SUV's are obsolete

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What does that prove? Bigger vehicles typically win in an accident. If the Neon hit the Tahoe in the same spot it would do damage but not as much due to the difference in momentum. Really its all matter of simple phyiscs: P=mv.

So the heavier the vehicle will win if both vehicles are traveling the same speed.

And since so much talk of the Blazer has been made in this thread I would invite you to look at this:
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...refox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official_s&sa=N

Granted it's into a brick wall (which wouldn't happen), but it's still decent enough.
 
danoff
I didn't mischaracterize my argument. Don't put words in my mouth. If you're arguing against me because you think this is my position, you're arguing for no reason.

Well, that characterization is what I gathered from your posts. As I said, if you were truly playing the middle-man, you wouldn't be contributing to the debate so much. ;)

danoff
If this:

*quote*

...is your position, then we're done. I agree. The word "significant" makes this claim very easy to believe.

So there you go, perhaps this whole thing was a big misunderstanding, but I doubt it. I think you've mischaracterized your argument. Afterall, this is what you wrote on the first page

The above is a hell of a lot more difficult to substantiate than your previous quote. But if you're saying that you've changed your mind, then my job is done.

Edit: *quote*

You're the first person to accuse me of not reading closely enough, but you could be right.

Well, I think this settles it. I didn't mischaracterize my argument, and I didn't change my mind. That's what I've been arguing this entire time, and if you thought otherwise, then you indeed haven't been reading closely enough. :indiff:

However, I couldn't really blame you much if you were basing your assumptions about me on my first/earliest comments in the thread. Those were more on the "rant-y" side. ;)

For example, the comment about the Smart Fortwo was pure hyperbole.

Does this explain everything, then?

Firebird
Not that I think the ForTwo is unsafe, but a crash into a concrete wall is not indicative of what would happen in a ForTwo vs. SUV crash. Your assertion that "a Smart's cabin would be the better one to be in in a 60mph head on crash between an SUV and a ForTwo" is misguided.

Let's simplify the physics down to the very basics. This isn't really accurate, but for the purposes of my point it'll do. Assume a concrete wall to be perfectly rigid, that is to say it will not dissipate any of the energy the Smart possesses when it impacts the wall, and thus the Smart will have to absorb all of the energy itself.

Let's say for simplicity's sake the crash occurs at 108 km/h (67.5 mph or 30 m/s), and the ForTwo has a mass of 800 kg.

The ForTwo's kinetic energy: the energy it possesses as a result of its motion, is

KE = (1/2)*m*v^2 ,

where m = mass and v = velocity

So, KE = (1/2)*(800 kg)*(30 m/s)^2 = 360 kJ

So the ForTwo can successfully absorb 360 kJ.



Let's assume it's in a head-on collision with a 2500 kg SUV going the same 67.5 mph.

The SUV has KE=(1/2)*(2500)*(30)^2 = 1125 kJ.

The SUV is assumed to have a ladder frame which does not absorb crashes well. Let's assume the Smart must absorb 75% of the kinetic energy in the crash.

0.75*(360+1125)= 1114 kJ.

That's over three times the amount of energy it had to absorb when it hit the concrete wall. That's probably enough to destroy a ForTwo frame.


If you hit a concrete wall you'd want to be in a ForTwo over your average SUV, but you'd probably die if an SUV hit you head-on at 70 mph.

Not to belittle your nice calculations, there, but that doesn't really matter -- the Smart ForTwo was designed to be a city car, where speeds won't be reaching 70mph, but will instead be around 30-40mph, which, in a head-on collision, would match more closely with the first speed (67.5mph). ;)
 
There was a study released not that long ago that compared the safety of cars and SUVs on a scale of size, and the results were suprising. I have been unable to find the exact results, but I will atempt to describe them the best I can. I have chosen to illustrate the baisic idea with this very simple (almost childish) graph:



The Y-axis represents the generalized ammount of safety produced by a given vehicle. The X-axis represents the size of a given vehicle, the green line being some of the smallest cars (Kia Rio, Chevy Aveo, etc.), the orange line representing the mid-size cars (Toyota Camry, Chevrolet Impala, etc.), and the red line representing large SUVs (Ford Expedition, Mercedes G-Wagon, etc.).

The baisic idea, atleast of what I have read, is that the general safety of a given automobile is largely determined by the size.

The extremely small cars, despite the fact that they have become safer, are still in danger from larger and heavier vehicles that are on the road today. Their lack of overall size and weight therefore lets them simply be "pushed around" in comparison to the larger cars and trucks on the road. Of course, just like many of the other classifications, there are exceptions to the rule (the Honda Fit comes to mind), but in general the cars arent nearly as safe as the larger models.

