Supercars at the Ring (Autumn Ring Track Attack) Update and Pictures

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niky

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Supercars at the Micro-Ring
Supercar Track Attack - Autumn Ring
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Bob and I are in Japan at the moment, at a local tuner-bash on PD's Autumn Ring. We're frazzled and a little worn out, what with the air travel, the cramped hotel rooms, and trying to get our Camaro back together in time for the final runs. Yesterday, our guide from PD gave us a tour of their local garage, and we couldn't help but stare slack-jawed at some of the precious metal they had on display. So some phone calls were made, Ed got on the earliest flight available (thanks go to Rachelle Anne for the plane tickets, great job! -ed) and we were set.

The Autumn Ring

This is one of PD's oldest test tracks. In use since the early 90's, it fell into disrepair 1998, and was recently renovated and reopened last year. It's a tricky little devil, and the leaves and debris on the track make traction a little scary in some corners, but the idea of running insanely powerful supercars on such a small course is so crazy, we just had to try it.

Our first run out is in the Saleen. It's heavy and understeery, especially compared to the Miatas we've ben driving all weekend. Lots of grunt. The car rips down the straight as we prepare for our first timed laps of the day, and half-a-minute later, we're already calling for the track crew to bring a truck in to dig us out of the huge sand trap at the end of the straight. Driving a supercar around here requires a MAJOR rethinking of your braking points, as, while a sports car usually hits 110mph by the end of the straight, you're doing well over 150mph in one of these things before you know it. After a few more familiarization laps, we've got it.

The Contenders

After coming up with a list of other cars in the PD Garage priced between 200,000 Cr. and 1,000,000 Cr., Bob asked: "What about tuner cars?" I shrugged, and picked off three likely candidates, the RUF CTR2 (A 500+ hp 4WD Porsche ought to be neat -Ed), the Amuse Carbon R (more of a carbonfibre-clad racer than a supercar, but well within the price of admission -Ed), and the Mine's Skyline (I have heard great things about this, and reckon it's worth a spin -Ed). After I get him to stop hopping around giggling like a little schoolgirl, Ed notes that the Ford GT is below the price of admission, but should run well with this group. I put it in, and for good measure, the BMW M5 and the new Viper, as these are the cheapest 500 hp cars on the market, and we'd like to see how they stack up against the true exotics. Also, having had experience of the Vanquish, we'd agreed it's more a super sportscar than a supercar, so we're leaving it out, for the time being. Plus the fact that it's only got 400+ hp and is near two tons, puts it out of contention already.

Our final list:

2004 Amuse CarbonR (R34)
2003 Audi Le Mans Quattro
2005 BMW M5
2003 Dodge Viper SRT10
2005 Ford GT
1992 Jaguar XJ220
2003 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren
2000 Mine's Skyline GT-R N1 V-Spec (R34)
1998 Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car
2002 Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3
1996 RUF CTR2
2002 Saleen S7
2002 Spyker C8 Laviolette
2000 Tommy Kaira ZZII
2000 TVR Cerbera Speed 12
2001 Volkswagen W12 Nardo Concept

And after a long day of grueling laps, switching cars, and jotting down notes, we came up with the following results:

Code:
Car     RingTime  Diff   WSR+USR=Use  Fun  LapScore  TOTAL

Mine's  1:18.087  0.0%    3   4   7   10    10.00     9.00
Zonda   1:18.684  0.8%    4   4   8    9     9.24     8.75
R390    1:20.034  2.4%    5   4   9    9     7.57     8.52
BMW M5  1:20.884  3.5%    5   5  10    9     6.54     8.51
ZZII    1:19.327  1.6%    5   2   7   10     8.44     8.48
FordGT  1:18.648  0.7%    4   4   8    8     9.29     8.43
VW W12  1:18.129  0.1%    3   3   6    9     9.95     8.32
SLR     1:18.797  0.9%    4   3   7    7     9.10     7.70
CarbonR 1:20.297  2.8%    2   5   7    8     7.25     7.42
Saleen  1:20.060  2.5%    3   3   6    6     7.54     6.51
Cien    1:18.473  0.5%    2   3   5    5     9.51     6.50
XJ220   1:21.117  3.7%    4   3   7    6     6.26     6.42
Audi    1:20.006  2.4%    3   2   5    5     7.60     5.87
Spyker  1:22.629  5.5%    3   3   6    7     4.50     5.83
Viper   1:22.670  5.5%    5   2   7    5     4.46     5.49
RUFCTR2 1:23.975  7.0%    5   1   6    5     2.99     4.66
Cizeta  1:23.785  6.8%    3   2   5    5     3.20     4.40
Speed12 1:24.221  7.3%    1   2   3    4     2.72     3.24
LapScore equals time differential (in percent) rendered on scale of 0-10.
WSR = resistance to Wheelspin
USR = resistance to Understeer
Use = User-friendliness of the car when used without driving aids
Fun = Subjective Fun Factor
Total = Average of Use, Fun and LapScore


