Suspension question

[Perfect Balance]

Coilovers aren't going to allow you to adjust your alignment. For instance, my Del Sol has no camber adjustment whatsoever, no matter what suspension kit I put on it.

You don't have coilovers. You have a strut/spring combo. A lot of coilovers have camber adjustments on the pillowball mounts, although that's only on the front most of the time.

 

[Keef]

It isn't just plain wrong. If you have a car that understeers at 30mph, and then you slap some racing tires on there, go around the same turn at 50mph, full throttle, without understeer, don't you think they covered the problem up a bit?

No, the tires have not covered up a problem. They've fixed the problem. The problem was crappy tires. Obviously the suspension is capable enough to go through that corner at 50 mph because it did. Now that you've found the limit of the stock suspension's capabilities you can improve those capabilities with new suspension parts.

It is the most effective way, but what about response and stability? Stiffer springs and dampers will make the car more responsive and stable at speed. This also gives the driver more confidence. I know too stiff will do the opposite, but that's something that a company takes into account when designing a suspension for the street.

Stiffer springs do make the car respond quicker to steering inputs and inputs from bumps on the road, etc. Stiffer springs don't necessarily make a car more stable at speed. Bump steer becomes more prevalent with hard springs, believe me.

But high-performance summer tires also improve response. High-performance summer tires have very stiff sidewalls that resist flexing. You'd be amazed at the difference stiff--not necessarily lower profile--sidewalls make in the steering response of a car. Try comparing sets of tires back-to-back one time. It's nuts, really.

Frankly, I think a bad car masked by great tires is worse than a bad driver masked by a great car. A bad driver can learn to drive, but tires will never make a better car.

A bad driver in a great car? That's trouble. Makes me imagine an Enzo laying in pieces on the highway. It has stiff springs for stability and even downforce, making those springs even stiffer at speed. How could anything go wrong?

It seems obvious to me that if you improve a crappy car's performance with good tires, you have indeed made a crappy car better. I apologize ahead of time for any smartassery in that comment.

Some people like different things. Going faster through a corner is the main goal, but how the driver wants the car to drive also plays a big role in it. Some people like their cars to understeer, some people like theirs to oversteer.

And some people know that cars usually hold speed through a corner with minimal slippage from the tires. That's why they utilize downforce. That's also why race car drivers work that steering wheel like there's no tomorrow while they're going "straight".


EDIT: So I really did just call the expert. Turns out I wrote a thing up there that was completely wrong. I deleted it, and I feel like an idiot for making that up. Hopefully nobody saw it...

Anyway, I learned that camber-adjustable coilover kits do work, and that's what my bad section concerned. I got the strut suspension, for which the kits do work, confused with my double-wishbone, for which the kits do not work. Also, I learned that those front struts on the WRX have no stock camber adjustment. The rear multi-link may have camber adjustment, but it may not. Setups are different.

 

[Perfect Balance]

No, the tires have not covered up a problem. They've fixed the problem. The problem was crappy tires. Obviously the suspension is capable enough to go through that corner at 50 mph because it did. Now that you've found the limit of the stock suspension's capabilities you can improve those capabilities with new suspension parts.

I don't consider that fixing. That's like putting a band-aid on a cut and saying it's healed. It's not fixed, it's covered up.

Stiffer springs do make the car respond quicker to steering inputs and inputs from bumps on the road, etc. Stiffer springs don't necessarily make a car more stable at speed. Bump steer becomes more prevalent with hard springs, believe me.

Stiffer springs by themselves won't make a car more stable at speed, but paired with a nice set of dampers, it should make it more stable. I know that too much will make the car more twitchy, especially over bumps, but as long as you don't go overboard, it should help.

But high-performance summer tires also improve response. High-performance summer tires have very stiff sidewalls that resist flexing. You'd be amazed at the difference stiff--not necessarily lower profile--sidewalls make in the steering response of a car. Try comparing sets of tires back-to-back one time. It's nuts, really.

I know, I know, but because of my opinions with tires, I'd rather not.

A bad driver in a great car? That's trouble. Makes me imagine an Enzo laying in pieces on the highway. It has stiff springs for stability and even downforce, making those springs even stiffer at speed. How could anything go wrong?

