Suspension question

[Perfect Balance]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Subaru Impreza WRX, and we were having a debate on what suspension would be better to get.

He want bilstein because of their race proven parts, so he's saying getting a part from a company that spends millions of dollars on research is the best way to go, because you know that buying something from them means getting a part made at the level race cars are built at.

I'm saying something like Tein or another Japanese company is the best way to go because both parts from both companies are capable of withstanding anything the car can do, so quality isn't an issue, so it's better to go with the company that actually spends time designing a part specifically for that car that will work good on the streets, instead of just relying on the companies reputation alone. A high quality Japanese company usually tunes these types of cars and would know more about what works best for them IMO, than a company that just has a really high reputation in the racing world.

Also, the foreign companies mostly tune other types of cars instead of just focusing on a couple Japanese cars.


To sum it up, Bilstein = Extremely high quality/race proven, against, Tein or similar company = Still high quality/parts proven on the specific car itself.


What do you guys think?


EDIT: Please no "Neither, get (other suspension brand) instead" type of posts.

 

[YSSMAN]

Honestly, I'd look into what the WRX/STi racing teams are using for their suspension kits. Chances are, if they're working on the GT or WRC cars, they'll be more than good on the street. He is right with the Bilstein race-proven performance, and chances are, if that is what he wants to do, that will indeed be the best way to go.

Did Tien ever end up brining out those mechanically adjustable shocks I recall reading about not too long ago? That may not be a bad investment, due to the fact you could go from street spec to race spec with the press of a button. Problem is, I have no idea what the stress factor would be on a part like that.

 

[slidesquad#1]

While I wouldn't know too much about WRX's, Bilstein did (and probably still do) the suspension on the RSK-B4 and GT-B Legacy's such as my wagon, so they should have a fairly good idea of what they're doing with Subarus. Having said that Tein/HKS/Cusco etc. have done a lot of work with them as well, so their packages should also be pretty good.

What is your mate planning to do with the car? Just lowering it or getting fully adjustable coilovers? I'm not too familiar with Bilstein adjustables for the WRX, but I'm sure they won't be too shabby. Wont be cheap though.

 

[///M-Spec]

I think before you make any changes to any car, you should know exactly what it is you are trying to accomplish with the changes. And before you know what you're trying to change, you need to know what's wrong with the car in the first place.

What's the problem with the car as it is? Not enough roll stiffness? Poor transient response? Steady state understeer?

Step 1: Identify things you want to change
Step 2: Determine what your budget is
Step 3: Research the which parts are best suited to making the change without impacting characteristics you want to retain and while staying within your budget

It's as simple as that.

Also, this is probably not what you want to hear, but I'm going to say it anyway. Besides, its been a while since I've had myself a good rant.

If your friend doesn't have a good grasp on what he's trying to do, tell him to save his money and not to bother until he does.

These days, too many people start messing with their cars and they have no idea why they're doing it. They're only doing it because everyone else is doing it. God forbid they meet up with their friends in a parking lot somewhere and have to tell them "uh, its stock".

They buy whatever their friends say is good or whats prominently featured in XYZ magazine, but they don't do any real research and they don't do any testing. They usually don't have any high performance driver training and have no idea how to even drive their cars properly in the first place.

So they spend all this time/money and monkey around with their suspension, get adjustable this an' that but they don't have the slightest clue why they're adjusting it, they just make it the lowest and stiffest it will go. Then they wonder why their car is hitting the bump stops all the time and rides like crap. Or they think because the car rides like crap they must have the best handling car eVAR.

One day, they go to an autocross or track day and get their butts handed to them by guys in bone stock cars with 100 less hp.

Hmmm. Wonder why that is?

Yes. It's your friend's car and it's your friend's money. He should do whatever he thinks is best. But you asked for opinions and I'm giving you mine. The WRX is a good handling car out of the box. I've driven it; it doesn't suck. Don't change the stock suspension for the sake of changing it. Tell him to do a season of autocross. Learn where the stock suspension is strong and where it is weak.

After he has plenty of seat time, he should be able to identify what aspect of the car is holding him back from better times. In other words, he will get to a point where the car is holding him back, and NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. Only THEN should he start changing the suspension.


M

 

[TheCracker]

If your friend is intent on upgrading his suspension, then the best place to look for advice would be a Subaru forum. Many people there will have done the conversion themselves and will be in the best position to give their opinions one way or the other.

 

[Keef]

PB, your friend should attend autocrosses like M said. I was just at an event Friday night talking to some Civic racers about how they've tuned their suspensions and engines. Subaru WRXs and STis are very popular autocross and track cars, so there'd be no shortage of people racing them at an event. There were 9 of them that I counted. Your friend could get a lot of information from them and make his own decisions by driving his own car. Give it a go.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Honestly, I'd look into what the WRX/STi racing teams are using for their suspension kits. Chances are, if they're working on the GT or WRC cars, they'll be more than good on the street. He is right with the Bilstein race-proven performance, and chances are, if that is what he wants to do, that will indeed be the best way to go.

Did Tien ever end up brining out those mechanically adjustable shocks I recall reading about not too long ago? That may not be a bad investment, due to the fact you could go from street spec to race spec with the press of a button. Problem is, I have no idea what the stress factor would be on a part like that.

I think of it this way, even though Bilstein is working for WRC and GT, that isn't the same suspension he would get for the street. They would both be too harsh and stiff for the roads, and wouldn't provide the best handling on normal streets that are bumpy and badly made. So even though the quality is there, chances are they didn't test the suspension as much for the street car.