We rated the car in terms of User-friendliness (i.e.: how hard it is to use), Fun (how much we wanted to use it), and LapScore (Nick came up with a calculation he deemed fair, and we couldn't make heads or tails of it, so we just let it ride -Ed). In the end we haggled a lot about the scores, but when we used up our last eraser, we finally left them alone. Note that our subjective scores are just that, subjective, and OUR opinions on these cars. As it is, we're still undecided about some of the middle of the pack ones, but we're almost unanimous that the top cars belong on top.

Track Notes


#18 2000 TVR Cerbera Speed 12 Track Position: 18
FR | 809 hp | 1020 kg | V12 DOHC, 7730cc

TVR nixed this monstrous beast before it saw official production, saying that 800 hp in a road car is too much for anybody, so finding one in street trim is damn near impossible. Although this one's on sports tires instead of racing slicks, the engine isn't bog standard, having maybe fifty to a hundred ponies more than its already outrageous stock figures. Our first laps were characterized by egg-under-pedal driving, as a fraction of an inch too much throttle would light up the road-legal sports tires very quickly. One lap of the Autumn Ring consisted of turning the car, a light tap on the accelerator, rolling into half-throttle only by 2nd gear and three-fourths by 3rd, and hitting the brakes hard again for the next corner. Just half throttle will get the car to rotate in tighter turns. I only saw full throttle when fully straightened out, and in 5th and 6th gear, as a jab on the accelerator from three-fourths to full in 4th gear would still get the wheels spinning madly. To be fair, the car tracks very straight and true, as long as the rear wheels aren't on fire (which they are, most of the time). Reckon Trevor is right, as the only way you could probably drive this thing well is on all-out racing slicks. After this run, I feel pity for what's left of the tires. This is a real man's car, little boys need not apply, as it doesn't come stock with traction control, and it sorely needs it. (Turismo Note: TCS cuts about 3 seconds off this time)


#17 1994 Cizeta V16T Track Position: 16
MR | 589 hp | 1640 kg | V16 QOHC, 6000cc

The Cizeta Moroder V16T ("T" stands for twin V8s joined at the transmission, not Turbo) is one of the rarest cars in the world, and we're told not to "kerb" or "off" this car in any way. Oh-kay. So, in trepidation, and in fear this powerful car would show us up, we went out onto the track. Five laps later, and everything's okay (we're hooligans again, he means -Ed). The V16T understeers resolutely, and needs delicacy on the throttle in first gear, but otherwise it's okay. One thing it isn't, though, is fast. The V16T wallows in turns, and you can feel all that weight shift back and forth and side to side through turns, under braking, and when accelerating. This makes for good traction on acceleration, but is otherwise out of place on a car this expensive. It's still an easy car to drive, but not as good as the newer metal here.


#16 1996 RUF CTR2 Track Position: : 17
R4 | 522 hp | 1380 kg | Boxer6 SOHC TT, 3600cc

A Porsche with AWD, that famous rear engine and a tune-up to over 500 hp, what's not to like? And it's a 993, no less, the last of the true 911s, as told by most Porsche-o-philes. Unfortunately, the car just doesn't do it on this track... that tenacious grip and AWD drivetrain conspire to make this car understeer all over the place. Unlike a classic rear-drive Porsche, you don't get the bob-and-weave of a razor-sharp nose or the scary snap-oversteer that is the trademark of on-the-edge Porsches. It's a nice, safe, fast lap, but not in contention here. Our inability to overcome the understeer that persisted throughout the lap just added insult to injury.


