Supercars vs racecars

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Bubble Bunny
if you consider those factors when buying a car, you are not thinking like the rich.
Haha! True enough. Even if I were rich, I'd probably still be rather frugal. I took that part off of my post, since it was rather irrelevant.
 
Bubble Bunny
if you consider those factors when buying a car, you are not thinking like the rich.

Depends who. Ingvar Kamprad, Ikea's founder is worth 28 billions. Yet he drives a 93 Volvo 240 GL wagon. Paul Allen, worth 21 billions, drives a 88 Mazda B-Series pickup when he's in Seattle. Steve Ballmer (12.1 billions) drives a 98 Lincoln Continental.

:p

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JCE3000GT
Then you would not be a true car enthusiast. It doesn't matter how much money you own--owning something like a GTO, RS4, or Corvette doesn't diminish the fact that you are rich. Buying nothing but supercars and super luxury cars just makes you a snob in my eyes. I'd have a certain respect for a rich person who buys something "cheap" like a GTO and actually DRIVES it. :sly:
So if I'm a millionaire, and all I buy are supercars like a Saleen S7 Competition, Carrera GT, Quattroporte GT, etc., I'm a snob?

How so? Is it because I won't drive them? Maybe I'm collecting them and would rather put an investment in the Saleen and drive the Quattroporte instead of a GTO.
 
Anyone who knows what a Porsche Carrera GT is, knows that it's far from a "daily driver." As far as road cars go, the GT is quite the Formula 1. Not to mention the prestige, the status, build, name, the history behind the name, commemoration, style, amounts of R&D, and the exlusive quality.

No one just decides on a whim to buy a $400,000 super car like the Carrera GT without knowing a thing or two about the company who builds it. One would need to be an extensive collector and be a true enthusiast, who would first of all be able to afford a Carrera GT without a problem at all.

Not everyone just goes out and buys a Carrera GT without reason, nor does Porsche just hand them out to just anyone. The CGT is beyond the facet of money, just as the Enzo. Among other things, it's symballic of Porsche's success. It wasn't exactly built just for sheer performance, especially within the eyes of those who buy them.
 
FAOLIU05
Anyone who knows what a Porsche Carrera GT is, knows that it's far from a "daily driver." As far as road cars go, the GT is quite the Formula 1. Not to mention the prestige, the status, build, name, the history behind the name, commemoration, style, amounts of R&D, and the exlusive quality.

No one just decides on a whim to buy a $400,000 super car like the Carrera GT without knowing a thing or two about the company who builds it. One would need to be an extensive collector and be a true enthusiast, who would first of all be able to afford a Carrera GT without a problem at all.

Not everyone just goes out and buys a Carrera GT without reason, nor does Porsche just hand them out to just anyone. The CGT is beyond the facet of money, just as the Enzo. Among other things, it's symballic of Porsche's success. It wasn't exactly built just for sheer performance, especially within the eyes of those who buy them.


Actually, Porsche don't care who you are as long as you're putting down $450,000.

Not to mention, there really is no "history" behind the Carrera GT. Only records WHICH will go down in its history.

As some of you know, the Carrera GT production has stopped and the last of them are being sold off.
 
kylehnat
"Common" people have a perception that Mercedes makes the best cars in the world. They don't. People buy the Benz for status. And rich people buy AMG's because they're willing to pay an extra $40,000 for that badge, which their less-rich friend does not have on the back of his car.

Given unlimited funds, I'd maybe buy a CL or CLK AMG model, but I certainly wouldn't clean out a Mercedes dealer just because I can. Sure, they're great cars, but owning every AMG model on earth is overkill.

We all have lists of exotic cars that we'd buy if we had the means, but realistically, I'd probably just buy a few cars: let's say a Mazdaspeed 6 for around-town, a BMW M5 for showing off and going out with friends, family, co-workers, etc..., and something in the $200,000+ category for occasional fun.

Your comment about never setting foot in a Pontiac, Audi, or Mazda dealer is simply short-sided. Audi and Mazda make great cars that can be had for pennies compared to what you want. Pontiac's GTO is better than you seem to think, and is a real sleeper. Only those in the know have any idea as to what it's packing. That kid in the riced-out Nissan will go home crying as he sucks on 400hp from your bland family sedan. That's a major part of the fun, which you seem to be missing.

Enthusiasts like to seek out the car that's different and fresh, even if it means stepping into a Mazda dealer for the first time. You've chosen to adore Mercedes and Ferrari, the two most stereotypical "status" manufacturers in the world, while renouncing other brands as cheap imitators. Mercedes and Ferrari make excellent cars, yes, but have you really chosen them because of their merit, or have you chosen them because you want to hear people say "ooooh, that guy has a Ferrari!"