And yes Tein did come out with the electronically adjustable shock, great little toy it is. Tein suspensions are used on time attack cars and super taikyu, so they're plenty strong enough.

What is your mate planning to do with the car? Just lowering it or getting fully adjustable coilovers? I'm not too familiar with Bilstein adjustables for the WRX, but I'm sure they won't be too shabby. Wont be cheap though.

Money isn't the problem, but since I think bilstein only makes shocks/struts for this car, they will be paired with a set of springs too. I'm not sure how adjustable that is, which also supports my reasons for getting full coilovers instead, which were designed to work with themselves and they parts they are made of.

snip

This guy knows how to drive. His dad used to be a rally driver, hence the WRX, and the rally influenced choice of Bilstein for suspensions. This isn't for now either, just thinking ahead so he'll have some ideas in the future. He will be going to autocrosses and tracks this year, and his dad is also a great teacher when it comes to car control.

You don't need to really know where the suspension is weak or strong because you are replacing it with something stronger than anything stock on your car. Once you upgrade the strength of it, then you adjust it to do what you need. Sure, there's things like anti-roll bars and control arms, but this is a beginners level upgrade so far, the rest will come later, or when the time comes to buy the suspension.

 

[Keef]

You don't need to really know where the suspension is weak or strong because you are replacing it with something stronger than anything stock on your car. Once you upgrade the strength of it, then you adjust it to do what you need. Sure, there's things like anti-roll bars and control arms, but this is a beginners level upgrade so far, the rest will come later, or when the time comes to buy the suspension.[/color]

I'm going to have to disagree with the statements you make about strength. I know through personal experience that the steel my Eibach struts are made from is not as thick and much weaker than the high-strength stuff used by Honda.

The rear shocks have a fork on the bottom that goes around either side of the control arm. We needed to bend that fork slightly to get it to fit. When we tried to bend the other stock fork to get it off, there was no way we could bend it. A hefty screw driver sufficed for the Eibach, but a big crow bar wouldn't bend the stock steel. Factory-designed parts are engineered to very high-quality specifications and rival anything the aftermarket has to offer.

But the Eibach steel is still quite strong enough to handle whatever I could throw at it, so there's no worries there. This situation is similar to companies claiming their aluminum LCAs for our Hondas are stronger than the factory steel units. Eibach, AEM, Tein, Koni, KW, Bilstein, and just about all the others don't match factory strength. Some do make parts for car companies, but the aftermarket kits they offer for cars other than the ones they specialize on aren't up to factory quality. Mainly because it costs money to make it strong and it doesn't need to be that strong.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I'm going to have to disagree with the statements you make about strength. I know through personal experience that the steel my Eibach struts are made from is not as thick and much weaker than the high-strength stuff used by Honda.

The rear shocks have a fork on the bottom that goes around either side of the control arm. We needed to bend that fork slightly to get it to fit. When we tried to bend the other stock fork to get it off, there was no way we could bend it. A hefty screw driver sufficed for the Eibach, but a big crow bar wouldn't bend the stock steel. Factory-designed parts are engineered to very high-quality specifications and rival anything the aftermarket has to offer.

But the Eibach steel is still quite strong enough to handle whatever I could throw at it, so there's no worries there. This situation is similar to companies claiming their aluminum LCAs for our Hondas are stronger than the factory steel units. Eibach, AEM, Tein, Koni, KW, Bilstein, and just about all the others don't match factory strength. Some do make parts for car companies, but the aftermarket kits they offer for cars other than the ones they specialize on aren't up to factory quality. Mainly because it costs money to make it strong and it doesn't need to be that strong.

Eibach isn't that great of a base when you are talking about high quality parts keef. You get what you pay for, and Eibach isn't very expensive.

Please, stay on topic. State which one you would think would be better off to get, and your opinion why. Something like ///M-Spec's post, although a great post, is unnecessary and still didn't tell me what would be a better choice. I realize you says the better choice would be the one better suited to the need, but the only need/want is better handling. Regardless of ride height and other suspension settings, there is also dampening. I've heard a lot about cheap coilovers not having a good valving setup. In the end I would say it basically comes down to that factor, and I think a company that made coilovers and tested them on that specific car would come closer to the perfect setting.

Which one would you think is better and why, that's all.

 

[Keef]

COBB Tuning specializes in tuning Subarus, along with a few cars from a few other companies. If I had the money I'd go with COBB suspension parts for my own Subaru. The company has only been operating since 1999, but they've come along way and really jump started the Subaru aftermarket.

EDIT: I would go as far to say that if COBB doesn't offer it for Subaru, it isn't needed. Only professional racers are actually going to use their 188-way adjustable racing coilover setup. Surely you could Email them and ask if there's a particular type of damper that works best with their springs. They might recommend you stick with the factory dampers.

 

[Perfect Balance]

COBB Tuning specializes in tuning Subarus, along with a few cars from a few other companies. If I had the money I'd go with COBB suspension parts for my own Subaru.

They don't have coilovers, but I think their springs would be a good combo with Bilstein struts.

EDIT: Sure, it isn't needed, But springs paired with stock struts won't get you very good handling. The stock struts are designed with ride comfort in mind, no matter how "sporty" the car is. COBB may not offer it for Subaru just because they don't need to. They have a great suspension for a race car, so if you race the car on a track, it's great. On the street, you shouldn't be racing anyways, so springs should be sufficient. Of course, if you want a car that does great on the track and still drivable, you'll need to look elsewhere. They can't abide to everyone's needs/wants.