#15 2003 Dodge Viper SRT10 Track Position: 15
FR | 507 hp | 1533 kg | V10 OHV, 8275cc

Another twisty track. Another go at the big bad freight train. We still don't like it. The Viper's incessant understeer means that it is even more unsuited for this track than the big 'Ring. It does grip tremendously, doesn't roll despite its weight, and has so much less trouble putting down its power than most of the other cars here that you get to wondering what the hell their problem is. But it still doesn't work here, too low for kerb riding, and too long to turn, and just too damn wide to thread a neat line. We brought this car here to help delineate the differences between supercars and sportscars, but it's got too many of the same foibles as the supercars, and not enough of the benefits.


#14 2002 Spyker C8 Laviolette Track Position: 14
MR | 456 hp | 1070 kg | V8 DOHC, 4172cc

"Nulla Tenaci Invia Est Via" - (Not for the Tenacious, are the Roads Impassable -Ed est Rex!)... the Spyker is either the ultimate fashion statement or the ultimate sports car. It's overdone in the same vein as a Pagani, only with less focus on outright point to point speed and more focus on the thrills. The Laviolette uses a highly tuned Audi engine in combination with an F1-style suspension to deliver the thrills. It's dead flat down low, but you'll need to feather the throttle near redline in first and second, as the naturally aspirated V8 soars to stratospheric engine speeds. It's a fun drive with the traction control off, and very light to steer. Unfortunately, it's no match for the big boys in this comparison. It still whips the Viper, with its superior dynamics and incredibly smooth engine. And that motto? It's engraved on the muffler tips of the car. Now that's bling.


#13 2003 Audi Le Mans Quattro Track Position: 8
M4 | 641 hp | 1530 kg | V10 DOHC TT, 4961cc

The Volkswagen Group has a thing about stealing... errh... sharing engines and platforms amongst its members. At last count, there were something like a dozen different Golfs, with badges from Audi to Skoda, all with the same running gear. And here's a new one: An "Audi" supercar based on a re-skinned Lamborghini Gallardo. Go figure. Traction is a little difficult to maintain on this small track, and the car isn't exactly the pointiest, but the Audi is definitely fast. The reason that we scored it so low subjectively, though, is that we drove the ZZII right after, and it's faster, even with almost a hundred less horses. And even with the ZZII's outlandish power to weight ratio, it doesn't have half the traction and dynamic problems the Audi does.


#12 1992 Jaguar XJ220 Track Position: 13
MR | 524 hp | 1372 kg | V6 DOHC, 3498cc

The oldest car here, and it feels like it. Though it's dynamically good, it's not as quick as you'd expect from 500 horses, and turbo lag makes itself felt. That turbo lag allows you to plant the throttle in almost any gear, but it slows proceedings somewhat. Compared to the other LeMans racer here, the R390, the XJ220 feels somewhat heavy and dull. That the XJ220 is slower around this tight course than the much heavier, taller and less powerful M5 tells you a lot about automotive progress.


#11 2002 Cadillac Cien Track Position: 3
MR | 760 hp | 1450 kg | V12 DOHC, 7500cc

Cadillac has a knack (another atrocious pun -Ed) for making highly impressive showcars. Their roadcars are another matter entirely. We wish they'd actually produced this showroom special. If looks could kill, the Cien would be Al Capone. Now for the bad news. That avalanche of power produced by the huge V12 comes right now, in true American fashion. This makes balancing the throttle between too much and too little power just a bit difficult, and it doesn't help that the Cien's gearing is astronomically tall, leaving you a bit south of the powerband if you upshift too soon. Besides that, the Cien has enough of the right moves, and though it isn't the nimblest or easiest to drive, it's devastatingly quick, even around this tight track.


#10 2002 Saleen S7 Track Position: 10
MR | 558 hp | 1250 kg | V8 OHV, 7008cc

Little more than a street-legal race car, the Saleen S7 sacrifices more than a little day-to-day practicality for out and out speed. Powered by a pushrod V8 and engineered with years of experience from Mustang tuning, the Saleen is touted as America's first modern supercar (at least, the first one that actually saw the light of day - the Vector doesn't count). The Saleen looks the part, and it's got all of the traditional supercar quirks, poor seating position, heavy steering and understeer, and a rear heavy balance that'll bite you if you push it too far over the line. The Saleen suffers from some low-speed wheelspin, but that grunty V8 gets to the meat of its powerband quickly, and holding a higher gear doesn't truly blunt the speed much, as the torque spread is pretty good. It doesn't hold as much lateral grip as you'd think, but is easy to catch if it starts drifting. Not a bad car, but far from the best here.