A really bad driver is bad, but a person who knows their limits and the basics of performance driving is enough to get started.

It seems obvious to me that if you improve a crappy car's performance with good tires, you have indeed made a crappy car better. I apologize ahead of time for any smartassery in that comment.

Think of it this way. It's like nitrous. I'd rather have my car faster in all conditions than just when I press a button. Same as the handling speed. I'd rather have the car handle better all the time than just when I have some nice tires.

And some people know that cars usually hold speed through a corner with minimal slippage from the tires. That's why they utilize downforce. That's also why race car drivers work that steering wheel like there's no tomorrow while they're going "straight".

A stock wrx (wagon, I should add) Doesn't have much downforce to work with.



Whatever, I'm tired of this.

 

[Keef]

I don't consider that fixing. That's like putting a band-aid on a cut and saying it's healed. It's not fixed, it's covered up.

So you want the car to handle as best it can on stock tires? Okay. Spend $1,000 on shocks, springs, and anti-roll bars. What you'll find is that the car has no more grip than it did before all those upgrades. Tires can contain so much force (they don't make force, they actually hold onto the force) before they give way to understeer, oversteer, or a mix of the two. Since you now have a very stiff and lower suspension you're transferring more weight more quickly to the outside wheels, and that will result in more understeer that occurs sooner. I know this because I've done it.

The only way to make stock tires grip noticeably better is to change the alignment.

Stiffer springs by themselves won't make a car more stable at speed, but paired with a nice set of dampers, it should make it more stable. I know that too much will make the car more twitchy, especially over bumps, but as long as you don't go overboard, it should help.

Changing a car's suspension geometry will most likely not make the steering system work better. A car is designed to be where it is, stock. Companies don't anticipate the car to be lower than it is. Therefore, they tune it to be best where it is stock.

I know, I know, but because of my opinions with tires, I'd rather not.

What opinions do you have of tires?

Think of it this way. It's like nitrous. I'd rather have my car faster in all conditions than just when I press a button. Same as the handling speed. I'd rather have the car handle better all the time than just when I have some nice tires.

Well then keep the performance tires on all the time. We're not talking about slicks here; we're talking about street tires.

A stock wrx (wagon, I should add) Doesn't have much downforce to work with.

My point was that race cars are about as unstable as the Tacoma Narrows bridge when compared to a modern road car.

 

[Azuremen]

I don't think he is getting how much a difference stiffer sidewalls make on a tire. You can have a super nice, solid suspension, a bit stiffer... but now your tires are rolling on their sidewalls.

@PB - From what it looks like here, you have 3 people, that have done some competitive motorsports stuff from the looks of it, all giving similar advice. Yet you continue to disregard it, claim you know better, etc. I've seen guys with nice suspensions trying to race and drift on less than great tires. Then the okay driver with stock suspension blows by them because of decent sports tires.

OEM tires are a joke, period. My MR2 isn't much quicker around corners than my friends stock MR2 is when they are on similar tires. I have a "decent" setup for suspension, with a decent alignment for street/race use. Just switching between Falken Ziex and Azenis on my MR2 makes a world of difference in turn in, road feel, response, braking, corner and even how progressively the tires break away at the limit. The tires don't hide faults, they up everything.

I was not going to post in here again, but just watching you ask something and then shooting down everyone's answers and advice is infuriating and insulting to them. I hate to say this, but you acting like a walking stereo type of the 16 year old car guy that claims he knows everything there is to know. We are just giving you our advice, gleaned from experience and observation. We aren't trying to say you are wrong, we are just trying to make sure you understand what does what, and the importance of this or that.

So, do what ya wanna do. I'll just smile when I blast by some lowered WRX on an off ramp.

 

[Perfect Balance]

EDIT: Screw it.


Lets try this again.

Lets say someone had a set of bilstein shocks with some type of high quality springs in one hand and a set of Tein coilovers in the other. They both fit your car, and they both are completely FREE. Which set would you choose and why?

EDIT: This is for YOU, not for a WRX this time around, so base your opinion on what you like to do with your car.

If you don't tune your car or don't want to, just pretend you were.