If you think AMG is just a 40k dollar badging you should get out of this discussion right now. No offense man but it's a lot more then that. Maybe you are thinking of AMG kits and not AMG models? The AMG models feature hand built engines with the one builder one engine concept. Plus they pack a hell of a punch and have the suspension set up to hold it all down.

I also didn't say I would buy every AMG model in the lineup but I had three specific ones in mind. The E55 AMG is one bad ass car capable of being daily driven. I honestly can't think of another car I would like to haul myself and my family around in. I think it is faster then a GTO last time I checked. I think that could catch some people off gaurd. The SL55 AMG is a great fun car for the weekends and the SL65 AMG is just an unholy beast. Plus with all these you get a great amount of luxary. It's not like I would buy these cars because they say Mercedes on the name plate. They are truely great cars. If I wanted a Mercedes just to have a Mercedes I would own a C350 right now. I am not one of those people I asure you.

As for roasting ricers (I hate that term and it's played out) if that's your thing then go for it. I have much better things to do with my time then deal with teenagers and 20 somethings who think they are all that because they can put stickers on their car. There is a large plethora of cars that can shock people who don't know about cars. It's when you can impress car enthusiast is when you really got something.

I'm not going to sit here and bash the GTO. I can't argue with 400hp. I respect it greatly in that sense and it's priced right also. However, your not going to suprise anyone who knows anything about cars with it. The only people who will be suprised are the import kiddies.

I'm not renouncing any car maker as a cheap imitator. Please don't put words in my mouth. I will readily give any car the respect it derserves. I like mazdas cars and for the money I make, my next car may very well be a mazda. I really like the MS 6 and the RX-8 has had my attention since it hit the shores. Honestly, I am not a fan of audi. They make nothing that peaks my interest. As for Pontiac, you know what I think of the GTO. It's got good punch but it's styling and the fact that it wears the GTO badge but is an import is a huge disapointment consider they are touting it as the rebirth of a legend. If you look in the news and rumors section where we talked about the G6 GXP you will see that I have said a lot of good things about the G6. I really really like those cars. It seems like Pontiac hit a homer with them.

I need to wrap this up so I will finish by saying I am not saying cars like Pontiac, and Mazda suck and are inferior. They have their place and have their perks just like any car maker. However, if I am a billionare there is no way in hell they make anything that's going in my garage. If you think I want a SL65 AMG or a 430 Ferrari because i want people to look at me and googoo and gaga over them you are wrong. I want those cars because they are on a level of greatness that I am not sure you understand. Those cars have a soul and presence that the new GTO will never have. I am just curious but have you ever been near a Ferrari? The few times I have I almost wet myself when I heard the engine rev up as it took off. If you can't get excited by that you aren't a car guy. The reason I want a Ferrari is to get that excited feeling everytime I hit the gas on a spirited drive. I will never get that in a GTO.
 
YSSMAN
Well, with the line between supercar and racecar becoming smaller and smaller, it is not going to make too huge of a difference either way at some point in time. Driveability and durability come into question when buying a racecar, and since they are often not street legal, there isnt much of a point to buying one unless you have the money.

That's totally wrong - supercars are moving further away from racecars every year. Supercars these days are much more able to cope with everyday driving and useability than they ever have been. Race cars, even the ones based around a road car like the 911 RSR are becoming less and less like road cars in the way their chassis are set-up - you could never drive an RSR on the road. 40 years ago, cars like the 250GTO could be driven to the track then compete at a top international level without any changes at all.

YSSMAN
IMO: For the $170K+ to buy the cheaper 911 Racecar, I would be more inclined to buy a Z06, Exige, and a Solstice to do some racing. I'd still have money left over, and that can be left to modifying the Solstice for competition, as the other two are set to go.

You'd buy two great handling road racers, developed to be equally at home on the track as on the road, like the Z06 & Exige .Then modify a really crappy soft sportscar to use a track car? - what kind of ****ed-up logic is that? ;)
 
The Carrera GT would be a much more enjoyable driving experience, and much more exploitable for the avaerage to good driver. It also isn't fitted with the slicks of the RSR, and can be driven on the road. All of these reason would persuade me to buy the GT, but you could probably afford both, if you had the cash for a CGT.
 