#9 2004 Amuse CarbonR (R34) Track Position: 11
FR | 603 hp | 1123 kg | L6 DOHC TT, 2568cc

This car is nuts, literally. Once conceptualized as the ultimate street car, the Carbon R has evolved into a full-out racer. Using a parts-bin chock-full of lightweight carbon-fibre and titanium parts, the Carbon R is almost half a ton lighter than the regular Skyline. Part of this involved removing the heavy and complicated AWD system, and part of it came from refabricating most of the body in pure, unpainted carbonfibre. Starting out, the car feels sluggish, apparently, turbo spool-up time was not a major consideration in mapping out the engine parameters. But once the needle goes over 5000rpm, the tail starts to come around, quickly. After a few laps, you learn to roll on the throttle, and keep pressure light until the wheels catch up with the turbo six's insane boost. The car rotates very easily, and you can catch slides easily if you're quick enough. But once it comes all the way around, your nuts are in the wringer. A great car, but a little too much power for road tires.


#8 2003 Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren Track Position: 6
FR | 625 hp | 1768 kg | V8 SOHC SC, 5439cc

The SLR is the ultimate marriage of Mercedes' quality and technology and McLaren's racing knowhow. In some ways, it works very well, in others... The SLR is light for a Mercedes, but considering all their other uber-coupes weigh over two tons, that's not saying much. Mercedes loaded McLaren's ultralight sportscoupe with all the extras, and then some... so the SLR is luxurious for a McLaren, then... But the ride is still bone-jarringly stiff, and the brakes bite like a rabid dog. We can't help thinking just a little more focus one way or the other would have well and truly sorted these things out. What does work is that jewel of an engine, that terrific suspension and that showy active airfoil. The SLR is nimble and quick and brakes well, but that weight makes it dive under braking, and slow in side to side transitions. It may not be slow, but thanks to the reflex-dulling weight, it feels like it. It's still very fast, but given the equipment, you'd expect it to feel more special, like a Corvette plus instead of just a Viper plus. Pity.

Editor's Note: From here on up is the lucky seven. Of all the cars here, these are the ones we really like to drive. -Ed


#7 2001 Volkswagen W12 Nardo Concept Track Position: 2
MR | 600 hp | 1300 kg | W12 DOHC, 5998cc

The Nardo concept is another could-have, should-have-been supercar. Built around that wonderfully overdone W12 (twin narrow angle V6s joined at the crank) engine, the Nardo is devastatingly quick, and as the engine is naturally aspirated, it's relatively tractable, too. The Nardo doesn't have the most direct steering, and it isn't the easiest to get traction in, but it's got just enough of both to make it a blast to drive. It's the fastest supercar / concept here, beating the more powerful Cien and the nimbler Zonda. It's a blast to drive, and it would've made a great supercar, if Volkswagen had ever gotten around to producing the damn thing. As it is, it's a great prototype, and it's a shame not many people get to drive one. We're happy we did.


#6 2005 Ford GT Track Position: 4
MR | 558 hp | 1451 kg | V8 DOHC, 5409cc

Turn in is crisp, break-away is very well controlled. Wheelspin is easy to catch, and the huge torque of the big V8 low down makes it easy to access power at any rpm. Brakes may not be the best here, but if you're going twice the legal limit, you'll want to slow down well before the next corner anyway. In medium speed stops, it's not a big deal. Although it does understeer, like most of the MR cars here, the Ford's line is easily tightened by throttle or brake. At these low speeds, the Ford can dance well. The Ford GT is a useable everyday supercar, and posting the fourth fastest time here, sees off a lot of more expensive, exotic and powerful machinery. Now if only Ford would make some more.