 

[Joey D]

Bilstein = Extremely high quality/race proven

I find that funny because I have...err rather had Bilstein shocks on my truck when I bought it from the factory. Maybe they have their passenger car line and then their sports line...I don't know.

I didn't mind them, they gave me a good ride and they were decently stiff so I could take a turn as well as a non-lowered, stock, 3700 lbs SUV could.

 

[///M-Spec]

This guy knows how to drive. His dad used to be a rally driver, hence the WRX, and the rally influenced choice of Bilstein for suspensions. This isn't for now either, just thinking ahead so he'll have some ideas in the future. He will be going to autocrosses and tracks this year, and his dad is also a great teacher when it comes to car control.

Eh. Most people think they're better drivers than they are.

You don't need to really know where the suspension is weak or strong because you are replacing it with something stronger than anything stock on your car. Once you upgrade the strength of it, then you adjust it to do what you need. Sure, there's things like anti-roll bars and control arms, but this is a beginners level upgrade so far, the rest will come later, or when the time comes to buy the suspension.

I'm not talking about physical strength. When I say "where the suspension is strong and where it is weak" I mean what it is good at, and what it is not so good at.

Look, a suspension is series of design compromises. Because of conflicting requirements, it is virtually impossible for a suspension to be all things to all people. Invariably there will be things that a particular suspension is good at and things it is not so good at.

All I'm saying is if you want intelligent recommendations, you (your friend really, since its his car) need to identify what aspect of the car's handling you are hoping to improve.

What's the problem with the stock suspension? Can you articulate this?

Something like ///M-Spec's post, although a great post, is unnecessary and still didn't tell me what would be a better choice.

I'm glad you think my post was great even though it was no help to you, but you have to understand that when someone asks me what the best choice is the answer is always, "it depends on what you are trying to do."


M

 

[Perfect Balance]

Eh. Most people think they're better drivers than they are.

I realize that, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to upgrade your car.

I'm not talking about physical strength. When I say "where the suspension is strong and where it is weak" I mean what it is good at, and what it is not so good at.

I wasn't sure which "strength" you meant, so I just picked one.

All I'm saying is if you want intelligent recommendations, you (your friend really, since its his car) need to identify what aspect of the car's handling you are hoping to improve.

Every aspect that makes the car go through a corner faster.

What's the problem with the stock suspension? Can you articulate this?

A lower center of gravity, adjustability, ability to take more abuse on a track, looks, and overall performance are all reasons. What is wrong with a stock suspension on a race car? Take the same problems as the race car would have, and just make them less extreme, and you have an answer.

I'm glad you think my post was great even though it was no help to you, but you have to understand that when someone asks me what the best choice is the answer is always, "it depends on what you are trying to do."

What he is trying to do is get better handling. That mainly depends on the settings, but you need to be able to change them first. Like I said before, it basically runs down to which damper will have better valving. Bad valving won't be good no matter what your settings are, so that's why I think a company that spends more time working with those types of cars will know better what works best.

 

[Keef]

I still don't understand why he wants so much adjustability.

Are you talking about turning the shocks softer for a trip down the highway and then twisting them stiff again for corners, like my old Konis? Or are you talking about complete alignment adjustability, bound and rebound adjustments, ride height, spring rate and the whole works?

I realize he may want all that adjustability, and it's cool to impress lesser friends by saying you have a full race suspension. But is he going to use it or just waste money on it?

 

[Tulok]

what he is saying is:
which suspension is designed better, don't worry about what he is doing, probably autocross, just which is a better part, if a scientist tested it in his lab for quality.

 

[Keef]

Oh, I forgot about a company. Call up Prodrive. They make some pretty high-quality stuff.

 

[Perfect Balance]

I still don't understand why he wants so much adjustability.

Are you talking about turning the shocks softer for a trip down the highway and then twisting them stiff again for corners, like my old Konis? Or are you talking about complete alignment adjustability, bound and rebound adjustments, ride height, spring rate and the whole works?

I realize he may want all that adjustability, and it's cool to impress lesser friends by saying you have a full race suspension. But is he going to use it or just waste money on it?

What do you mean so much adjustability? Strut/Spring combo has dampening force adjustment and that's all, which is what he wants. I'm suggesting coilovers for dampening, ride height and camber adjustment. Still, that isn't near a full race coilover.

what he is saying is:
which suspension is designed better, don't worry about what he is doing, probably autocross, just which is a better part, if a scientist tested it in his lab for quality.

👍 Although not really quality, just what will yeild better results in the long run, or what is more worth it.

Oh, I forgot about a company. Call up Prodrive. They make some pretty high-quality stuff.

I know, but please read the end of the first post.

 

[Azuremen]

So what he really wants is Sleeve overs... not Coil overs. Coil overs let you adjust not just ride right buy the suspension travel as well. What you are speaking of it just adjusting how high the car sits on the springs, which if you lower too much without getting short throw shocks, you hit the bump stops and thats bad.

Handling better is a subjective term. I drove the crap out of a stock 2006 WRX, and I could find few flaws in the suspension setup. No, it was not as aggressive turn in as my MR2, nor was it as twitchy. However, lowering a Subaru suspension kinda kills one of its best features - its travel and composure on rough roads.

And as for adjustably, its over rated. I have Eibach Ground Controls and Tokico 5 way adjustable shocks on my MR2. However, if I was to adjust right hide, I would need to get a new alignment done. That, and the adjustable struts aren't as adjustable as one would think, due to having to maintain a certain level of stiffness from the lowering of the car. So I really only have 3 settings out of the 5 I bother using on the shocks.