 

[Hugo Boss]

Enough, guys. You are both right/wrong.

Perfect Balance, you're the one that started the thread. Don't you think you act a bit too stubborn for someone that's asking for advice/opinions from others? Just my observation...

I do agree with you though that hp tyres don't solve the poor handling of a car. The tyres have less influence on the balance of the car than the suspension part. But when talking about sheer grip, the tyres have the upper hand. That also means a higher cornering speed.

Let's all be a bit less stubborn and try to see things also from another view, instead of only from your own point of view.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Perfect Balance, you're the one that started the thread. Don't you think you act a bit too stubborn for someone that's asking for advice/opinions from others? Just my observation...

No, I don't.

I asked which one of the 2 would be a better choice in your opinion. I didn't ask for what else I could get. I didn't ask whether tires would be a better choice. In fact, I specifically said I didn't want the type of answer that suggested something besides the 2 already listed. Apparently some people don't know how to read.

 

[G.Boss]

Hey, I was the friend PB was talking with. I haven't had time to read everything but I did notice a few things which I'd like to address. The thread isn't about me tuning my WRX just for the sake of it. (How fast you guys change the main point lol) We were just talking about our cars and it flowed into a discussion on the aforementioned companies and the thought process behind picking one over the other, which is what this thread was meant for. I do however appreciate all the tuning help. I don't plan on tuning anything on my car except saving for new tires, because the previous owner put some 'cobra' tire on it which has no grip.
Another point, pb mentioned my dad and then someone replied that some people think they drive better than they do. All I ask is that don't be so definative in what you say without knowing what your're talking about. My dad lived in Russia before, St. Petersburg and he was a rally driver there. Every single event he entered, most of them snow, he won. Not second, not third, flat out won. I'm not saying he's like Colin Mcrae, but he's definately not someone who thinks he's good when he isn't. And in case you think Russians might be bad drivers so there was no competition, when he came to America in the late 90's, he entered a few autocross events and podiumed in all of them, even won some.
Now, with regards to my WRX, I love it as it is and have only been working on fixing problems caused by the previous owner lately. Me and my dad fixed a problem with the turbo, fixed the fog lights, fized some electrical problems, balanced the wheels, and did a wheel alignment. (My dad has a company where he buys cars for people at auctions and usually ships them to Europe/Russia/Middle East, and he's a mechanic so we did this all ourselves.)
So for now, I just want to get some tires and learn to drive well with stick-shift.

 

[///M-Spec]

Re: Just because it's not completely stupid and insane don't make it smart either

If I had said, a) cutting the springs or b) taking them off, your comparison would be a perfect example. I didn't list anything completely stupid and insane.

The analogy was just a colorful exaggeration for the sake of illustration. No, putting coilovers on the car is not stupid. Nor is it insane. Nor am I trying to imply YOU are stupid or insane.

But it is over-kill and a waste of money at this point. That is my opinion. It is also Keef and Azuremen's opinion. But more and more I'm getting the impression you're not interested in learning anything because you think you already have all the answers and are just looking for someone to validate a conclusion you have already drawn --based on what experience, I have no idea.


Re: Tires

It isn't just plain wrong. If you have a car that understeers at 30mph, and then you slap some racing tires on there, go around the same turn at 50mph, full throttle, without understeer, don't you think they covered the problem up a bit?

It is the most effective way, but what about response and stability? Stiffer springs and dampers will make the car more responsive and stable at speed. This also gives the driver more confidence. I know too stiff will do the opposite, but that's something that a company takes into account when designing a suspension for the street.

.....

Frankly, I think a bad car masked by great tires is worse than a bad driver masked by a great car. A bad driver can learn to drive, but tires will never make a better car.

Let's remember something. You stated the goal was to improve the car's overall performance. Well, guess what? That's what tires do.

Look at your own example. THE CAR WITH THE RACE TIRES IS PERFORMING AT A FAR SUPERIOR LEVEL THAN THE CAR WITHOUT. If they both understeer at the limit, the tires have changed nothing about the car's handling except increase make it corner faster, stop in a shorter distance and accelerate quicker (if the acceleration is traction limited).