#5 2000 Tommy Kaira ZZII Track Position: 7
M4 | 551 | 1000 kg | L6 DOHC TT, 2568cc

Grip. Lots of it. Traction. Lots more. The ZZII is Tommy Kaira's take on the supercar. Although it never saw official production, it stands as a masterpiece of Japanese technology. In true Tommy Kaira fashion, the ZZII borrows a lot of its guts from Nissan, and for this flagship model, only the best Nissan engine and drivetrain would do. So underneath the sleek supercar exterior lies the heart and legs of a Nissan Skyline... except in this case, that engine has very little car to haul around. Unlike the Amuse Skyline, the ZZII makes its power at realistic engine speeds, and unlike the Mine's Skyline, the grip of the 4WD system is absolute. Once you put your foot down, all you have to do is hold on. The ZZII corners on rails, though it is not the grippiest in this test. The only low point in this package is the massive understeer under power. This is a car that you stop, turn, point and shoot. And it does that extremely well. It makes driving the perfect lap sheer pleasure.


#4 2005 BMW M5 Track Position: 12
FR | 508 hp | 1715 kg | V10 DOHC, 4999cc

If ever there was a four-door supercar deserving of the name, this is it. We've already given our praises of the M5 in previous articles, but it's worth repeating here. This car feels much lighter than its weight suggests it should, and as a supercar, works better than most. With amazingly neutral steering and good transitions for its heft. The M5 also has wonderful traction around this tight course. Now if BMW ever got around to giving just another hundred horses, it could seriously go after the McLaren.


#3 1998 Nissan R390 GT1 Road Car Track Position: 9
MR | 357 hp | 1180 kg | V8 DOHC TT, 3495cc

More focused as a racecar than the XJ220, the R390 Road Car was Nissan's wink at motorsports homologation rules. Little more than a racecar in disguise, the R390 has a V8 with the same displacement as the Jaguar's V6. Though the power output on paper is much lower, the difference in pace between the two is enormous. The Nissan turns with conviction, stays flat, and holds its line at much higher speeds than anything else here. It follows driver inputs in a near telepathic manner, and given just a little bit more horsepower, it would wipe the field clean. The Nissan V8 is wonderfully tractable, with turbo lag merely a minor irritation (a miracle, considering how old this car is) and power comes on at just the right point in the powerband. This car can make you feel like God. Now if only it were faster. As it's a Nissan, we don't doubt you could slap the biggest turbines in the world on that engine and it'll stay in one piece, but as this car is so rare, I doubt they'd let us do that...


#2 2002 Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3 Track Position: 5
MR | 556 hp | 1250 kg | V12 DOHC, 7291cc

The problem with the Zonda is that its looks are so striking, people don't seem to take it seriously as a supercar. To some motoring cognosceti, the Zonda is the ultimate automotive fashion statement. It's the wildest jewelry you can wear. Lateral grip levels feel enormous compared to most of the machinery here. Just as well, since it's one of the newest designs. The Mercedes Benz engine is silky smooth, with a linear powerband which greatly facilitates power transfer. The Zonda can be driven point and squirt style, race style, and can even hang its (wide) tail out a few degrees if you actually feel the need. Beware, as the huge engine sitting behind you carries a lot of inertia through turns, and if you overcook it a bit too much, it'll come straight around. The Zonda and the Ford GT turn in almost identical times, and although the Zonda is lighter and can carry more G's into a corner, the Ford's nimble and loose nature is more ideally suited for a track like this. On a full-out race track, the Zonda would likely make short work of the upstart from Ford. As it is, we call this one a tie. But in terms of that supercar-feel... it really is no contest.


#1 2000 Mine's Skyline GT-R N1 V-Spec (R34) Track Position: 1
4WD | 600 hp | 1340 kg | L6 DOHC TT

The Mine's Skyline may start out as a bog-standard Nissan Skyline GT-R, but the astronomical (for a Skyline, not as compared to these exotics) price of the Mine's version hint at the work that went on under the skin. A bespoke suspension, engine internals and turbos, as well as some awesome brakes, combined with a bit less weight than the regular Skyline turn the Mine's into a track monster. Although RB26s can take a lot of abuse, they're not indestructible, thus Mine's has beefed up the Nissan engine with bespoke parts, and has increased the displacement to handle the power. Although the specs are secret, we're betting on 2.65-2.7 liters. Mine's intends its GT-R kit to be the ultimate trackday machine, capable of dominating any track day, and still driving home under its own power.