So I have to echo M's question - what are you trying to address in the suspension? What goal do you have? Simply lowering a car does not mean it will always handle better. My friend's MR2 is a perfect example, it understeers like a pig in comparison to mine, or even a stock MR2.

To address the original question - go with Tien. More so if this is just a start and he will be upgrading again. Though honestly, I would just say get a thick rear sway bar and see what that does for the car and its handling. Will make a bigger impact than the shocks and springs, and will let you have that awesome Subaru suspension travel.

And FYI - higher cost does not always make for better parts, just makes for a better known name.

 

[Perfect Balance]

So what he really wants is Sleeve overs... not Coil overs.

No, he wants bilstein shocks paired with some kind of springs.

Coil overs let you adjust not just ride right buy the suspension travel as well.

Not always.

What you are speaking of it just adjusting how high the car sits on the springs, which if you lower too much without getting short throw shocks, you hit the bump stops and thats bad.

I know. I don't need a lesson on how a suspension works.

Handling better is a subjective term.

Although ease of control plays a big role in it, when I say a car handles well, I'm referring to the speed it can go through corners.

And as for adjustably, its over rated. I have Eibach Ground Controls and Tokico 5 way adjustable shocks on my MR2. However, if I was to adjust right hide, I would need to get a new alignment done. That, and the adjustable struts aren't as adjustable as one would think, due to having to maintain a certain level of stiffness from the lowering of the car. So I really only have 3 settings out of the 5 I bother using on the shocks.

I strongly disagree that adjustability is over rated. If you had gotten a nice set of high quality coilovers, there's a big chance that they would be designed to lower the car without changing the suspension travel.

EDIT: Although that is quite difficult to find for your car.

So I have to echo M's question - what are you trying to address in the suspension? What goal do you have? Simply lowering a car does not mean it will always handle better. My friend's MR2 is a perfect example, it understeers like a pig in comparison to mine, or even a stock MR2.

The goal is better handling. I know there are plenty of other things that make a difference, but you start somewhere. Tires are probably the best place to start, but the tires can also just cover up the bad points to a car, instead of fixing them. The stock tires on wrx's aren't to shabby anyways.

To address the original question - go with Tien. More so if this is just a start and he will be upgrading again. Though honestly, I would just say get a thick rear sway bar and see what that does for the car and its handling. Will make a bigger impact than the shocks and springs, and will let you have that awesome Subaru suspension travel.

Looks and stiffness also plays a part in this choice, so stock struts aren't going to do the job. We aren't talking slamming the car here, but lowering an inch or so adds a nice touch.

And FYI - higher cost does not always make for better parts, just makes for a better known name.

I realize that, but you also get what you pay for, which is extremely true when it comes to cars. Usually the reason a brand is better known is because of it's quality, in both performance and overall build.

 

[///M-Spec]

I realize that, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to upgrade your car.

What he's ALLOWED to do isn't the question. Its his car, he can do as he pleases.

But you asked for opinions. And my opinion is that just because he CAN doesn't mean he SHOULD.

You are assuming the car needs a fancy adjustable coilover setup when in fact you may be able to reach your performance targets with much less time, effort and money. OR with the same amount of T/E/M, achieve greater results than you might expect.

Every aspect that makes the car go through a corner faster.

A lower center of gravity, adjustability, ability to take more abuse on a track, looks, and overall performance are all reasons.

NOW we're getting somewhere. He needs to start with tires. The tire is your foundation. There is not a single mod that will have a bigger impact on mechanical grip than the tires.

Does he still have the OE Bridgestones on the car?

As for the suspension, I need to post a disclaimer: I am not a WRX suspension expert. To talk to the real experts, you will need to head to NASIOC forums.

BUT I will tell you some things that are universal on street cars with strut type suspensions (like the WRX and almost all BMWs as well):

First, you need to get out of the mindset that just because the car is lower doesn't mean it will handle better. The WRX is a street car and like all street cars have their suspension geometry designed for a certain ride height.

Lowering the car an inch or less may improve the handling very slightly. If the lowering springs are higher rate (I hope they are), you may notice less body roll, which may lead you to THINK the car is cornering faster or steering more precisely. Fact is, the car can't corner any faster than what the tires will allow based on the factory geometry/alignment.

Lowering it two inches or more may end up screwing it up because now you've messed up the camber curve AND lowered your roll center below the car's CG; you MAY ACTUALLY LOSE GRIP faster than stock on the outside front tire because the front camber is no longer optimal PLUS you end up with more body roll despite increased spring rates.

Do your friend a favor. Tell him to start simple.

1. Tires/wheels. Increase mechanical grip at expense of tire wear and all-season ability.
2. Then sway bars. Control unwanted body roll with only a slight ride quality reduction.
3. Then a set of camber bolts or plates and a GOOD autocross/street alignment. (increase static camber for better understeer resistance at expense of tire wear and straight line stability)

If after these simple and effective changes he still feels like he needs to change something, DON'T DISCOUNT a simple spring/strut upgrade.

If he ABSOLUTELY feels the need to get a set of 32 level adjustable yadda yaddas, just so he can stand in a parking lot and say "yeah, they're 32 way adjustable coilovers", then knock yourselves out.

What is wrong with a stock suspension on a race car? Take the same problems as the race car would have, and just make them less extreme, and you have an answer.

You don't really know, do you?