The mid-size models largely benefit from their larger size and slightly heavier weight. Beyond that, generally more safety features are built into these vehicles as they are often the main part of the sales to come from a particular company. Added to that is the growing public interest in safety, presumably from the percieved "danger" they face from the SUVs, and thus greater ammounts of safety features have been added to the average Accord or 300. Of course there are again, exeptions to the rule, as several models recieve very poor ratings (the Ford Fusion and Infiniti G35 come to mind), but in general, you are much safer in a mid-size than anything else.

SUVs in general are "safe," but that is often limited by the fact that they can roll over so easily, and their heavier weight can often cause more problems when good. Think of an SUV as a bowling ball traveling down the bowling alley at a set of pins, the pins being stopped traffic. Because of gravity and momentum, the bowling ball simply plows through the lighter and smaller pins, seemingly doing nothing to the bowling ball itself. Although no one would deny that an SUV wouldnt be damaged, if it were to colide into a pile of Kia Rios, you are probably more likely to walk out of a Thoe than a Rio in a given accident, unless of course, rollover happens.
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The point that I am attempting to get at is that really, no vehicle is going to be 110% protected when coliding with another. In many situations, a smaller car can be just as safe as an SUV, and vice versa.

I personally am going to be more likely to look into a VW Jetta or Passat Wagon (possibly with 4MOTION) over a small SUV in most situations, but I can understand why people buy them, and why many people do not. I also completely understand the complaints filed against them (I have my own as well), but I would also do my best to defend those who drive SUVs.

Neither side is going to be able to see eye to eye, and I suppose the meeting ground is going to have to be the growing Crossover market, but I'm sure there are going to be people who start complaining about them pretty soon as well...
 
BlazinXtreme
The only problem with the EXT is that the thrid row sucks. But then again as I believe danoff said thrid rows are going to suck on everything short of a Excursion.

But its nice to see other statistic that aren't from the US because that shows that they are more practical in other countries as well.

:)

BMWs and M-B are always expensive no matter what country ;)

Edit: Nice graph YSSMAN! No, not kidding ;) :lol:
 
BlazinXtreme
What does that prove? Bigger vehicles typically win in an accident. If the Neon hit the Tahoe in the same spot it would do damage but not as much due to the difference in momentum. Really its all matter of simple phyiscs: P=mv.
Theoretically, yes. However, the Neon has both less frontal area (and thus would punch through easier), and the Tahoe is less structually sound on the sides due to more area needing to be supported than the Neon has (due to the Neon having a lower roof and shorter doors). Now, in real life, would the Neon punch through it? No. The Neon sits too low. But if it sat on an even level with the Tahoe, the results would be infavor of the Neon. Would the front deform more on the Neon than the Tahoe? Yes. Would it do less damge to the Tahoe? No.
BlazinXtreme
So the heavier the vehicle will win if both vehicles are traveling the same speed.
I know that. I was just saying that that picture you posted didn't prove that.

BlazinXtreme
Even that Blazer, however, suffers from Isuzu Rodeo-effect.
 
GT4_Rule
What exactly is the Isuzu-Rodeo effect? Rollovers? :confused:
Isuzu Rodeo-effect is this:
1e6e60f3c5e0fd49fd4f6e06b6eb3b06_1.jpg

See the a-pillar? That means the engine pushed the dashboard right into teh front seat passengers, and the bottom of the window went with it. Better SUV's don't do that, as the engine takes all of the impact and doesn't push into the interior.
 
GT4_Rule
What exactly is the Isuzu-Rodeo effect? Rollovers? :confused:


Folds in on it's self.

Even that Blazer, however, suffers from Isuzu Rodeo-effect.

Still gets 4 stars, which is good enough. And I don't plan on hitting any brick walls anytime soon.
 
Firebird
Not that I think the ForTwo is unsafe, but a crash into a concrete wall is not indicative of what would happen in a ForTwo vs. SUV crash. Your assertion that "a Smart's cabin would be the better one to be in in a 60mph head on crash between an SUV and a ForTwo" is misguided.
Crash tests arn't 100% accurate, I know, but show me any SUV that will leave the cabin intact hitting a concrete wall at 70mph. I've seen plenty of car's and SUV's taking part in 60mph conrete block tests and the results are not as good as the Smart's was at 70mph.
 
Poverty
neither would a volvo or s-class driver.

Uhhhh ok, what does that have to do with anything? So a Volvo has more then likely a 5 star rating, but so does the Ford Windstar mini van.
 
