Supercars vs racecars

[Carl.]

I've just seen a nice article on the Road and track site, that pits a Carrera GT against a 911 GTR RSR race car. After reading this, I'm wondering why one would want to buy a Carrera GT for any othe reason that "because he can".

Unless you live in Germany, you can only exploit a fraction of the car's potential on public roads, so basically it ends up as being a track toy that you still can drive on the way home.

Looking at the price guides on qv500.com, here are the price ranges for both cars on the market:

- 911 GTR RSR: $175K - $260K

- Carrera GT: $385K - $470K

While the GTR RSR can't be driven home, it will anihilate a Carrera GT on a track, especially if the GT isn't running on slicks. It also leaves you with $125K to $295K in your bank account to find a much more confortable way to get back home.

Perhaps I understimate the value of showing off in Carrera GT downtown. Don't get me wrong, I like the Carrera GT a lot, but the older I get, the less I become interested in that sort of supercar. My dream garage would be much more likely to include something like a radikal than any recent production Porsche or Ferrari.

 

[Duke]

I'm very much with you on this. I've been exposed to supercars, though no family member has ever owned one. I just don't really understand the magic.

If you gave me $60,000 to buy a car with, I'd buy a 3-year old M5 and a Spec Miata racecar. There's no way I'd go looking at $60,000 cars, let alone $250,000 cars.

 

[Dougboy]

you're not thinking the way the uber rich thinks

What if you already have a 911 GTR RSR and your looking for something for everyday driving.

Then again, there are rich people who arnt too much into racing but still wants a high performance sports car. An example would be the rich broads driving AMG's in beverly hills.

 

[neanderthal]

if you read the article completely you will know that the driver, partick long, also stated that with racing slicks and some adjustments to the suspension, the competition would have been skewed more towards the CGTs side.

after all, when you test a car against another and one is on race tires, you really are cooking your data.

 

[Carl.]

you're not thinking the way the uber rich thinks

What if you already have a 911 GTR RSR and your looking for something for everyday driving.

Then again, there are rich people who arnt too much into racing but still wants a high performance sports car. An example would be the rich broads driving AMG's in beverly hills.

If you're uber-rich and actually collecting cars, then fine... heck, If I was in that situation I'd probably look for an F40 or a 959 for my collection. It's often not the case, though. I knew a guy who was owning an SL500 and a Carrera 4S (while he was waiting for his 360 Spider). The last time I've heard of him his lawyer was working out a way for him to keep his driver licence, and he was more inclined to drive the SL500 he bought (mainly) for his girlfriend than his Porsche, by then.

if you read the article completely you will know that the driver, partick long, also stated that with racing slicks and some adjustments to the suspension, the competition would have been skewed more towards the CGTs side.

after all, when you test a car against another and one is on race tires, you really are cooking your data.

In the video he estimates that it would probably come within 2 seconds of the GTR RSR times with slicks and suspension adjustments.

 

[Kylehnat]

An example would be the rich broads driving AMG's in beverly hills.

No, their servants are driving the AMG's. The wealthy are driving cars that you or I may never see in person, and are cars which they don't appreciate.

Example: Rod Stewart's dip**** bimbo of a daughter has a stunning silver 550 Barchetta. She picked it because she liked the color, and then had daddy but it for her. I'm sure by now it's been totalled.

 

[gibus]

The Carrera GT is mainly a show off car. I know a bunch of very wealthy families (i've been in international schools for the last 2 years) and to be honnest most of them drive normal-upper middle class cars.. big audi's.. some drive RS6's.

The people that get C GT's are either high end millionaires, because trust me, you wouldn't buy a C GT if you "only" had a million in your bank account, that would be... stupid. Or they are car passionates, in which case I don't think I'd even go for that but oh well. Plus I'm sure many see it also as an investment.. who knows what it will be worth later, and they probably only made a couple of them so you can probably increase your price on the sale later.

