Stage 2 turbo bette than stage 3?

[diegorborges]

You'll laugh on me but the Daihatsu Move SR-XX (2WD) with the mid-range turbo becomes very sneaky.

Try it. And you'll see... lots of mid-range torque. More than you could ever expect from that.

 

[happycorey]

I don't think torque means anything in GT5, in real life its everything but I really see no evidence that it has any effect in GT5

It makes more of a difference than you think. Take out a AMG C63 with 600hp, on Sports Hard, and then take out an LF-A with 600hp and let me know if there is a difference in torque. AMG will spin for days, while the LF-A might not even break loose at all

 

[Volk_Zadovsky]

So I looked at a high performance car (Jag XJ13 '66) And you gain 1 ft-lb of torque at a loss of 86 hp with stage 2 turbo, compared to 494 ft-lb torque and 688 hp with a stage 3 turbo. But you gain your power 500 rpm earlier with stage 2 turbo. I think it really depends on the track, if I was on the second race on of the historic cup I might go for the mid range turbo for the power to come 500 rpm sooner, compared to Le Mans where I would want the extra 86 hp to propel my car faster.
I then took a look at my Stratos rally car and it was the same case. Only a difference of 12 ft-lb torque and 30 hp, but all the power and torque comes 3000 rpm sooner. It seams the only time you would want to put a mid range if for street cars, or for AWD rally cars. Other than that you could always buy both turbos just in case your on a track where you need that power sooner.

...Ugh, I typed far too much meaningless crap...

 

[friedi]

would say depends on track many lowspeed cornors, better the stage 2 turbo

 

[analog]

Is low rpm ever useful in racing?

Ever heard of slow corners? Having plenty of mid-range grunt is quite useful, again it depends on which track, which car and which characteristics you prefer.
The price or performance figures isn't an indicator for the best choice in this case (as it is with some cars), both Stage 2 and 3 turbos offer something completely different in most cases.
For example, I tried both the Stage 2 and 3 turbo upgrades on the Peugeot 908, on an oval track like Indianapolis the Stage 3 probably makes more sense as you mostly need top-end power output all of the time.
On La Sarthe (Le Mans) I found it undrivably twitchy in the slow corners with a Stage 3 turbo (as this Diesel car probably reaches the high-end spectrum of rpm's very quickly since it doesn't revv that high being a Diesel) whilst the Stage 2 seemed to be almost perfect (and became the default choice for me on most tracks).

 

[oppositelock]

First - BHP sells cars, torque wins races.

This was simply misguided when Shelby said it in an age of four speed gearboxes and voodoo carb tuning. Today it's just flat-out false. A modern F1 car puts out about approximately 300 lb-ft, roughly the same as a slightly sporty V6 family sedan. A long as the torque curve is relatively flat, the car is geared correctly, and it's making enough horsepower, then the car will be fast. If a car loses because of lack of torque then it's likely bad gearing or driver error.

You can prove this through almost any example you can think of. Take for instance a KA24DE powered S13 240sx and an AP1 S2000. Both cars weigh about the same and the S13 has a 7 lb-ft advantage, so the Nissan should be as fast or slightly faster, right? Wrong, the Honda is nearly two seconds faster through the 1/4 mile. Why? 85 extra horsepower. And the AP1 is geared horribly for drag racing to boot.

I suggest playing with a program like CarTest to learn how torque, power, weight and gearing interact.

 

[JawsV8]

I've already found several cars where the mid-range turbo is better than the high. The game usually drops you a hint by having the high-range turbo only offer around 10 more horsepower or sometimes even less.

And in response to an earlier post, yes, torque does indeed "mean something" in GT5, it would be impossible not to. If you don't think so, then you don't understand what torque is...

 

[Destinkeys]

I put the high rev turbo on my Schwimmwagen for the Seasonal. I was sitting in top gear for the large majority of the race anyway, at upper rev limits. Seemed to work well, anyway... I DESTROYED the race after that and the adjustable tranny so that I could gear higher for the track...

I have to keep wondering when we are going to get the gearing fixed..? All this is tied to gearing, anyway. It seems weird that the ONLY tranny with even a top gear adjustment is the 20,000 cr. one. The 5-speed has a field where you would THINK at least you can adjust final gear, but NOOOoooo! I bought a 5-speed for my Stingray (because the hp I put into it banged it against the rev limiter in top gear in the stock tranny) and that was even SLOWER! Wasted 10k right there! Had to put the fully adjustable (yeah, right!) tranny in there before I could USE that extra muscle...