Poverty
its pretty much self explanatory.

No it's not, saying that they won't be hitting brick walls is very out there. I was saying that because there was a picture of a Blazer hitting a brick wall. I still have no idea what your point was.
 
Wolfe2x7
Not to belittle your nice calculations, there, but that doesn't really matter -- the Smart ForTwo was designed to be a city car, where speeds won't be reaching 70mph, but will instead be around 30-40mph, which, in a head-on collision, would match more closely with the first speed (67.5mph). ;)

Depends on the city you live in I suppose. Here you don't have much of a choice: you'll need to take 50-60 mph roads to get anywhere.
 
live4speed
Crash tests arn't 100% accurate, I know, but show me any SUV that will leave the cabin intact hitting a concrete wall at 70mph. I've seen plenty of car's and SUV's taking part in 60mph conrete block tests and the results are not as good as the Smart's was at 70mph.

You don't understand: SUVs do poorly in those kinds of crash tests because they don't "give". And they have to deal with more energy than a smaller cars do in similar crashes, simply because they weigh more. Smaller unibody cars "give", and deal with smaller amounts of energy, which is why they do better.

For the same reasons SUVs tend to rip right through smaller cars in head-on crashes.
 
This thread is slowing down - the heat's going over to the Veyron thread :guilty:

I envy you Firebird - Calgary has so much more modern infrastructures than Vancouver...you guys have a highway going around the city, like you see in Dallas or Houston right?

Things are stupid in Vancouver - the government has to negotiate with a billion different groups just to widen the TransCanada Highway from 4 to 8 lanes and twin the damned Port Mann Bridge thats 40+ years old. That frekkin bridge has 4 1/2 lanes and its congested all day and it takes an hour or more to cross that thing during rush hour. I want to go to Alberta man...
 
We've got a "ring road" freeway under construction. Parts of it are complete, but large sections are still incomplete (notably the entire east side of it, although it isn't that big a deal as there isn't much out there anyway). Still, there are roads like Deerfoot Trail, which cuts straight through the east side of the city and is at points eight lanes wide with a speed limit of 100-110 km/h, and smaller ones like Glenmore and Crowchild Trail which are for the most part six lanes and 80 km/h. They're integral to the Calgary transportation infrastructure. Quips about the ForTwo being "city cars that only go 30-40 mph" sound ridiculous to me. You'd be stuck in Downtown if you never went on a 50-60 mph road here.
 
You guys are rich....man...

Theres no way someone can spend all their time driving a Smart ForTwo at below 40mph. Just what you said.

During me and my mom's trip to a nearby store for grocery shopping, I spotted 3 trucks/SUVs hauling or towing stuff. Now I dont carry a camera to shopping, so I didnt get photos though. One had a trailer, one had two dirtbikes in its bed, and the last one was carrying some wood.
 
The Smart ForTwo isn't Canadian, now is it? ;)

It's a perfect run-around-town vehicle, especially for tightly-packed European cities. Think of it as a really nice 4-wheeled moped instead of a car. :)
 
Famine
And that's all fair game BUT...

The majority of school runs (in the UK) are short-distance, suburban/city roads. The likeliest accident is vehicle-vehicle at low to very low speeds. Rollover isn't even a concern (though it is possible to tip even a small hatchback at 20mph, if the circumstances are right).

Of course since every other bugger has got one, if you aren't in one yourself you place yourself at serious risk.

And while an SUV may not be good at avoiding accidents, the higher driving position affords greater visibility and the opportunity to use that visibility to not pull out of a side street underneath an articulated lorry because you couldn't see past that damn UPS van.

On at least one point --every other bugger has got one-- you are "preaching to the choir" as they say here in the South. The popularity of SUVs has turned choosing a safe vehicle for your family into an arms race. If you want to keep up, you have to go high and get heavy. In my town, especially in our neighborhood, more than half the vehicles we see on our daily commute is an SUV or pickup truck. And of those, at least a third are the full sized variety.

So when we had our second child, I knew it was time to replace the tiny Jetta Mk IV my wife was driving. So we replaced it with this:

murano11.jpg


Maybe I didn't clarify my position in my post, because it may have sounded like I was arguing against SUVs in general when safety is a primary concern. I wasn't entirely. I was hoping to highlight the trade offs between SUVs vs. passenger cars and differentiate how they mitigate certain risk factors.

In our case, the Murano is barely an SUV. It has about the same internal capacity as a mid sized wagon, a paltry 3000 lb tow capacity and almost no off road capability to speak of.