What he is trying to do is get better handling. That mainly depends on the settings, but you need to be able to change them first. Like I said before, it basically runs down to which damper will have better valving. Bad valving won't be good no matter what your settings are, so that's why I think a company that spends more time working with those types of cars will know better what works best.

It doesn't mainly depend on the "settings". Just because you have choices doesn't mean you're gonna pick the right ones. It depends on what aspect of the suspension you change to get an improvement without compromising other aspects. The lowered ride height I was just talking about is a good example of this.

Adjustable ride height or dampening is nice and all, but what about correcting the basic problem of a poor front camber curve or crappy tires?


M

 

[KSaiyu]

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Subaru Impreza WRX, and we were having a debate on what suspension would be better to get.

He want bilstein because of their race proven parts, so he's saying getting a part from a company that spends millions of dollars on research is the best way to go, because you know that buying something from them means getting a part made at the level race cars are built at.

I'm saying something like Tein or another Japanese company is the best way to go because both parts from both companies are capable of withstanding anything the car can do, so quality isn't an issue, so it's better to go with the company that actually spends time designing a part specifically for that car that will work good on the streets, instead of just relying on the companies reputation alone. A high quality Japanese company usually tunes these types of cars and would know more about what works best for them IMO, than a company that just has a really high reputation in the racing world.

Also, the foreign companies mostly tune other types of cars instead of just focusing on a couple Japanese cars.


To sum it up, Bilstein = Extremely high quality/race proven, against, Tein or similar company = Still high quality/parts proven on the specific car itself.


What do you guys think?


EDIT: Please no "Neither, get (other suspension brand) instead" type of posts.

Honestly, you're both right and I'd listen to both arguments when choosing any modification, whether suspension, engine whatever - the fact is though this changes from car to car and driver to driver (as in the final choice).

My advice seeing as I have no experience in Scoobys is to check out these forums for opinions or anywhere else that specializes in the car

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/forum.php

or

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/index.php

 

[Keef]

Do your friend a favor. Tell him to start simple.

1. Tires/wheels. Increase mechanical grip at expense of tire wear and all-season ability.
2. Then sway bars. Control unwanted body roll with only a slight ride quality reduction.
3. Then a set of camber bolts or plates and a GOOD autocross/street alignment. (increase static camber for better understeer resistance at expense of tire wear and straight line stability)

M

When I read this it reminded me of an article in the June 2007 issue of Car and Driver. It's a new series called Demon Tweaks, in which they modify a car only slightly to better suit their hard-driving tastes. This article featured a Subaru Forester 2.5XT Limited.

C&D made three modifications to the car. First, knowing that the tires are the most important handling mod you can make, they put some hi-po rubber on. They chose Toyo Proxes T1R tires, 225/55-16, to replace the crappy Yoko Geolander G900 all-seasons in 215/60-16. The lateral grip attained went up by 7-tenths of a g-force, from .74 to .81. You would feel an astonishing difference in the car with a change that big. Stopping distance at 70 mph was reduced by 12 feet, from 172 to 160.

The other modification they made, quite interestingly, follows M's logic (because it's right) perfectly. They didn't lower the car. They just installed much stiffer anti-roll bars, front and rear, from COBB Tuning.

First they did some tests though. They found that even with the new tires the front end still ultimately ended up understeering in corners. They played with tire pressures to no avail. They even disconnected the stock front sway bar, because a suspension with high roll-stiffness reaches it's grip limits sooner (it's the same reason drifters have very high rear roll-stiffness) and should make the rear rotate more than the front. But no.

The COBB sway bars are about twice as stiff as the stock units and the rear was adjustable. After some more experimentation they put the rear on its stiffest setting and achieved a neutral balance. They had such precise control that they could make the car hold a line through a corner perfectly or drift the rear end if they felt like it. Body roll under cornering load was greatly reduced and grip increased by a modest .1g to .82, but highway ride quality was barely effected.

The point of this article is that you can achieve great results with little money--these two mods cost only $1045--and time, without sacrificing the comfort of the suspension. Their alignment was not effected either, but that's where M-Spec's next tip comes into play.

In the pictures of the Forester turning, you can see how the new tires still roll quite a bit, and the contact patch of the tire has moved so its not all touching the ground anymore. That's elementary. It appears that a degree or two of negative camber may relieve this problem. I now personally know how camber can increase a tire's grip because my Sol's front suspension gained nearly 1.5 degrees of negative camber over stock. My tires haven't gotten any better, but the new alignment allows them to do their job better. The extra grip is quite surprising. The problems I will face, however, are that the inside edges of my front tires will wear much quicker than usual, and my car now wanders slightly at speeds above 90 mph. I'm thinking a couple tenths of a degree of toe-in may increase my grip slightly and make the car more stable at high speed.

EDIT: I just realized I'm being totally hypocritical when agreeing with this advice, since the first thing I did to my car was lower it nearly 2 inches. But the car already has adequate front and rear anti-roll bars, and the problems I wanted to fix were fixed. I'm doing it a little backwards because my last modification will be tires. But now I know what I need from a particular tire to reach my handling goal, and hopefully that'll make my decision easier.

 

[///M-Spec]

^^^

Thanks Keef. I remember that article, but wasn't even thinking about it when I wrote my previous post. Thanks for bringing it up; it does support my methodology of basic, smaller upgrades leading up to more comprehensive ones. Plus it has a nice bonus of putting real world results from a reliable source. +rep 👍


M

 

[Perfect Balance]

But you asked for opinions. And my opinion is that just because he CAN doesn't mean he SHOULD.