Crazy...

 

[Luminis]

I've already found several cars where the mid-range turbo is better than the high. The game usually drops you a hint by having the high-range turbo only offer around 10 more horsepower or sometimes even less.

And in response to an earlier post, yes, torque does indeed "mean something" in GT5, it would be impossible not to. If you don't think so, then you don't understand what torque is...

Depending on what cars and track you played thus far, I guess the impression that torgue doesn't mean much in GT5 might not even be suprising, whether you know the difference between torgue and power or not.

On a track with a proper gear box, it's fairly easy to keep a car at a high RPM range. And, as we all know, that's when power becomes more important than torgue, or at least negates the lack thereof.

Simply put: Loads of torgue accelerate the car with a single revolution. Loads of power accelerate the car with lots of revolutions.

Thus: Loads of torgue: Good acceleration from low speeds (or rather, engine speeds), loads of power: Good acceleration from higher engine speeds.

Oversimplyfied, I know. But, in my opinion, an easy to follow rule of thumb.

With a good gearbox, the lack of torgue can, of course, be negated (to a certain degree), as the engine can run at higher speeds, most of the time. Of course, when phrases like "power sells cars, torque wins races" were coined, cars were equipped with four speeds, which resulted in lower average RPM for the duration of a lap, which made torque more important than it is today.

If you compare and IS-F's eight speed to a Cobra's four speed, you will realise the IS-F can much easier be kept at high RPM ranges (even though not all of the gears are actually useful, which would make individually customisable gear ratios even nicer to have), so it needs much less torque than the Cobra with it's four speeds, which forced it to accelerate from low RPMs more often.

Anyways, if you only raced cars that have decent gearboxes at tracks that make it easy to not drop into low RPM ranges, you won't notice the effects of a high torque output.

 

[weirdkerr]

the toyota 7 is better with the mid range(2) turbo on the monaco race in historic.....

 

[Spodnjasaska]

Guys the answer lies with the Mini cooper s, the rally cars and so on. For those that aren't sure about the influence of torque in the game try shifting at 3500-4000rpm yes as soon as that. You'll notice a much higher top speed at the end of straights and a stronger pull from corners.
Comparing the stage 2 and 3 turbos you'll see that the stage 2 turbo is like the one's on the rally cars (mid range turbo), the stage 1 is like the one on the mini (kicks in at very low rpm and looses punch soon after, requiering early or short shift's), And the stage 3 is a high rev turbo which requiers you to stay at the top off the range.
I prefer the stage 3 to the stage one beacause it feels more like a Naturaly aspirated engine, but from my experience so far the second stage is clearly the way to go unless you prefer stage 3 or if stage 3 offers much higher HP.
Oh and you know GT has engine performance diagrams so you can determine your optimal shifting rpm.
There is also the question of how long the engine has peak torque and power. Some engines only have peaks and then the numbers drop (n/a engines and stage 3 turbos). Whilste some maintain there highest values or at least stay close to them (this is usualy the case with stage 2 turbos, a car that has something like this as stock in the game is the volvo S60 T5 and i think the ford focus ST 170). This difference means that although you have less go you have it for more of the time, therefore acctually better performance.
I hope my post helps you out.

 

[Destinkeys]

the toyota 7 is better with the mid range(2) turbo on the monaco race in historic.....

You can win that with the stock Toyota, even without a tune or aero adjustment.

Online, yes, you might need it against other upgraded historic's (though if you are going to stay historic, why upgrade?), but A-Spec, it's not really needed.

JMO

 

[Griffith500]

This is interesting. The point you shift ought to be where the thrust curve of two gears overlaps (that'd be a nice tool for this game), otherwise you'll just be slower in the next gear. This depends on rpm and gear ratio "overlap" (itself dependent on rpm).

As for power vs. torque, it's the area under the usable portion of the power curve that's important - what's "usable" depends on the car, track and gear ratios. That is, both are important at different times.

I'm glad to see that there is some sort of variation of power curves possible in GT, although I'd like to have better control over the power curves of NA engines.

 

[sumbrownkid]

If it's short tracks with many turns, the stage 2 can answer the call. If it's something high speed like La Sarthe, stage 3.

 

[AMCNUT]

I tried my fully modded Kubelwagen with both stage 2 and 3 turbos. On a car like the Kubelwagen at least, I didn't notice much of a difference in he low/mid torque ranges, but stage 3 in my opinion had a more discernible boost once the engine got to 3000 RPM. It just came right alive! Stage 2 could also be felt kicking in around the 3000 RPM mark as well, but not nearly so emphatically.