I'm amazed at how you are unwilling to see the forest for the trees here.

Yes, it would be nice if tires would magically cure terminal understeer. But if "going faster" is the goal, then by your own admission, tires are a good answer.

Re: Driver Skill and NASIOC advice

Autocross isn't exactly the best place to look for advice.

I find this sort of statement irritating to read. One reason is because you gloss over where the advice is coming from. It ain't coming from Joe Blow doing his first season. It ain't coming from some hotshoe who's got a fast car and sits in the Top 10 on a regular basis at his local chapter.

IT IS COMING A SCCA NATIONAL CHAMPION.

This is the guy. Look at his credentials. He's not some random chump, you know.

You want to raise doubts about the credibility of good information you get from the combined knowledge of thousands WRX owners and a top driver?

..and you haven't even driven one??? Do you realize how poorly that comes off? Here's what I see: someone who has never even driven the car is blowing off advice from owners who drive and compete and WIN with them? Sorry, but no one is buying that.

And yeah, you can get bad advice from someone at an autocross. Usually from the slow guys who have more car than talent and more money than sense.

But for Mr. Hoppe, I think the proof is in the pudding.

Another one of my friends went there with a stock car and some cheap tires, and beat a lot of other people with cars running racing tires. A lot of people there use the tires to make up for their lack or driving skill.

That doesn't mean anything. If your friend went head to head with a good driver in the same car with R-comps, he would have gotten beat. Pretty soundly. Driver skill and other random factors being equal, car prep is going to win the day.

I also want to point out an inconsistency with your argument here. You say driver skill should be what matters (I agree with this, which is why I have advocated he improve his skills since page 1 of this thread) as a reason NOT to upgrade the tires.

But at the same time you want to upgrade the suspension.

Now tell me why the same argument can't apply here? If you tweak the car's suspension so that it practically drives itself, doesn't that "hide" or "mask" or "cover up" poor skills??


Re: Adjustable Coilovers

I ignored tires for my pevious reasons, camber plates aren't needed when you buy camber adjustable coilovers, except maybe in the rear depending on the car, and the alignment can still be adjusted with aftermarket suspension. Swaybars are also a great upgrade, but there's no reason why you can't get coilovers first.

Camber plates are cheap. For a WRX, they run about $200. That's a fraction of the cost of a fancy coilover setup that includes camber changes.

You keep saying cost is no object, but I don't think that's very sensible. Cost is always an object.

Some people like different things. Going faster through a corner is the main goal, but how the driver wants the car to drive also plays a big role in it. Some people like their cars to understeer, some people like theirs to oversteer.

You stated the goal was to improve performance. This can be done independently of cornering balance.

Getting the car neutral is a fine goal. But you can still achieve that through much more cost-effective changes.

I didn't specifically mean a WRX race car, just a race car in general. The stock suspension isn't adjustable, it can't take the abuse a racing enviorment would put it through, it won't make full use of the tires' grip, it isn't as stable, it isn't as responsive, and it isn't as strong. If it was they wouldn't bother changing them.

That's the reason I kept mentioning that it depends mainly on settings, because, obviously, if they sucked, the suspension wouldn't do much would it?

You seem to be fixated on the notion that you HAVE TO have control over ride height, compression and rebound in order to improve suspension performance.

That's simply not the case.

The non-adjustable, plain-jane spring/strut kits can ALSO improve the car's handling. With these, the rates have already been chosen FOR YOU, but all that means is the "SETTINGS" have been chosen by professionals rather than the end-user.

If you know what you're doing, "adjustable" may give you some precious tenths. But for people who have no training and education in suspension mechanics, the only thing "adjustable" gives you then, is the opportunity to completely screw up the car's handling.


Re: Huh?

I might as well quote my post and say "I already said that"

You said you needed to be able to control "the settings" because that's what matters. My reply was that just because you have control over "the settings" doesn't mean you'll pick the right ones.

Again, unless you have the technical skills and education to set up the car, you're probably just going to end up wasting time and money.

However, all of this .. "entertaining" discussion is beside the point, given the post from your friend here....