 

[///M-Spec]

Something to keep in mind...

The Carrera GT was designed with all the road car compromises needed to "work" as a daily driver. Meaning it will start if it's -30 or +108 degress out, rain or shine. It will idle in traffic and not overheat. It runs on pump gas and passes emissions and noise standards in every country it is sold in. It has a powerband that is tractable and useable in normal everyday traffic conditions.

The suspension was designed not only for supercar levels of performance, but to cope with potholes, ruts, expansion joints, botts-dots, curbs and the occasional furry animal. And it copes with these things while maintaining a level of stability and predictablity that your average supercar owning person expects.

It will protect said driver and occupant very well in a crash without both people being plugged into a 5-point harness and wearing a helmet and HANS device.

Even though techs have to receive special training to service a Carrera GT, it can be done at a normal, mainstream Porsche dealership.

It not only has a full interior with all the luxury accutrements one might expect of a proper daily driver, but it was designed so that 95% of people who sit in one will find it a comfortable place, for hours on end.

And because it is a Porsche, it was designed so that in 5, 15, 25 or 50 years later, it will still be all these things.

These are all things we take for granted in a street car, yet very smart and talanted designers and engineers sweat for years trying to make it all work. And it takes money to do this. A lot of it.

A race car has to worry about none of these things.

Personally, I don't think a Carrera GT is how I would spend $450,000. I would probably spend the money on a turn-key club racer (like an ex-World Challenge car built to BMWCCA specs) and buy myself an M6 with the leftover cash.

But I DO see all the work that goes into a car like the CGT and all the compromises required to meet all the different design goals. I mean, it's not like Porsche just took a stillborn LMP design, put some interior panels in, installed a muffler, grabbed some leftover GT3 seats from the stock room and then called it a day.


M

 

[Carl.]

^^ Indeed.

I am impressed too by the engineering of an Enzo, a Carrera GT or a Veyron. It's just that the more I think of it, the that the whole point of the exercice doesn't excite me as much as it used to, and certainly not as much as driving a race car would.

 

[Poverty]

The carrera GT can be driven everyday. The Race car needs a team of engineers to get it and keep it going...

 

[Flerbizky]

Something to keep in mind...

<snip>

M

Word !...

 

[BMWteamPTG]

The carrera GT can be driven everyday. The Race car needs a team of engineers to get it and keep it going...

thats what i was thinking. the carrera when not on slicks would obviously have a disadvantage to any mid level race car. either way interesting article. id still go for the carrera if i had the money

 

[MustangSVT]

If I had the money, I'd get a new Z06, a new Ford GT, and then buy a house or something.. And then later on buy a M3 or 911 Carrera S for everyday driving. 💡

One can only dream. I do however hope I may one day own something like a Porsche 911, a Corvette or an M3. Lot more realistic than hoping to own a brand new Ferrari or something.

 

[McLaren]

The shock ending should not be shocking.

I was nowhere suprised when I read the article weeks ago.
Why? Well duh, the GT3 is AFTER ALL, a race car, and is intended to go around tracks faster than anything on the road.

While the Carrera GT was originall designed as a new race car, of which Porsche made it a supercar, it's intentions today are that, Yes, it can be raced as it has part of that still left in it, but it's road features are what take some of that away.

NOW, if the Carrera GT had originally stayed as the race car it was built as, then yeah, I may have been surprised.

I mean, c'mon, how shocking will it be to discover that a S7-R can beat a S7?

Point is, 90-97% of the time, the top race car will beat the top supercar of a company ONLY if the 2 share many similarities.

M3 GTR Vs. M3 CSL?
Viper GTS Vs. Viper GTS-R?
Corvette C6 (Z06) Vs. Corvette C6-R?

The outcomes shouldn't be that surprising unless the road car actually kills the race car by more than a couple of seconds.