But what it DOES do well is act more like a car. It has responsive, alert steering; *surprisingly* good handling for something that weighs two tons and very good brakes. Compared to the Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited we also looked at, the Murano drives circles around it. I credit these traits to the fact that the Murano is built on a car platform, while the Jeep is a true body on frame SUV* EDIT: Although I'm apparantly wrong about this.

The Jeep tows. It will cover terrain the Murano can't dream of. But the suspension is soggy like milk-soaked cereal and ride quality is brittle over rough pavement. At highway speeds (~80 mph where I live), the Jeep felt floaty and unattached to the road. This, frankly, makes me nervous as hell.

Bottom line is the suspension compromises, additional driveline hardware and even the very construction, makes the Jeep adept off road, but less adept ON road, which is where my wife and I spend 99.9% of our time. We have nothing to tow. We don't go off road except for the rare occasions that we visit her relatives who live in rural Georgia and have to drive down one of those packed dirt and clay ruts that pass for roads there. It would be utterly pointless for us to have a Grand Cherokee.

What I wanted was a CAR. But what we felt we needed was an SUV. What we ended up with was something like a jacked up heavy car, because everybody has one. Fair enough, you don't always get what you want. At least the wife *loves* the stupid thing. And even I have to admit it's pretty good for what it is.

At least Nissan is perfectly honest about what it is. On the window sticker it reads: "The On Road SUV".


M
 
OT- Excellent car ///M-Spec!

Lovely V6 in the Murano.


Crash predictions confuse me. If people are in identical small cars, does that increase the chances of both parties surviving, since the impact "force" is equally split, or does it mean equal chances of a bloody death?
 
Murano = Nice. My dad wants one.

And yes, it becomes rather like "MAD" really. One side has SUVs, so the other must have them... Cold War on the roads... :D
 
Wolfe2x7
The Smart ForTwo isn't Canadian, now is it? ;)

It's a perfect run-around-town vehicle, especially for tightly-packed European cities. Think of it as a really nice 4-wheeled moped instead of a car. :)

No it isn't Canadian.


Nor is it a U.S. vehicle. But as far as I am concerned I am authoritative on the usage of the Smart ForTwo, as they're sold and driven here. You can stuff your preconceived notions of how a ForTwo should be used: I know firsthand how they're used.
 
///M-Spec
I credit these traits to the fact that the Murano is built on a car platform, while the Jeep is a true body on frame SUV.

The Grand Cherokee has never, ever been a body-on-frame truck. Nor the Cherokee since 1983. In fact, in the last 20 years there have been only two new body-on-frame Jeeps: YJ and TJ (or three if you count the new JK Wrangler).
 
Thanks for the (unexpected) compliments on the Murano. :) The wife is quite smitten with it.

Firebird
The Grand Cherokee has never, ever been a body-on-frame truck. Nor the Cherokee since 1983. In fact, in the last 20 years there have been only two new body-on-frame Jeeps: YJ and TJ (or three if you count the new JK Wrangler).

My mistake then, I thought otherwise. The compromises must all be in the suspension tuning then.


M
 
///M-Spec
Thanks for the (unexpected) compliments on the Murano.

Well of course you're still obviously worse than Hitler, and raping our planet with your gas-guzzling monster...
 
Wolfe2x7
Well, that characterization is what I gathered from your posts. As I said, if you were truly playing the middle-man, you wouldn't be contributing to the debate so much. ;)

Wasn't playing the middle-man, don't know where you got that idea.

Well, I think this settles it. I didn't mischaracterize my argument, and I didn't change my mind. That's what I've been arguing this entire time, and if you thought otherwise, then you indeed haven't been reading closely enough. :indiff:

However, I couldn't really blame you much if you were basing your assumptions about me on my first/earliest comments in the thread. Those were more on the "rant-y" side. ;)

For example, the comment about the Smart Fortwo was pure hyperbole.

If you say so. Yes, if your argument is that a "substantial" (not even necessarily MOST, just substantial) number of SUV drivers don't use their vehicles for what they were intended, then I'm in agreement. That statement says very little and would be hard to find incorrect.

I've learned something in this thread though that I hadn't really realized before. Gas mileage is more about number of cylinders (minus the expensive variable cylinder control stuff on the Hondas like the odyssey), than it is about size. A V8 tahoe gets the same mileage as a V8 E wagon. A V6 escape gets about the same mileage as a V6 minivan and the V6 Audi TT. Sure, there examples where this doesn't work out, but it seems to be a good rule of thumb. So when you think about gas guzzlers, don't think so much about those damned SUVs, think about those damned V8s.

(note: I like V8s, but I don't mind low mpg vehicles either)
 
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