That is true, but I asked for your opinion on which of the 2 choices were better. The goal is better handling, and regardless of settings, what do you think would be the better choice of the two.

He needs to start with tires. The tire is your foundation. There is not a single mod that will have a bigger impact on mechanical grip than the tires.

As I said before, the tires will hide a car's bad points, not fix them. IMO it's better to start out with tires that don't grip so well, and then upgrade once the car does what you want.

Does he still have the OE Bridgestones on the car?

I have no idea.

just because the car is lower doesn't mean it will handle better.

I realize that.

Fact is, the car can't corner any faster than what the tires will allow based on the factory geometry/alignment.

That's true, although the right settings may just make better use of the grip the tires have to offer. ( I know the car can't corner faster than what the tires allow, but I'm not understanding the rest of the sentence.)

If he ABSOLUTELY feels the need to get a set of 32 level adjustable yadda yaddas, just so he can stand in a parking lot and say "yeah, they're 32 way adjustable coilovers", then knock yourselves out.

He doesn't, that was my suggestion, and they don't have to be that adjustable, at all even. Just the ride height and camber would be enough to experiment with.

You don't really know, do you?

I do know. I didn't feel like writing them all out because this doesn't have much to do with my original question, and you sound knowledgeable enough to know for yourself.

It doesn't mainly depend on the "settings".

I disagree. It doesn't matter what kind of suspension you have, if it isn't set up right, it may make the car handle even worse.

 

[Azuremen]

I strongly disagree that adjustability is over rated. If you had gotten a nice set of high quality coilovers, there's a big chance that they would be designed to lower the car without changing the suspension travel.

How the hell do you lower a car and keep the suspension travel the same? If you have a lower ride height, it means you have a shorter spring. Under compression, that spring will eventually sit on its coils, and you max out the suspension. Maybe I am really just missing something on how the suspension works?

And saying you want to address the bad points in regard to the cars handling... that sounds quite vague. In order to fix something, you need to know what it is. Does it understeer excessively, oversteer, or what?

I'm with Keef and M-spec still. Get tires first and then fiddle with the alignment. It would be quite comical for my 99 Corolla to go blasting past him on some twisties just because I have crazy ass tires on it (which I do from time to time).

What you are really getting by just lowering the car and putting some stiffer struts on is looks. You might increase grip by a couple of hundredths of a g, where as getting some Azenis would net like 2 tenths or something crazy. Brand wise, you already heard what I think.

 

[///M-Spec]

That is true, but I asked for your opinion on which of the 2 choices were better. The goal is better handling, and regardless of settings, what do you think would be the better choice of the two.

If the goal was to drive a nail into a piece of wood and you listed repeated blows with a) your forehead or b) a fuzzy Shamu doll as two possible options and asked me to pick the "best" one, I will still choose option c) a hammer. What can I say? I'm just not a very helpful person.

As I said before, the tires will hide a car's bad points, not fix them.

Sorry to be blunt, but I think that's pure nonsense. I don't know who told you that or where you learned it from, but its just plain wrong.

If anything, stickier tires will reveal "bad points" in a street car's suspension, not hide it --but only if the additional grip takes the suspension out of the original design limits.

But a WRX isn't a swing axle Triumph. It has a competently designed, modern suspension that will benefit fully from a Max Performance street tire up to an including R-comps.

You want increased cornering or braking performance? A sticky tire is the most effective and straightforward way to do it.

There is not a single nationally competitive autocrosser anywhere who is running a car on the OE tires. Even the faster STREET TIRE CLASS guys ditch the OE rubber and go with something stickier (like the Falken Azenis) at some point. And if you've been to a single autocross, you already know the fastest guys there were on Hoosiers or Kumhos, not the crappy $35 Sears brand.

If you are worried about "bad points" being hidden or masked by something else, the first place to look is in the driver's seat. Aren't you worried that a perfectly set up car will hide the driver's "bad points"?

IMO it's better to start out with tires that don't grip so well, and then upgrade once the car does what you want.

I agree with this but not for the same reason. If you are just learning to drive, it's better to start out with ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT tires because the car will respond and behave in a fairly predictable, safe manner as the manufacturer intended.

R-comps increase cornering limits so if/when you DO make a mistake you are going much faster and will have less time to make a correction.

For the same reason, if you're just learning to drive, you should avoid messing with the suspension (something I've been saying since page 1 of this thread)

That's true, although the right settings may just make better use of the grip the tires have to offer. ( I know the car can't corner faster than what the tires allow, but I'm not understanding the rest of the sentence.)

You're assuming something. Namely that playing with the ride height and/or dampener settings will have MORE substantial, measurable impact on performance...

..than the tires + swaybars + camber plates + alignment I have been a proponent of.

I doubt this.

He doesn't, that was my suggestion, and they don't have to be that adjustable, at all even. Just the ride height and camber would be enough to experiment with.

You don't need to experiment. You need to talk to people who have already been there and done that.

I took the liberty of searching through NASIOC for their wisdom. This thread took barely 10 minutes to find.

Read this:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680651

Here is an excerpt:

<INTRO SNIPPED FOR LENGTH>

2004 STX champ Tom Hoppe talks about beating people with more expensive setups

1. Tires. Your tires are the only part of your car that touches the road. If you can afford to run two sets of tires, or if you live in warm weather all year long, run a good set of summer tires. Be warned that with good, stiff-sidewall tires comes road noise and decreased ride quality. If you buy a bunch of suspension mods, an expensive set of coilovers, etc, and then buy mushy all season tires or some "tuner" tire that doesn't have particularly good sidewalls, you are probably wasting the money you spent on suspension parts. You can do this without TOUCHING your suspension or voiding your warranty or anything like that.