Hey, I was the friend PB was talking with. I haven't had time to read everything but I did notice a few things which I'd like to address. The thread isn't about me tuning my WRX just for the sake of it. (How fast you guys change the main point lol) We were just talking about our cars and it flowed into a discussion on the aforementioned companies and the thought process behind picking one over the other, which is what this thread was meant for. I do however appreciate all the tuning help. I don't plan on tuning anything on my car except saving for new tires, because the previous owner put some 'cobra' tire on it which has no grip.
Another point, pb mentioned my dad and then someone replied that some people think they drive better than they do. All I ask is that don't be so definative in what you say without knowing what your're talking about. My dad lived in Russia before, St. Petersburg and he was a rally driver there. Every single event he entered, most of them snow, he won. Not second, not third, flat out won. I'm not saying he's like Colin Mcrae, but he's definately not someone who thinks he's good when he isn't. And in case you think Russians might be bad drivers so there was no competition, when he came to America in the late 90's, he entered a few autocross events and podiumed in all of them, even won some.
Now, with regards to my WRX, I love it as it is and have only been working on fixing problems caused by the previous owner lately. Me and my dad fixed a problem with the turbo, fixed the fog lights, fized some electrical problems, balanced the wheels, and did a wheel alignment. (My dad has a company where he buys cars for people at auctions and usually ships them to Europe/Russia/Middle East, and he's a mechanic so we did this all ourselves.)
So for now, I just want to get some tires and learn to drive well with stick-shift.

That remark wasn't aimed at your father. The context of the remark was from PerfectBalance's instance that you "know how to drive", and therefore didn't need any further training before you begin modifying your car. My reply to was to say that most people who think they already drive great and have nothing left to learn, well, don't.

But I'm glad to hear you've decided to swap out the crappy tires for better ones before doing anything else. 👍 Good luck with your car.


M

 

[Swift]

Why is it that people seem to want a "this" or "that" answer? Why is it wrong to think that another product or even a completely different solution could fix the current challenge.

The facts are the facts. Tires make the biggest difference in the cars handling. I know this from experience. They're the only part of the car touching the ground, how could they NOT be the most significant thing in the cars handling?

Putting a garbage set of tires on a WRX (like the stock tires) with an STI or even better suspension won't get as good of results as you would with the stock suspension and excellent tires.

But yeah, this is a rather interesting conversation.

 

[Perfect Balance]

The analogy was just a colorful exaggeration for the sake of illustration. No, putting coilovers on the car is not stupid. Nor is it insane. Nor am I trying to imply YOU are stupid or insane.

👍

But it is over-kill and a waste of money at this point. That is my opinion. It is also Keef and Azuremen's opinion. But more and more I'm getting the impression you're not interested in learning anything because you think you already have all the answers and are just looking for someone to validate a conclusion you have already drawn --based on what experience, I have no idea.

I am interested in learning something. In fact, the first 2 things I plan to do on my car when I get money is upgrade the wheels and tires, and get some sway bars. Not great tires, but normal tires. Being from Canada and straight after winter, my car still has snow tires on it. Not studded ones, but they do really suck.

Let's remember something. You stated the goal was to improve the car's overall performance. Well, guess what? That's what tires do.

Look at your own example. THE CAR WITH THE RACE TIRES IS PERFORMING AT A FAR SUPERIOR LEVEL THAN THE CAR WITHOUT. If they both understeer at the limit, the tires have changed nothing about the car's handling except increase make it corner faster, stop in a shorter distance and accelerate quicker (if the acceleration is traction limited).

I'm amazed at how you are unwilling to see the forest for the trees here.

Yes, it would be nice if tires would magically cure terminal understeer. But if "going faster" is the goal, then by your own admission, tires are a good answer.

If I'm looking at coilovers and wondering which coilover will give me the best result, tires aren't on the list.

The question was which suspension will give the best results, not just "What will have the best results?"
EDIT: Although I did say that earlier. I screwed up to say the least.

That extra word is what makes the difference between anything that affects handling, and only suspension units.

Maybe I could have been more clear earlier.

Racing tires do make a huge difference though.👍

I find this sort of statement irritating to read.