IMADreamer
If you think AMG is just a 40k dollar badging you should get out of this discussion right now. No offense man but it's a lot more then that. Maybe you are thinking of AMG kits and not AMG models? The AMG models feature hand built engines with the one builder one engine concept. Plus they pack a hell of a punch and have the suspension set up to hold it all down.

While I don't disagree with any of this, there's one claim there which needs looking at more closely.

AMG produce 18,000 engines a year for AMG-range Mercedes models (and a couple for Pagani). By my maths, that's 50 engines a day - every day of the year. Now, I don't know how many employees AMG has but if they have anything less than 100 guys on shift all the time they're going to be hard pushed to even bolt the parts together, never mind machining them too.
 
Famine
While I don't disagree with any of this, there's one claim there which needs looking at more closely.

AMG produce 18,000 engines a year for AMG-range Mercedes models (and a couple for Pagani). By my maths, that's 50 engines a day - every day of the year. Now, I don't know how many employees AMG has but if they have anything less than 100 guys on shift all the time they're going to be hard pushed to even bolt the parts together, never mind machining them too.

Yep, that point was raised in an old episode of top gear. Obviously they're not actually totally hand built.
 
FAOLIU05
Anyone who knows what a Porsche Carrera GT is, knows that it's far from a "daily driver."

Really?!? I thought it was exactly like an Accord but with a removable roof panel and funny lug nuts.


M
 
Famine
While I don't disagree with any of this, there's one claim there which needs looking at more closely.

AMG produce 18,000 engines a year for AMG-range Mercedes models (and a couple for Pagani). By my maths, that's 50 engines a day - every day of the year. Now, I don't know how many employees AMG has but if they have anything less than 100 guys on shift all the time they're going to be hard pushed to even bolt the parts together, never mind machining them too.


Check out Mercedes website. mbusa.com then go to the AMG center you can watch a video of them putting one together. OBVIOUSLY they aren't hand machine engines and yes there is some machine assistance on things like that but the engines are hand asymbled. I think you know what I meant but are just being nit picky for no reason other then to argue.

The fact is the AMG model lineup is far more then a re-badging and if that's what someone thinks when they see an AMG it's no wonder they think AMG owners are just snobs. However that is not always true, the AMG lineup makes cars for true enthusiast and a true enthusiast should be able to see that.
 
IMADreamer
However that is not always true, the AMG lineup makes cars for true enthusiast and a true enthusiast should be able to see that.

No, Merc Benz enthusiasts with deeper pockets buy AMG - true motoring enthusiasts buy M Power or Porsche.
 
TheCracker
No, Merc Benz enthusiasts with deeper pockets buy AMG - true motoring enthusiasts buy M Power or Porsche.

Indeed!
 
TheCracker
No, Merc Benz enthusiasts with deeper pockets buy AMG - true motoring enthusiasts buy M Power or Porsche.

Maybe your not a true enthusiast since you can't seem to see the greatness of the AMG cars?

Actually I think BMW enthusiast buy M power because they are BMW fans and not car enthusiast in general, although I would say the M series has great enthusiast cars fro the general car guy. It's all what your preference is really. I would expect a car collector with great resources would probably have a few of each company (Benz, BMW, Porsche). While I am a huge fan of both BMW and Porsche I think it would be hard to say that true enthusiast would buy a M over an AMG. I think they are targeted towards the exact same crowd and the chances of a nonbias buyer purchasing any one car from either company would have to be equal. I think a true enthusiast would probably drive both the M and the AMG and then decide from there. One thing that would have me lean towards the M after an initial test drive would be the SMG tranny. I am a huge fan of that and I wish Mercedes would figure that out. They have thier sport shift tranny but I don't think it's nearly as refined as the SMG.

Maybe my opinion has a lot to do with where I live but the only people around here that buy BMW are self indulgent snobs that want you to think they really have something. I guess that's the way you see Mercedes owners but I think it swings both ways really. Where I come from Mercedes are much more rare and AMG models are non existant. I guess that's part of why I would like one. So I can be a little different. By buying a BMW I think I would be labled as someone who is trying to fit in with the people in the big houses on snob knob (the wealthy part of my town). Every other house there has a M and none of them are car enthusiast.

I can't sit here and say anything about Porsche though, I agree that with the exception of the Boxster they are a true enthusiast company. The Boxster is for posers.

I'm not going to sit here and argue which company is better. It's useless and if some of you are fanboys of a company there is no way to win the arguement. Plus the fact is that no company is the best. Each does somethings well and others not and honestly it all comes down to a preference of styling and options. I perfer the AMG line up over an M or a GTO :rolleyes: However if a GTO is your thing then more power to you, it's a much more attainable dream car then any of the cars I dream about.