2. An alignment. You want to research this first, but if you are not buying camber bolts or plates, try to go with as much negative camber as you can evenly get in the front, and as little as you can get in the rear (again, GENERAL rules).

You can control a lot of understeer/oversteer balance this way. A lot of people who install shiny new coilovers who say "holy crap my car handles great now" might actually be raving about the alignment moreso than the coilovers. A properly set-up strut/spring combo, with camber plates and an aggressive alignment, can be an effective weapon. Only fiddle with toe if you know what you're doing.

Most importantly - alignments are CHEAP! The most expensive alignment I've ever seen was $200, which is a lot, but still cheaper than just about any other suspension mod you can do. The flipside: if you are going to try to make your car handle better, you are fighting gravity unless you go with a matching alignment. You don't want to be driving on the sidewalls of your front tires under load. That = understeer city and horrible noises.

2a. Camber bolts, for the same reason as an alignment. They're cheap.

3. Swaybars. Pick some that are appropriately sized for your application. As Jim/ITWRX4ME points out, make sure you know what lift throttle oversteer is, how to cause it, and more importantly how NOT to cause it before you start dabbling.

4. Once we get here, you may be ready to swap out your stock struts and springs.

<LOTS OF GOOD ADVICE SNIPPED FOR LENGTH>

Hmm. STX class champ. (I presume that's NATIONAL champ) Think his advice might be worth listening to?

Also see this post:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1242315

Excerpt:

First - if you have to ask, you probably don't need coilovers. This is the Rule of Biggly (tm).

<MORE GOOD ADVICE SNIPPED FOR LENGTH>

Don't jump on the coilover bandwagon just to say you have coilovers. You can have a car with excellent handling without coilovers - camber plates, a good spring/strut combo, a good alignment and some swaybars is a good way to do this.

I do know. I didn't feel like writing them all out because this doesn't have much to do with my original question, and you sound knowledgeable enough to know for yourself.

Actually, I don't. I wouldn't know the first thing about setting up a WRX race car. I understand basic suspension theory and concepts. I've driven both versions of the street car. I've talked to and competed against other WRX owners and listened to their thoughts on the car. This doesn't make me remotely qualified to set up a race car.

But if you're an expert on this, please feel free to enlighten us.

I disagree. It doesn't matter what kind of suspension you have, if it isn't set up right, it may make the car handle even worse.

Good point! I'm glad I already said that in the portion of my post you DIDN'T bother to quote.

Here's the whole thing:

It doesn't mainly depend on the "settings". Just because you have choices doesn't mean you're gonna pick the right ones. It depends on what aspect of the suspension you change to get an improvement without compromising other aspects. The lowered ride height I was just talking about is a good example of this.

You know, it'd be nice if you would at least acknowledge some of points I've been making, instead of going through my posts and cherry-picking the lines you want to disagree with and ignoring anything else I have to say.


M

 

[Perfect Balance]

How the hell do you lower a car and keep the suspension travel the same? If you have a lower ride height, it means you have a shorter spring. Under compression, that spring will eventually sit on its coils, and you max out the suspension. Maybe I am really just missing something on how the suspension works?

And saying you want to address the bad points in regard to the cars handling... that sounds quite vague. In order to fix something, you need to know what it is. Does it understeer excessively, oversteer, or what?

I'm with Keef and M-spec still. Get tires first and then fiddle with the alignment. It would be quite comical for my 99 Corolla to go blasting past him on some twisties just because I have crazy ass tires on it (which I do from time to time).

What you are really getting by just lowering the car and putting some stiffer struts on is looks. You might increase grip by a couple of hundredths of a g, where as getting some Azenis would net like 2 tenths or something crazy. Brand wise, you already heard what I think.

A lot of coilovers have the ride height adjustments separate from the preload, which lets you lower the car without compromising travel.

The first step to fixing the problem is getting the right tools to fix it with. A stock suspension isn't adjustable. No matter what you need to do to fix the problem, it needs to be "fixable" in the first place.

I don't know how the car drives, I've never driven a WRX myself, so I can't say.


And for the 3rd time, tires cover up the car's problems, not fix them. If you can dial in a car's suspension right, and then get better tires, the difference will be a lot more drastic than getting tires first and then setting up the suspension.

 

[Perfect Balance]

If the goal was to drive a nail into a piece of wood and you listed repeated blows with a) your forehead or b) a fuzzy Shamu doll as two possible options and asked me to pick the "best" one, I will still choose option c) a hammer. What can I say? I'm just not a very helpful person.

If I had said, a) cutting the springs or b) taking them off, your comparison would be a perfect example. I didn't list anything completely stupid and insane.

Sorry to be blunt, but I think that's pure nonsense. I don't know who told you that or where you learned it from, but its just plain wrong.

If anything, stickier tires will reveal "bad points" in a street car's suspension, not hide it --but only if the additional grip takes the suspension out of the original design limits.

It isn't just plain wrong. If you have a car that understeers at 30mph, and then you slap some racing tires on there, go around the same turn at 50mph, full throttle, without understeer, don't you think they covered the problem up a bit?

But a WRX isn't a swing axle Triumph. It has a competently designed, modern suspension that will benefit fully from a Max Performance street tire up to an including R-comps.