Unlike the Porsche 911, the Skyline's 4WD system doesn't result in terminal understeer. Instead, it allows you to trim your line to perfection, you're never in danger of understeering or oversteering into or out of a turn. The power available is silly, and though a little throttle control will curb wheelspin, you don't really need it, as that ATTESSA system will kill it for you. In fact, the 4WD rewards brutal attacks on the throttle with unbelievable acceleration. This car can be driven as neatly or as sloppily as you want, and it will still turn in terrific track times. On corners where it can't produce as many lateral G's as a Zonda or an R390, it's hanging its tail out a few degrees as it powerslides all the way through. Pure, unadulterated fun.

Combine all this with some of the stickiest street legal rubber known to man, and you have a genuine supercar killer on your hands.





Epilogue

We're staying in Japan for the end of our tuner bash (we're putting it in the next issue - Ed) but as soon as we get back, we're going to put pictures from both events into the next issue. Till then, Ed and I will be prowling Tokyo at night, looking for a likely candidate for our next project car. We have our sights set on bringing home an old Skyline and making our own tribute to Mine's incredible Monster.

Epilogue II

The next day, we were approached by one of the crew at the PD garage, Kintaro-san, I think. He asked us to follow him back to the garage. Pointing to a corner, he said, "Try this one, Mr. Irons." It was an NSX in a bodykit. Didn't really fit our competition, so we overlooked it, as it met neither the entry price nor the horsepower requirements. Nick told the handler as much. Then he said "Super secret, super special... 412 KW of power." When Nick was finished with his calculator, we figured that was about 553 horsepower, give or take a few, and with the car only being 1230 kg, it ought to be a rocket. -Ed

So Ed Irons and this guy talk me into strapping myself into a car that looks like a cross between a Cylon (for you non-geeks, those baddies from Battlestar Galactica -Ed) and an NSX.



After the first two turns, I've changed my mind. Whether through familiarity with the track, or through sheer goodness of the car, I posted a 1:17:785 after about twelve laps. I have no doubt the Zonda could match this in the right hands, but the NSX is a bloody good handling car, almost as sticky as the R390 with much more power. Traction is excellent and turn in is relatively sharp for a supercar. One oddity, is that this car is more tail-happy than any of the other MRs, save, perhaps the Ford GT... probably due to perfect weight distribution? Or is it just because it's very stiff? Whichever is the case, the Honda makes short work of any turn at any speed. Its straightline pace isn't the greatest here, but as is typical forHonda this car is a beaut of an automobile, and it makes one wonder what the next NSX will be like. We can only hope that it'll be at least this fast.

And hopefully, much better looking.
 
And before anyone mentions it, yes, I know that most of these cars have adjustable trannies and suspensions, and no, I didn't touch them... if a supercar can't make a killing lap out of the box, but gains seconds from tuning, then I'd have to tune every other car, and buy trannies and suspensions for cars that AREN'T adjustable, but in Real Life should be (Speed12) and this would've taken me a month instead of a week. :ill:
 
niky
Epilogue

We're staying in Japan for the end of our tuner bash (we're putting it in the next issue - Ed) but as soon as we get back, we're going to put pictures from both events into the next issue. Till then, Ed and I will be prowling Tokyo at night, looking for a likely candidate for our next project car. We have our sights set on bringing home an old Skyline and making our own tribute to Mine's incredible Monster.

Briliant Niky, do you actually write for a car magazine? If not you really should apply for a job because these write ups are great.

I can't wait for the next issue. Are you going to do a write up on building up a Mine's Skyline too? I'm looking forward to it. Please do a R33 GTR, they seem to be overlooked in comparison to the R32 and R34.

Once again, great write up 👍
 
No, but I do write TO a lot of magazines. :lol:

I've got a 10km special R33 in yellow, just waiting to be trashed. I thought, though, that I might do an R32 (got a 10km R32 in my garage also), and I've just been waiting to finish this so I can move on to my (backed-up) other articles.
 
Nice write-up, niky. I have to ask one thing, though. There are three tuner cars that I'm wondering why they weren't included: the HPA Motorsports R32 Golf, Amuse S2000 GT1, Buick Special.
 
gt_masta
The buick special is a tuner car? I don't think . Who would want to tune a buick from tthe 60s anyway.

A lot of enthusiasts like to restore and tune old cars... why should the Buick be any different? what about that whale of a Tank Car by Jay Leno?
 
