistent with the typical driving differences between summer treaded tires (=comfort tires) and semi-slick tires (= sports tires). In short, the latter in GT5 can't therefore be considered summer tires in my opinion.

The problem in GT5, however, is that while lateral grip appear to be mostly dependent on the fitted tire class, longitudinal grip (braking, accelerating) seems to take into account apparent tire size too (or at least, to a greater extent than with lateral grip). This is quite visible on vintage cars that have narrow tires: they visibly don't have much grip while braking (people mistake this with poor brakes, but that's the tires' fault) or accelerating, but lateral grip seems on par with more modern cars fitting the same tires.

This tire behavior imbalance, in addition to other inconsistencies, might be one the reasons why (in addition to wrong stock LSD settings, etc) some cars don't seem to behave as expected.

Bottom line: we need better tire physics. PD should get rid of the current arcade-like nine-class tiered system with hidden tire size info and fixed grip/wear multipliers and program something more realistic (like a proper "tire shop" where we can select tire type, size, etc of differing characteristics and prices as on real online tire stores?).

 

[chuyler1]

I again agree with all of that, including the tire shop idea...

...but i disagree about the lateral grip. Some older cars simply cannot carry the same corner speeds. Perhaps its their poor longitudinal grip that overheats the tires before turn in, but im more inclined to think they just suffer from skinny tires. One example is the Mercury Cougar compared to say the Chevy Camaro. The cougar is very quick in a straight line but understeers like nobody's business. Even when they are tuned to the same specs, i always fight for grip in the cougar.

 

[JDMKING13]

In GT5 comfort tires have vastly better performance on wet surfaces (provided that the realistic grip reduction setting is enabled) than sports tires. In addition, they are less precise and need more steering angle in order to give their maximum grip compared to them. This is consistent with the typical driving differences between summer treaded tires (=comfort tires) and semi-slick tires (= sports tires). In short, the latter in GT5 can't therefore be considered summer tires in my opinion.

The problem in GT5, however, is that while lateral grip appear to be mostly dependent on the fitted tire class, longitudinal grip (braking, accelerating) seems to take into account apparent tire size too (or at least, to a greater extent than with lateral grip). This is quite visible on vintage cars that have narrow tires: they visibly don't have much grip while braking (people mistake this with poor brakes, but that's the tires' fault) or accelerating, but lateral grip seems on par with more modern cars fitting the same tires.

This tire behavior imbalance, in addition to other inconsistencies, might be one the reasons why (in addition to wrong stock LSD settings, etc) some cars don't seem to behave as expected.

Bottom line: we need better tire physics. PD should get rid of the current arcade-like nine-class tiered system with hidden tire size info and fixed grip/wear multipliers and program something more realistic (like a proper "tire shop" where we can select tire type, size, etc of differing characteristics and prices as on real online tire stores?).

I agree with you we need a better tire physics, however I think I regulate tire selection in my league the best it can be. Going off your what you said about the water let's compare two tires in my league. The Pilot Sport PS2 which come on many super cars, ( 458) and Bridgestone Potenza RE050( 370Z) both are max summer tires. Because the PS2 are great tires for summer in my league they would be considerd SH,( only if it comes OEM with your car) In the rain a driver in my league would have the ability to change there PS2 tire to a rain intermidiate tire (only rain.) This is do to the great performance this tire displays in the rain.

Now we will discuss the RE050. This tire comes stock on many cars such as the 370Z, it is a max summer tire In my league this would be a CS tire. In the rain you would have to down grade to a CM because of the average performance in the rain.
I only do this to make up for the tire faults. Akira let me ask you if you joined my league what car would you use? You can only pick one, and build it as you would in reality. Just something fun I wanna know.

 

[shirakawaa]

I again agree with all of that, including the tire shop idea...

...but i disagree about the lateral grip. Some older cars simply cannot carry the same corner speeds. Perhaps its their poor longitudinal grip that overheats the tires before turn in, but im more inclined to think they just suffer from skinny tires. One example is the Mercury Cougar compared to say the Chevy Camaro. The cougar is very quick in a straight line but understeers like nobody's business. Even when they are tuned to the same specs, i always fight for grip in the cougar.

In GT5 tires seem to suffer much from weight load. In other words, the heavier the car, the quicker tires overheat. This appears to be correct but again, in real life tires have different load ratings, and there are also models made for coping with heavy loads. These differences aren't in GT5, so probably on some front heavy cars with soft suspensions tires overheat too quickly. Turn-in overheating due to reduced longitudinal grip as you mention might also be a factor.