I would just hope that those of you who claim to be car enthusiast can see why the AMG line is great. My real beef is with the guy who told me I was snob because I would go buy AMGs and Ferraris and not a damn GTO. It's propasterous to instantly label me as someone who couldn't be an enthusiast for that choice. Even with my real world budget the GTO is pretty far from the top of my list of potential cars I would buy as my next car. Let alone if I had a millionares budget.

My whole point, instead of being judgemental try to see the good in all cars. It will make you a more positive person and you will be able to enjoy the car hobby to a much fuller extent then if you try and find faults or judge every car and everyone who drives that car.
 
I wouldn't agree with the person who accused IMADreamer of not being an "enthusiast", BUT....

IMADreamer
Maybe my opinion has a lot to do with where I live but the only people around here that buy BMW are self indulgent snobs that want you to think they really have something.

..oh... kay..

IMADreamer
By buying a BMW I think I would be labled as someone who is trying to fit in with the people in the big houses on snob knob (the wealthy part of my town).

..uh huh

IMADreamer
The Boxster is for posers.

..gotcha..

IMADreamer
My whole point, instead of being judgemental try to see the good in all cars. It will make you a more positive person and you will be able to enjoy the car hobby to a much fuller extent then if you try and find faults or judge every car and everyone who drives that car.*

* emphasis mine

...Does anyone else find this post really ironic?


M
 
IMADreamer
Check out Mercedes website. mbusa.com then go to the AMG center you can watch a video of them putting one together. OBVIOUSLY they aren't hand machine engines and yes there is some machine assistance on things like that but the engines are hand asymbled. I think you know what I meant but are just being nit picky for no reason other then to argue.

Well isn't someone on the defensive?

All I said was that I'd heard the claim before and didn't think that it was feasible from a mathematical point of view. I wasn't arguing with you, and made a point of stressing this. However, if it was so OBVIOUS, why did you reiterate the fallacy?
 
///M-Spec
...Does anyone else find this post really ironic?


M

Uh yes, I do.

I have to say it does make the mind boggle.

Still, I belive we had a similar conversation running over in the Porsce GT3 thread, with the same nonsense about the Boxster as well.

Scaff
 
Sadly this is what alot of brits think about BMW drivers. I myself dont notice this stuff, but instead notice that all kinds of idiots dont use theyre blincking indicators. Really annyoing if trying to walk across a roundabout.

bimmadrivers3jr.jpg



BMW drivers are saying its people being jealous of theyre car and money. They might be right. I for one never get jealous of a person unless they have lamborghinis etc. And lots of them at that not just one.
 
I would edit out the 4 letter word beginning with t and ending with t aswell.
 
^ That'd be pretty damn funny, once you edit out the profanity.

*sends PM*


M
 
Your right that was very contradicatry of what I said. In case you didn't notice I suck at explaining things. I know what I want to say but just talk circles around it and can't get out what I want. Oh well. Hopefully someone got what I was saying. lol
 
On the subject of "true enthusiasts," I'll just say this -- a true automotive enthusiast sees the good in all cars, regardless of what country it comes from, what manufacturer it comes from, who drives them, or what it excels at (straight-line, cornering, looking good at a car show, whatever).

Examples of true automotive enthusiasts include Barry Meguiar (as can be seen on his show on SPEED TV, "Car Crazy"), and the editors of Grassroots Motorsports magazine...
 
Poverty
what if its a lada riveria 1400? :lol:

Yup, that too.

If a Lada Riveria 1400 owner appeared on Car Crazy, Barry would commend him and think it's neat to be an enthusiast for such a car.

If Grassroots Motorsports got their hands on a Lada Riveria 1400, they'd probably modify it and turn it into an awesome autocrosser. (kinda like how Lotus tuned that one guy's Lada on Top Gear)
 
IMO the difference between a super car and a race car is the luxury you travel in. Supercars should be quite well done out on teh insider while you'd expect a race car to have bare body work and a roll cage you have to limbo through to get out of the car.

IMADreamer IMO the problem with MB is that they go over teh top with luxuries. Which means they then end up with very heavy cars, which they then chuck massive engines in that create huge amounts of torque. Which is good, but would be nice without the weight aswell.
 