I was considering the Buick... the HPA I'm still evaluating. But Netclash is right... this is about supercars, and the BMW, Viper and FordGT are below the price of admission, but in there because the Viper is supposed to be a "supercar slayer", the Ford GT is a supercar sold at discount, and the M5 is considered to be the fastest four door on earth. Everything else here is supercar in cost and/or exclusivity. I pegged cost at 200,000 minimum, otherwise, I'd have had to test every corvette, tuscan, lotus, etc in the game, too. (Am going to, but that's another article). :lol:

The Buick (DAMN TERRIFIC TUNER CAR!) was too left field for this comparison (and too cheap), although the suspension tuning is wonderful, I think it'd turn in a time just south of the Speed12. live4speed has just done a 1:21 HERE in our discussion on fast road cars for the Speed 12. That would put it midfield in terms of times, but it's still hard to drive.
 
UPDATE: Just uploaded the pictures from the comparo and a small note on the NSX LM Roadcar. Still working on the tuner challenge and a hot hatch comparo... Just been too busy to finish it all.
 
great writeup!

I did a comparison a short while ago between '90's supercars (sort of) which featured the Cizeta and the XJ220, and it was nice to read that your experiences of these cars was similar to mine - they feel heavy and unwieldy. And the Cizeta turned out to be about the slowest car on any track (but the fastest in a straight line... :dunce: ) But for all that I found the Cizeta to be, in that company at least, progressive and adjustable, and more enjoyable for it, and it had a fantastic engine which as an added bonus was possessed of a beautiful voice.

I included the Yellowbird in my tests as well, which was a mistake. It is the moodiest device I've ever been flung at the scenery by. It couldn't decide if it wanted to kill me with understeer or oversteer, but it made committed attempts with both.
 
I have to give that a try. I think the RUFs are just too sticky on SS tires. The BTR feels perfectly balanceable, the RGT understeery but quick, but the AWD RUFs seem to be just too well glued to take any turns well.

Yeah, the Cizeta is a right rocket in a straight line, but just not as well developed as most supercars. It's a unique and good-looking car, though, and after this test, I had a bit of fun throwing it sideways... hence the pic:



If you're not in a race, it's pretty fun, but if you're going after lap times, eh. :(
 
Netclash
Are they SUPERcars ? . No offense but imo , they're not.:D
Brilliant write-up.As said before , fun to read and informative.!
Excuse me, but if the HPA Golf (and, to a lesser extent, the Buick Special) are not supercars than the Mine's Skyline also is not and niether is the S2000 GT1, as they are basically the same idea.
That being said, brillaint write-up.
 
niky
I have to give that a try. I think the RUFs are just too sticky on SS tires. The BTR feels perfectly balanceable, the RGT understeery but quick, but the AWD RUFs seem to be just too well glued to take any turns well.

Yeah, the Cizeta is a right rocket in a straight line, but just not as well developed as most supercars. It's a unique and good-looking car, though, and after this test, I had a bit of fun throwing it sideways... hence the pic:



If you're not in a race, it's pretty fun, but if you're going after lap times, eh. :(

100% agreewith all you said about the Cizeta. It's fun, but slow. For a five hundred and plenty bhp car, at least.

I may have overlooked this... what tyres did you use? I was driving the Yellowbird on N2s... grip wasn't it's strong point. When I managed a complete lap pointing more-or-less the right way, I was lapping faster than I could in the Cizeta (also on N2s) but I was substantially slower than I was in the XJ220 (once again on N2s) mainly because the XJ seemed to have more grip, and far better traction than the other two.
 
I did this testing with S2 tires, otherwise, I might never have gotten the Amuse Carbon R nor the Tuscan Speed 12 to hook up. :lol:

That being said, I've been doing a lot of testing recently on N-tires (N3, I'd use N2, but my pain threshold is still too low), and aside from the level of traction, I'd say the quality of driving is more or less the same.

If you can pilot the Yellowbird on N's, then the CTR2 may just be a lot more tractable on N-tires... will have to try it out. But I don't know how much difference it would make... note that the Tommy Kaira car also suffers from massive understeer, but it's a lovely car to drive, because off-power, it's pointable. I couldn't seem to get the CTR2 to turn-in very well even off power, but since it's been so long (only ressurected this to put the looooong delayed pics in), I might not be remembering this right. Am going to go for a quick whing in the AWDs later. I'm pretty sure I have a spare 'classic' Yellowbird in my garage that hasn't been modified.