You want increased cornering or braking performance? A sticky tire is the most effective and straightforward way to do it.

It is the most effective way, but what about response and stability? Stiffer springs and dampers will make the car more responsive and stable at speed. This also gives the driver more confidence. I know too stiff will do the opposite, but that's something that a company takes into account when designing a suspension for the street.

There is not a single nationally competitive autocrosser anywhere who is running a car on the OE tires. Even the faster STREET TIRE CLASS guys ditch the OE rubber and go with something stickier (like the Falken Azenis) at some point. And if you've been to a single autocross, you already know the fastest guys there were on Hoosiers or Kumhos, not the crappy $35 Sears brand.

Autocross isn't exactly the best place to look for advice. Another one of my friends went there with a stock car and some cheap tires, and beat a lot of other people with cars running racing tires. A lot of people there use the tires to make up for their lack or driving skill.

If you are worried about "bad points" being hidden or masked by something else, the first place to look is in the driver's seat. Aren't you worried that a perfectly set up car will hide the driver's "bad points"?

Frankly, I think a bad car masked by great tires is worse than a bad driver masked by a great car. A bad driver can learn to drive, but tires will never make a better car.

I agree with this but not for the same reason. If you are just learning to drive, it's better to start out with ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT tires because the car will respond and behave in a fairly predictable, safe manner as the manufacturer intended.

R-comps increase cornering limits so if/when you DO make a mistake you are going much faster and will have less time to make a correction.

For the same reason, if you're just learning to drive, you should avoid messing with the suspension (something I've been saying since page 1 of this thread)

That is also a good reason.👍

You're assuming something. Namely that playing with the ride height and/or dampener settings will have MORE substantial, measurable impact on performance...

..than the tires + swaybars + camber plates + alignment I have been a proponent of.

I doubt this.

I ignored tires for my pevious reasons, camber plates aren't needed when you buy camber adjustable coilovers, except maybe in the rear depending on the car, and the alignment can still be adjusted with aftermarket suspension. Swaybars are also a great upgrade, but there's no reason why you can't get coilovers first.

You don't need to experiment. You need to talk to people who have already been there and done that.

Some people like different things. Going faster through a corner is the main goal, but how the driver wants the car to drive also plays a big role in it. Some people like their cars to understeer, some people like theirs to oversteer.

I took the liberty of searching through NASIOC for their wisdom. This thread took barely 10 minutes to find.

Read this:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=680651

Here is an excerpt:



Hmm. STX class champ. (I presume that's NATIONAL champ) Think his advice might be worth listening to?

Also see this post:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1242315

Excerpt:

Great link, although I noticed he is telling you the best "bang for your buck" way to get better handling. Money is not a problem this time around.

Actually, I don't. I wouldn't know the first thing about setting up a WRX race car. I understand basic suspension theory and concepts. I've driven both versions of the street car. I've talked to and competed against other WRX owners and listened to their thoughts on the car. This doesn't make me remotely qualified to set up a race car.

But if you're an expert on this, please feel free to enlighten us.

I didn't specifically mean a WRX race car, just a race car in general. The stock suspension isn't adjustable, it can't take the abuse a racing enviorment would put it through, it won't make full use of the tires' grip, it isn't as stable, it isn't as responsive, and it isn't as strong. If it was they wouldn't bother changing them.

Good point! I'm glad I already said that in the portion of my post you DIDN'T bother to quote.

Here's the whole thing:

That's the reason I kept mentioning that it depends mainly on settings, because, obviously, if they sucked, the suspension wouldn't do much would it?

I might as well quote my post and say "I already said that"

You know, it'd be nice if you would at least acknowledge some of points I've been making, instead of going through my posts and cherry-picking the lines you want to disagree with and ignoring anything else I have to say.


M

This time I left everything in. As for the other posts, if I didn't say anything, I agreed with what you had to say.


Sorry for the double post, it would have been difficult to edit this all in.

 

[Keef]

The first step to fixing the problem is getting the right tools to fix it with. A stock suspension isn't adjustable. No matter what you need to do to fix the problem, it needs to be "fixable" in the first place.

Coilovers aren't going to allow you to adjust your alignment. For instance, my Del Sol has no camber adjustment whatsoever, no matter what suspension kit I put on it. However, I can gain that adjustability with special upper control arms. I could go from 0 to +/-4 degrees of adjustment! These control arms are certainly not part of a coilover, which is simply a spring with height/tension adjustment. For my rear suspension I could get either adjustable lower or upper control arms to adjust camber.

In fact, the only adjustable alignment angle on my front and rear double-wishbone suspension design is toe. I know this because I've had it aligned before. The reason I have more camber on both ends now after the car is lowered is because my suspension geometry gains camber when compressed, and the front gains quickly.

But not all suspensions are double-wishbone designs. Multi-links have arms and links spider-webbing all over, and some are as simple as a strut bolted between the inner fender well and a lower control arm, with one arm to keep it stable. Some have solid axles with no adjustment at all, and some allow you to not only adjust camber and toe, but also caster and certain angles related to the steering system.

But the WRX has front struts and a multilink setup in back. I believe you may be able to adjust toe in front and camber and toe in the rear. If not, parts are offered that allow you to adjust camber. My point is that coilovers will allow you to adjust everything except what needs adjusted. You need to adjust what needs to be adjusted--the alignment--before you should adjust everything else.

EDIT: And remember that the rear suspension on that WRX will gain camber as it compresses. You may find that that leads to more rear grip or even less grip, but it should make the rear more unstable at high speeds.