 

[Dougboy]

Point is, 90-97% of the time, the top race car will beat the top supercar of a company ONLY if the 2 share many similarities.

M3 GTR Vs. M3 CSL?
Viper GTS Vs. Viper GTS-R?
Corvette C6 (Z06) Vs. Corvette C6-R?

The outcomes shouldn't be that surprising unless the road car actually kills the race car by more than a couple of seconds.

But the point is, we are not comparing the same car in race trim and street specs. The GT is the top of the line porsche while a 911 is at a lower level. Then again, even if its a lower performance car, it is still a race car. Its like comparing a 360 challenge race car to an enzo. The 360 will still be faster because its a race car.

 

[iceburns288]

Around Fiorano:
Ferrari 360 N-GT - 1.18.9
Enzo: 1.22.30

The whole point of the CGT is a near-racecar performance with all the things a race car doesn't have. I'd take a CGT over a 911RSR any day. I could drive it to the track, put my tires on, race, take the tires off, and drive home in comfort. Compare that to buying a 911RSR, a trailer and a truck to tow it, and a team to help you run it. It's not as fun as it sounds.

 

[McLaren]

But the point is, we are not comparing the same car in race trim and street specs. The GT is the top of the line porsche while a 911 is at a lower level. Then again, even if its a lower performance car, it is still a race car. Its like comparing a 360 challenge race car to an enzo. The 360 will still be faster because its a race car.

The 911 ROAD cars are under the CGT.

This is a pure-bred race car. IT's only purpose in life is to get around the track as fast as possible. The CGT is a little of this but with more public friendly accessories.

Drop these accessories and the CGT will probably end up the most dominating race car from Porsche yet.

 

[McLaren]

Around Fiorano:
Ferrari 360 N-GT - 1.18.9
Enzo: 1.22.30

The whole point of the CGT is a near-racecar performance with all the things a race car doesn't have. I'd take a CGT over a 911RSR any day. I could drive it to the track, put my tires on, race, take the tires off, and drive home in comfort. Compare that to buying a 911RSR, a trailer and a truck to tow it, and a team to help you run it. It's not as fun as it sounds.

True, but these cars do appeal to different markets.

The RSR appeals to those who are no-nonsense race car drivers and owners who want to take home championships.

The Carrera GT is for those who want a Porsche supercar that still has track in it.

 

[JCE]

If you gave me $60,000 to buy a car with, I'd buy a 3-year old M5 and a Spec Miata racecar. There's no way I'd go looking at $60,000 cars, let alone $250,000 cars.

+1 $40k for a M5 or $35k for an '05 A6 and $20k for a used '04 Pontiac GTO. That's probably what I'd do.

 

[iceburns288]

True, but these cars do appeal to different markets.

The RSR appeals to those who are no-nonsense race car drivers and owners who want to take home championships.

The Carrera GT is for those who want a Porsche supercar that still has track in it.

No, the RSR appeals to the guys who can afford a CGT and want a race team under their name. No drivers are buying cars like that, it's the teams. Guys like Rick Hendrick. Who owns a CGT. And a race team.

 

[IMADreamer]

I think what is often overlooked by most people here is that not everyone cares about performance and that sometimes people like cars just because they do. You also have to consider cars like the Carerra GT, SLR Mclaren, and Enzo Ferrari will see very little driving time anyway. The vast majority of these cars are for collectors who are enthusiast in their own right but not in the sense that many of us are enthusiast.

I am sure most of us here have a hobby or something that we collect so I am sure we can all relate to it. It's not about practicality, usefulness, or all out speed with these ultra high end cars. Yes, sometimes they are used for status symbols, and sometimes they get tracked but in general they are collectibles in life size.