Just my experience - it could be entirely different with high-powered cars though.

 

[r0llinlacs]

I finally found a car like this. It's a Lotus Carlton that has a 3.0L v-6 bored to 3.6L and some other engine work.

The high rpm turbo netted me about 703hp and 627lb/ft of torque (both at 5900 rpm)

The mid rpm turbo netted me 705hp (5900rpm) and 702lb/ft of torque (at 4900rpm)

Both performed well, but with the mid rpm turbo you HAVE to change your shift points. I shifted at about 6100rpm (well below the redline) and had to max out the transmission to keep the revs down at high speeds. I am not consistent at all, but managed about the same times with both turbos.

But anyways, this makes sense that the mid rpm turbo makes more power, seeing as how this motor was bored to 3.6L and isn't a redline HP monster, it's a torque monster. It wouldn't make sense if the high rpm turbo made more power on this motor. It'd probably make more sense with a supercharger, but is not an option.

Anyways again, just pay attention to the power/torque curve and that alone should tell you which turbo is best for the engine.

 

[bjosim]

Can someone truly explain what torque is? I mean, i kinda know what it is, but it's a bit hard to truly explain it. In reality, a car has only one force pulling it forward, and that is the explosion in the cylinder pulling the piston downwards.

I know when the engine (or pistons, shafts and flywheel) have more mass, the torque increases because of the kinetic energy in moving objects increases when the mass is higher (right?) so, is torque really just a measure of kinetic energy? A diesel car has more torque because of the longer distance the pistons travel, hence more kinetic energy.

 

[GTWelsh]

My Mazda RX8 Type S has the rev limit at 10400rpm
It's a car souly used for being sideways !
For Tsukuba I remove the supercharger due to not wanting so much power but need it for tracks like Sazuka East where the corners are faster/longer.
With me so far ? Yes ? Well...

For me a Low RPM Turbo may benefit me most at Tsukuba because the low end torque on the revvy engine isn't that impressive. And the power gained wont send the car into crazy mode.
I'll just receive the much needed low end boost I want.
Mid Range RPM Turbo may over power the car as I rate it similar to the supercharger.
High RPM Turbo would be crazy with the turbo kick, no thanks.

Low end turbo to get me round these tight corners without lagging down on power at any point.
Supercharger to blast me through the Sazuka bends.

Great stuff !

Also I usually use the Mid Range RPM Turbo for racing. Unless pure power is needed.


Also bjosim
Also as far as I know Torque is the turning force the engine exerts. BHP is this FORCE compared to the revs.
Unfortunately due to the way the engines are... The raw Turning force of the engine has to be focussed to certain rev ranges and therefore lost in others. Thats why even though the revs increase (power goes up when revs go up) eventually power is lost because the torque just cannot be sustained.

 

[Stevisiov]

First - BHP sells cars, torque wins races.

Utter nonsense. Statements this general usually are.

On the road, a nice wide spread of torque is desirable. On the race track where the car should be in it's power band all the time, low down torque is not necessarily needed.

This is more accurate.

The majority of people often fail to understand, you can't just look at a HP figure, or a torque figure and determine which is a better engine characteristic.

Generally between two identical cars on a race track the car with higher HP but lower torque will be faster than the car with higher torque but lower HP. This is principally why petrol engines are better suited to racing than Diesel engines.

There are a few factors which muddy this comparison, which is why this is such a common misconception. Firstly, high torque cars are more usable in normal driving conditions, a lower torque car (as you say) is required to be kept in the appropriate rev range, but this isn't a problem in racing. High torque cars can be more flexible with the gearing, and tend to launch better from a standstill too.

The faster the track, the more suited to high power cars it is, the lower the speed of the track, the more suited to higher torque cars it is, but it's worth remembering that a good transmission will almost negate this difference anyway, as gearbox is effectively a torque multiplier.

A very important note must be made of the relationship between torque and power.

torque x engine speed = power

You can increase the power by increasing torque (within the correct part of the powerband) or by allowing the engine to spin faster. High engine speeds do not pertain to long life, so its much easier for a manufacturer to chose the 'high torque' option instead.

Yet another factor is the 'powerband of the engine', the ideal engine would not only have as high HP as possible, but as much torque as possible over as much of the rev-range as possible. Rally cars are a perfect example of this, with the power being limited, the engine is designed to have a very broad rev range to allow maximum acceleration at all times.