IMADreamer
If you think AMG is just a 40k dollar badging you should get out of this discussion right now. No offense man but it's a lot more then that. Maybe you are thinking of AMG kits and not AMG models? The AMG models feature hand built engines with the one builder one engine concept. Plus they pack a hell of a punch and have the suspension set up to hold it all down.
Perhaps I should clarify my statement, as I worded it sort of ambiguously. I know what is under the hood of AMG models--an unholy beast with enough torque to put holes in the pavement. However, a lot of the 7-figure executives only buy them because their neighbor has an SL500, but they don't have that cool little AMG badge and can't afford the extra $30,000. It's a buying decision made on ego, not sincere interest.

IMADreamer
It's when you can impress car enthusiast is when you really got something.
Exactly, but an AMG is not going to do that. I see a guy with one, I say "cool car", and I mean it, but I've seen it before, so I don't get that excited about it.

IMADreamer
I'm not going to sit here and bash the GTO. I can't argue with 400hp. I respect it greatly in that sense and it's priced right also.
Is this the kind of respect you're talking about?
IMADreamer
I am extremely unimpressed by the GTO. Nothing about it is original, unique, or interesting to me. I think Pontiac totally dropped the ball by giving us a slightly worked over Holden and slapping the legendary GTO badge on it.

I'm almost done, I promise...
IMADreamer
I am just curious but have you ever been near a Ferrari? The few times I have I almost wet myself when I heard the engine rev up as it took off. If you can't get excited by that you aren't a car guy. The reason I want a Ferrari is to get that excited feeling everytime I hit the gas on a spirited drive. I will never get that in a GTO.
Yes I have, as a matter of fact. Many Ferraris. They sound excellent, as you can't quite top the sound of an Italian V12, or the current V8 in the F430 (though both sound girly compared to their 115 dB racing counterparts). But every rapper, athlete, and his brother has one. Ferrari isn't the exclusive car it once was. I salivate at old-school Ferraris because there aren't many left, and I don't see them every day. Whenever I see an F355 or 360, I just sort of shrug. With equivalent money, I would choose to buy something else.

One last compliment to the GTO: American V8. If that sound doesn't get you excited, check your pulse.
 
kylehnat
One last compliment to the GTO: American V8. If that sound doesn't get you excited, check your pulse.


I couldn't agree more. I love the sound of a big American V8, it definately gets my blood pumping. I especially love the sound of an LS1 with open headers. My old neighbor used to have an LS1 Camaro with cutouts and DAMN that thing sounded sweet.

As for every rappers owning Ferraris I don't give a damn who owns one and how many. I love the car and they sound great, especially with a tubi exhaust. I just love the cars, I guess I can't explain it. I want a ferrari and it's nothing to do with impressing my neighbors I just want one.

The thing I like about the AMGs is the great power with the luxary. Yes they weigh a ton and could perform better if Benz took a more performance orientated mind with them but for what they are they are awsome.

My reservations with the GTO are not in it's performance but in the fact that GM labels it the GTO and calls it the rebirth of a classic when that car has nothing to do with the original GTO or it's heritage. That's my beef with it. While the car with exhaust sounds good I just don't get the spine tingling feeling from it I do other cars. Maybe I just am looking for reasons to not like the car. I don't know.

I know I want to live where you do because the only time I ever see Ferraris are when I go to Chicago once a year to visit family. I only see them then because we always go to some fancy smancy resturaunt that always has one or two sitting out front.
 
IMADreamer
I couldn't agree more. I love the sound of a big American V8, it definately gets my blood pumping. I especially love the sound of an LS1 with open headers. My old neighbor used to have an LS1 Camaro with cutouts and DAMN that thing sounded sweet.

As for every rappers owning Ferraris I don't give a damn who owns one and how many. I love the car and they sound great, especially with a tubi exhaust. I just love the cars, I guess I can't explain it. I want a ferrari and it's nothing to do with impressing my neighbors I just want one.

The thing I like about the AMGs is the great power with the luxary. Yes they weigh a ton and could perform better if Benz took a more performance orientated mind with them but for what they are they are awsome.

My reservations with the GTO are not in it's performance but in the fact that GM labels it the GTO and calls it the rebirth of a classic when that car has nothing to do with the original GTO or it's heritage. That's my beef with it. While the car with exhaust sounds good I just don't get the spine tingling feeling from it I do other cars. Maybe I just am looking for reasons to not like the car. I don't know.

I know I want to live where you do because the only time I ever see Ferraris are when I go to Chicago once a year to visit family. I only see them then because we always go to some fancy smancy resturaunt that always has one or two sitting out front.

Just a small tidbit.

As you know, the GTO is going to be dead after June.
However, you may some faith in the GTO in 2008 when it will "supposedly" share more with the classic than it did today after it is revived once again.
 
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