If I were uber rich I wouldn't even walk into a Pontiac, Audi or Mazda dealer. I would go straight for the big name hgih dollar dealerships and I would buy the living piss out of things. My car collection would be SLR Mclaren, SL 65 AMG (weekend driver), E55 AMG (daily driver), SL 55 AMG (top down weather daily driver). I would also have a nice host of Ferraris like a 250 GT, 430, 575, 360, 355, 512TR. Plus who knows what else. Sure in any of those cars I will not be the fastest on the road. I don't want to be nor do I need to be. It's not about that at all. Cars like Ferrari, and the AMG line offer something that Miatas, M3s, and others don't. I don't know how to put it in words but it's a feeling I get when I see one. It's that take your breath away feeling that those less expensive less exotic cars can't give you.

One of the funniest things I ever heard was some douchebag in a civic talking about how he "roasted" a Ferrari 360 once. I asked him if he thought the Ferrari owner really gave a rats ass if he got beat by a civic? I know I wouldn't.

Maybe I come from a different breed, but I dream big and if I ever get to the point where I can make my car dreams come true I will never look back.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, with the line between supercar and racecar becoming smaller and smaller, it is not going to make too huge of a difference either way at some point in time. Driveability and durability come into question when buying a racecar, and since they are often not street legal, there isnt much of a point to buying one unless you have the money.

IMO: For the $170K+ to buy the cheaper 911 Racecar, I would be more inclined to buy a Z06, Exige, and a Solstice to do some racing. I'd still have money left over, and that can be left to modifying the Solstice for competition, as the other two are set to go.

 

[amp88]

Very interesting article 👍

I saw someone mentioning this a while back but never went looking for it. Not a surprising result, but a good read anyway.

we get to see just how Porsche's fastest production car stacks up against its fastest 911 race car.

Isn't Porsche's fastest 911 racing car the 911 GT1?

 

[JCE]

If I were uber rich I wouldn't even walk into a Pontiac, Audi or Mazda dealer. I would go straight for the big name hgih dollar dealerships and I would buy the living piss out of things.

Then you would not be a true car enthusiast. It doesn't matter how much money you own--owning something like a GTO, RS4, or Corvette doesn't diminish the fact that you are rich. Buying nothing but supercars and super luxury cars just makes you a snob in my eyes. I'd have a certain respect for a rich person who buys something "cheap" like a GTO and actually DRIVES it.

 

[Carl.]

The whole point of the CGT is a near-racecar performance with all the things a race car doesn't have. I'd take a CGT over a 911RSR any day. I could drive it to the track, put my tires on, race, take the tires off, and drive home in comfort. Compare that to buying a 911RSR, a trailer and a truck to tow it, and a team to help you run it. It's not as fun as it sounds.

With $125K to $295K saved, I think one can afford a truck, a trailer and a driver to bring his 911RSR at the track while he drives from home in a much more confortable car.

 

[Jay]

Then you would not be a true car enthusiast. It doesn't matter how much money you own--owning something like a GTO, RS4, or Corvette doesn't diminish the fact that you are rich. Buying nothing but supercars and super luxury cars just makes you a snob in my eyes. I'd have a certain respect for a rich person who buys something "cheap" like a GTO and actually DRIVES it.

I agree completely, If I became extremely rich I would still buy a Mazda 6 MPS, Holden Monaro etc. I love the cars, not the image.

 

[Syntax error]

Although I&#8217;ve always been more interested in track cars (having owned a few myself), there is a big difference between the two and I feel that they serve totally different purposes. There are certain similarities, very big ones actually, but when it comes down to the crunch a race car is exactly that and well an exotic or supercar is a detuned or street complied machine.

My thoughts are that supercars are more of a status symbol (or compensation for other things), but a track car will always be a track car&#8230;

You could almost look at it in this perspective&#8230;. Compare a Touring car to a formula one car&#8230;. completely different set of rules by which it is designed.