I wasn't referring to that particular person, just the majority of the people there. I know a lot of them really know their stuff, but that's one of the first forms of racing, some people do it just for fun without any knowledge about cars. The amount of reliable information you get there is small, at least where I live.

I also want to point out an inconsistency with your argument here. You say driver skill should be what matters (I agree with this, which is why I have advocated he improve his skills since page 1 of this thread) as a reason NOT to upgrade the tires.

But at the same time you want to upgrade the suspension.

Now tell me why the same argument can't apply here? If you tweak the car's suspension so that it practically drives itself, doesn't that "hide" or "mask" or "cover up" poor skills??

I think a car that reacts predictably and is easy to drive gives the driver a more confidence and room for error. It also makes it easier for the driver to catch his mistakes and keep from hitting a wall or something else.

You seem to be fixated on the notion that you HAVE TO have control over ride height, compression and rebound in order to improve suspension performance.

That's simply not the case.

The non-adjustable, plain-jane spring/strut kits can ALSO improve the car's handling. With these, the rates have already been chosen FOR YOU, but all that means is the "SETTINGS" have been chosen by professionals rather than the end-user.

If you know what you're doing, "adjustable" may give you some precious tenths. But for people who have no training and education in suspension mechanics, the only thing "adjustable" gives you then, is the opportunity to completely screw up the car's handling.

A suspension does not need to be adjustable. I just think it's better to have that option so you can adjust it when you learn about it or someone that does gives you some advice.


(The things that weren't quoted, I either had nothing to say or I agreed with you.)

 

[G.Boss]

Well, thanks M-Spec. I got the liscense plates (registered) and insurance card and eveything today so I can now officially drive my WRX, w00t. I'm so happy. Im excited for the fact that as I've been driving, I've always been progressing so knowing that even though I'm just starting to drive stick shift daily but am already smoother than kids at my school makes me excited at the thought of how good I can become with daily practice, and eventually autocross practice.

 

[harrytuttle]

Step 1: Identify things you want to change
Step 2: Determine what your budget is
Step 3: Research the which parts are best suited to making the change without impacting characteristics you want to retain and while staying within your budget

I strongly second this, with the added information. I own a 2005 STI, and I have owned Subarus in years past (all the way back to 1992 or so). I am quite familiar with the STI and how it behaves on both good and poor road surfaces, in good and bad weather. I am also familiar with how susceptible it is to minor suspension changes, including tire choices. Basically, it feels great on factory settings, if a bit harsh, and "wrong" on anything else (including those pesky tires I mentioned). I strongly reccommend setting a discrete goal, then making small changes towards that goal, and determine whether that change makes positive progress or not. Changing suspension parts is a big change, and will likely confuse the situation given that you want a street car, not a rally car. The factory suspension components on an STI are quite robust, and will hold up to quite a bit of abuse (as will the drivetrain, thankfully). This is why I reccomended staying [mostly] stock.


But given that you've presented us with an either/or decision, I suggest Tein. They've done quite a few street-designed Imprezas over the years, whereas Bilstein has mostly done off-road/WRC work with Subaru. The decision is as simple as that.

 

[Perfect Balance]

But given that you've presented us with an either/or decision, I suggest Tein. They've done quite a few street-designed Imprezas over the years, whereas Bilstein has mostly done off-road/WRC work with Subaru. The decision is as simple as that.

Finally someone gave me the type of answer I wanted. Thank you, and that was also my reasoning for saying Tein.

 

[skip0110]

Tien has good packages, but Cobb also makes good Subaru parts.

I have not heard of many Impreza owners using Bilstein parts.

So, I agree with Perfect Balance and harry.

 

[Race Idiot]

Tien has good packages, but Cobb also makes good Subaru parts.

I have not heard of many Impreza owners using Bilstein parts.

So, I agree with Perfect Balance and harry.

Blistein make oem parts for some subarus, so I wouldn't say they are inferior.

 

[harrytuttle]

Blistein make oem parts for some subarus, so I wouldn't say they are inferior.

It's not so much what's inferior, it's what a better fit for the car. For example, I know that the PZero Nero tires are great on a lot of other Japanese cars, but firsthand experience proves that they are far from perfect on the STi. It's the right product, set up the right way, for the right application that gives the best results.