Anyway, I just tried a tuned 55 hp Fiat 500 with comfort soft tires and custom suspensions, and while it's able to break traction relatively easily when accelerating, it can still manage around 0.95-1.00 G sustained while cornering... and the real thing is supposed to have 125 mm wide tires!

I suspect that the tire system more than being entirely realistic, it's intended to be balanced between different tires. Longitudinal grip more or less reflects tire size, but the maximum sustained lateral grip seems to be mostly (although not entirely) dependent on the tire class.

I agree with you we need a better tire physics, however I think I regulate tire selection in my league the best it can be. Going off your what you said about the water let's compare two tires in my league. The Pilot Sport PS2 which come on many super cars, ( 458) and Bridgestone Potenza RE050( 370Z) both are max summer tires. Because the PS2 are great tires for summer in my league they would be considerd SH,( only if it comes OEM with your car) In the rain a driver in my league would have the ability to change there PS2 tire to a rain intermidiate tire (only rain.) This is do to the great performance this tire displays in the rain.

Intermediate rain tires are supposed to be a subset of racing tires in GT5, however. Compared to SH tires they might have eccessive grip, although I can't say I have much experience with them.

Now we will discuss the RE050. This tire comes stock on many cars such as the 370Z, it is a max summer tire In my league this would be a CS tire. In the rain you would have to down grade to a CM because of the average performance in the rain.
I only do this to make up for the tire faults. Akira let me ask you if you joined my league what car would you use? You can only pick one, and build it as you would in reality. Just something fun I wanna know.

I don't know the rules of your league, sorry.
For relatively average-low power (~200-250 hp) I'm partial to FF cars.

 

[JDMKING13]

In GT5 tires seem to suffer much from weight load. In other words, the heavier the car, the quicker tires overheat. This appears to be correct but again, in real life tires have different load ratings, and there are also models made for coping with heavy loads. These differences aren't in GT5, so probably on some front heavy cars with soft suspensions tires overheat too quickly. Turn-in overheating due to reduced longitudinal grip as you mention might also be a factor.

Anyway, I just tried a tuned 55 hp Fiat 500 with comfort soft tires and custom suspensions, and while it's able to break traction relatively easily when accelerating, it can still manage around 0.95-1.00 G sustained while cornering... and the real thing is supposed to have 125 mm wide tires!

I suspect that the tire system more than being entirely realistic, it's intended to be balanced between different tires. Longitudinal grip more or less reflects tire size, but the maximum sustained lateral grip seems to be mostly (although not entirely) dependent on the tire class.

Intermediate rain tires are supposed to be a subset of racing tires in GT5, however. Compared to SH tires they might have eccessive grip, although I can't say I have much experience with them.

I don't know the rules of your league, sorry.
For relatively average-low power (~200-250 hp) I'm partial to FF cars.

My league is in the work right now I was just asking you for fun what car would you choose, it can only be one. You would have to treat it as you would in real life. We try our best to mimic real parts when tunning in GT5, it a blast. With the tire topic I just did some quick laps around suzuka wet with the 458 and ran a 2:36 with the racing intermidate, 2:38 with CS and a 2.41 with CM. I know the title of the tire doesn't match GT5 description however I tried to match the tire with the performance of the GT5 tire.

Another example is my 350Z (USA) my tires are Bridegestone Potenza RE040 they are considerd CM in my league. I have no problem pushing the Z. I'm currently saving for some RE-11(SH stock tire size, SM with 2 sizes up). The 458 beat my Z dry time.(2:40)

 

[4DSC]

Sorry I couldn't contribute earlier to my thread, but great feedback guys, thanks. So what I got from this thread is the GT stock differential settings are way too loose, thats why many of the high power cars oversteer so much in corners.

But on the other hand, I still didn't get why many cars slip and slide like they are on ice. It's almost laughable how slippery they are to drive. It's not even an oversteer issue Im getting at. Just doing four wheel slides going into turns when I have comforts on. And it's not understeer. Its something totally different. A good example would be, lets say you oversteered a bit and had to regain control, so your fighting with the car to regain control, left to right, left to right, gently braking and gently giving throttle, but the thing is just slipping and sliding like your riding on an oil film or something.