Hmmm... if the Ford GT is a tail-happy, slidey, power-steering hooligan of a car on S-tires, what would it be like on N-tires? Hmmm.... :lol:
 
Strangely enough I find the Ford GT to be too understeery on SMs, but that may have something to do with me using a DF. I tend to get too much understeer in that car, followed by snap oversteer occasionally, which is usually sudden enough to catch me out. Can't remember it being any different on N2s. It was a million miles quicker than the XJ and V16T though.

As for the Yellowbird, I don't think it matters what tyres its on, it will still be suicidal.. the only time the 'bird was not trying to kill itself and take me with it, was when I was driving something else!

I haven't tried the AWD Rufs in GT4 yet, but I did find the CTR2 horribly understeery in GT3. The 3400S was nicely balanced though in 3. I still need to get one of those in 4.

As for driving on the N tyres, I only really do it so that I can have more throttle based fun in the lower powered cars.. but then I have to run the more powerful cars on similar tyres when taking performance figures so that the results are fair. I certainly can't push hard on N2s, nor can I race on them like some of the more talented among these pages have. I fall off the track too often and always brake too late when trying to race on N tyres. But it does tend to make cars feel more sensitive to the throttle and gives an extra balancing dimension around corners. I'm not a good drifter, but even I found that on N2s I could do complete circles on opposite lock in the Cizeta, at around 50mph, at the Gymkhana. It's just a pity you can't watch replays on that venue. I haven't driven a car yet in which I would be able to repeat that feat on S tyres.

When you say the QUALITY of driving would be the same, I must agree, since to all intents and purposes we both seem to be noticing the same balance in particular cars despite being on rather different tyres.
 
Maybe it's because I can get full lock on a DS2 much quicker than you can with a DFP... plus the fact that I was doing Autumn Ring, which has a lot of short corners and kerbs to bounce the cars off of and fling the rear end around... No doubt, at higher speeds, the Ford GT will understeer much much more.

It's a conundrum when testing cars, as what feels good on one track will feel like a dog on another. I usually use the Nurburg because of this, because it has enough of everything to get a good picture, but it's also unfriendly to some cars that may be disastrously quick and good on other tracks (especially high-powered and/or stiff cars).
 
Thanks Niky, this thread encouraged me to go and buy the Mine's Skyline. It's a great car on its own rights, the fact that it's a Skyline doesn't matter here. A real point'n shooter!
 
Yup... the joy of enthusiasm should come from the driving of cars, rather than a bickering over the label or the prestige of the car... Actually, most of these cars are worth a fling if you've got the extra cash floating around... and if it's a prize car, go ahead and thrash it... if you burn the oil or chassis, you can always just buy it from yourself again.
 
I have to say I'm not a big Skyline enthusiast, but I know a good car when I see it. Yes, I like Skylines, but not in the same way as those 2F2F fans. My first good car in GT2 was a Skyline R34 and so was the case with GT3 and GT4 too. But this is because it is one of the best road cars in the world, not because it is driven in a movie.
 
niky
I have to give that a try. I think the RUFs are just too sticky on SS tires. The BTR feels perfectly balanceable, the RGT understeery but quick, but the AWD RUFs seem to be just too well glued to take any turns well.

Yeah, the Cizeta is a right rocket in a straight line, but just not as well developed as most supercars. It's a unique and good-looking car, though, and after this test, I had a bit of fun throwing it sideways... hence the pic:



If you're not in a race, it's pretty fun, but if you're going after lap times, eh. :(

AHHHHHH......i dont really like that car i cant control it....,but it l;ooks very cool and is pretty fast.
 
My car.....


imgres
 
:lol:... ok...

Next article coming up... just need some time to polish it:....

eurocompactsmall4fa.jpg
 
Awesome job!.. maybe you should try to get the GTP newletter thingy up and running again.. There used to be write-ups in there..

Euro hot hatch challenge?.. how about a Japanese one at the same time and the winners duke it out?

Come to think of it, you might need to broaden it to Performance FF challenge to get the Japanese numbers up. The only Japanese two door performance hatches I can think of come from Honda.. hmmm.. Someone corrext me.. my brain hurts :ouch:

just a suggestion.. 💡


You're from Philippines but are you Filipino?.. just asking ;)
 
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