On that note, I would always take the track car and drive a ****ter around on the road&#8230; or enjoy a classic car for a Sunday drive (if I had the money to afford one that is)&#8230;

 

[IMADreamer]

Then you would not be a true car enthusiast. It doesn't matter how much money you own--owning something like a GTO, RS4, or Corvette doesn't diminish the fact that you are rich. Buying nothing but supercars and super luxury cars just makes you a snob in my eyes. I'd have a certain respect for a rich person who buys something "cheap" like a GTO and actually DRIVES it.

I am extremely unimpressed by the GTO. Nothing about it is original, unique, or interesting to me. I think Pontiac totally dropped the ball by giving us a slightly worked over Holden and slapping the legendary GTO badge on it. I would gladly own a Corvette especially a splitwindow and maybe a Lingenfelter. A Viper has been one of my favorite cars for a long time and I would certainly own a 98 GTS if I were rich. Other then that I have to be honest there is nothing modern under 100k I would care to own. I like muscle cars and the cars I mentioned, plus I would want to add some classics and hot rods to my collection. If you think I am going to sit here and pretend I would go buy a miata, S2000, or a new Mustang your going to be waiting forever. Those cars are great for normal people but they don't hold a candle to the cars you could afford if you were making Ferrari money. Maybe you will consider me a snop someday but why would I buy something I have no interest in. I can buy a GTO now, if that's the car I am shooting for then I might as well retire today because I have nothing to work for.

EDIT: I was thinking about this alittle more and I was slightly offended by being told that my car selection made me a snob. I think if I were buying these cars to show off or impress my neighbors I would accept being called a snob but that's not why I want these cars. I have a passion for the AMG line and for Ferraris. You can go to my parents house to my old bedroom and still see that. I still have some Ferrari posters and models of Benzs and Ferraris in that room. It's not like I am trying to be a balla with my car selection and go all Bentley or just the big balla Mercedes. The AMG lineup is very much directed towards the enthusiast. I like the SL 65 AMG not because it's expensive but because that V12 and twins setup makes for one hell of a wild ride. That car has enough torque to spin the earth. It's not about looking cool or showing of, it's about have truely great cars. I think it's too bad people see Mercedes and think snob.

 

[Kylehnat]

"Common" people have a perception that Mercedes makes the best cars in the world. They don't. People buy the Benz for status. And rich people buy AMG's because they're willing to pay an extra $40,000 for that badge, which their less-rich friend does not have on the back of his car.

Given unlimited funds, I'd maybe buy a CL or CLK AMG model, but I certainly wouldn't clean out a Mercedes dealer just because I can. Sure, they're great cars, but owning every AMG model on earth is overkill.

We all have lists of exotic cars that we'd buy if we had the means, but realistically, I'd probably just buy a few cars: let's say a Mazdaspeed 6 for around-town, a BMW M5 for showing off and going out with friends, family, co-workers, etc..., and something in the $200,000+ category for occasional fun.

Your comment about never setting foot in a Pontiac, Audi, or Mazda dealer is simply short-sided. Audi and Mazda make great cars that can be had for pennies compared to what you want. Pontiac's GTO is better than you seem to think, and is a real sleeper. Only those in the know have any idea as to what it's packing. That kid in the riced-out Nissan will go home crying as he sucks on 400hp from your bland family sedan. That's a major part of the fun, which you seem to be missing.

Enthusiasts like to seek out the car that's different and fresh, even if it means stepping into a Mazda dealer for the first time. You've chosen to adore Mercedes and Ferrari, the two most stereotypical "status" manufacturers in the world, while renouncing other brands as cheap imitators. Mercedes and Ferrari make excellent cars, yes, but have you really chosen them because of their merit, or have you chosen them because you want to hear people say "ooooh, that guy has a Ferrari!"

 

[Dougboy]

Lastly, think about this: If I buy a Mazdaspeed 6, and you buy an SL 65, who is more likely to have their car broken into or stolen? Who is going to freak out more when a shopping cart nails the door? Who's insurance premium is going to rival the GDP of a small country?

if you consider those factors when buying a car, you are not thinking like the rich.