T500RS Force Feedback

C

CrankyCraig

14
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
Hi all, back again to seek advice from the GT elders.

I've had on/off relationships with GT's and wheels over the years, but have decided to give it another go with a T500RS. One hour of play of GTS and I'm suddenly reminded why I don't get on with wheels.

When traction is maintained, the force feedback is sublime, and creates a wonderful sense of presence on the track. However, when oversteering, the experience is transformed into something quite different. The wheel, instead of lightening on initiation of a slide, tightens, and then saws back and forth between loose and taught in a very unnatural way. The feedback alone seems to exacerbate the movements of the car so much, that even the slightest loss of grip without intervention pulls it off the track unexpectedly in the opposite direction. Testing it back to back with the DS4, it's quite shocking.

My first ever driving experience on a track IRL almost 20 years ago, we were instructed not to attempt to catch slides, because of the risk of being spat off the opposite direction if we got it wrong, and were instead instructed to let go of the wheel and allow the car to spin into the bend. With a DS4 this is exactly what happens. With this wheel, In the same situation I'm off the opposite way every time for reasons I can't fathom.

My question is what, if anything, can be done about this? I'd love to be able to try GTS without force beedback, as even on the lowest setting it still feels horrible having the wheel tugged and pulled from my hands for, as far as I'm concerned, no good reason. It seems like a waste, but would disconnecting the belt work? Desperately hoping you guys have figured this one out.
 
I wonder if it's the wheel. T500 is quite an old piece of equipment with old software. If I have understood correctly T500 is quite heavy with its force feedback.
The described problems seems to be absent with T300RS and especially after the GTS physics update drifting is a lot easier now.
 
By the sound of it, you're letting the wheel's feedback control your hands rather than the other way around.

How long have you been using the wheel?
 
GordonS
I wonder if it's the wheel. T500 is quite an old piece of equipment with old software. If I have understood correctly T500 is quite heavy with its force feedback.
The described problems seems to be absent with T300RS and especially after the GTS physics update drifting is a lot easier now.
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it’s nothing to do with the age of the wheel, the T500 is supported.
 
Seems to be in GTS feedback for me as well. Really abrupt and obnoxious sometimes. I have t300rs. No problems with Assetto or Project Cars. This is why I assume so many complain about GTS feedback. One instance that comes to mind is driving the Mini Cooper and applying acceleration in corners. The feedback goes from a smooth corner to a gross unrealistic rumble that really takes away from the experience.
 
Beezer215
Seems to be in GTS feedback for me as well. Really abrupt and obnoxious sometimes. I have t300rs. No problems with Assetto or Project Cars. This is why I assume so many complain about GTS feedback. One instance that comes to mind is driving the Mini Cooper and applying acceleration in corners. The feedback goes from a smooth corner to a gross unrealistic rumble that really takes away from the experience.
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That oversteer rumble can be cured/changed by putting the wheel in PS3 mode (only on T300) where it emulates a T500. You can’t use the wheels buttons outside the game though, ie it won’t work on PS menus, it may not allow you to use the PS button in this mode either (just like a T500). When the game originally released the T500 would shake violently when understeering it was changed in an update early on. I have heard of people using the t300 in ps mode to avoid the violent shaking.
 
Oh drat, I was hoping someone would be able to identify something very obvious I was doing. However, that's not to say there isn't something.

I remember experiencing a similarly unnatural feeling with the T500RS and G29 in GT6, though being a couple of years ago I can't say whether it was definitely the same thing. Not that I'm a pro drifter IRL, but what I was experiencing in game during a drift was nothing at all like real experiences I've had in cars, which upset me enough to shelve the wheel idea. Obnoxious is an apt description.

I had torque set to 1, and sensitivity set to 1, with the assumption that this would provide the least interference from the wheel. I'll experiment later with the torque at 3 and sensitivity at 10 and see what difference it makes.
 
Beezer215
Seems to be in GTS feedback for me as well. Really abrupt and obnoxious sometimes. I have t300rs. No problems with Assetto or Project Cars. This is why I assume so many complain about GTS feedback. One instance that comes to mind is driving the Mini Cooper and applying acceleration in corners. The feedback goes from a smooth corner to a gross unrealistic rumble that really takes away from the experience.
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Never got Project Cars force feedback to work anywhere near as well as GTS. Please DM me your settings so that I can try again, thanks

CJ
 
CJ1045
Never got Project Cars force feedback to work anywhere near as well as GTS. Please DM me your settings so that I can try again, thanks

CJ
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Me too, Project cars feels inconsistent and very vague around the centre on certain cars. Never had any problems with Assetto Corsa or GTS.
 
CrankyCraig
Oh drat, I was hoping someone would be able to identify something very obvious I was doing. However, that's not to say there isn't something.

I remember experiencing a similarly unnatural feeling with the T500RS and G29 in GT6, though being a couple of years ago I can't say whether it was definitely the same thing. Not that I'm a pro drifter IRL, but what I was experiencing in game during a drift was nothing at all like real experiences I've had in cars, which upset me enough to shelve the wheel idea. Obnoxious is an apt description.

I had torque set to 1, and sensitivity set to 1, with the assumption that this would provide the least interference from the wheel. I'll experiment later with the torque at 3 and sensitivity at 10 and see what difference it makes.
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What are your FFB settings?
 
My feeling is that Project Cars is inconsistent in the most part for good reason.
In GTS, everything feels the same, whether you're driving a kart to a road car to a GT3 to an F1. It's all the same feedback and all feels the same. Some like that and it lends to consistency in driving across platforms I assume. Also might add to the monotony of the game.
In Project Cars I don't see it as a "set it and forget" force feedback. Karts are actually hard on the wheel like in real life. Move to road cars and the feedback lifts a little due to shocks and power steering.
I think I'm using immersive and I don't like fighting with ridiculous gain levels but the other parameters are close to center I believe and I notch them this way or that way depending on what we're racing. I would have to turn on the game to get the exact numbers and I'm not around right now.
I will agree that PC2 does take an amount of time fidgeting with settings though which can take away from the experience.
 
Leggacy
That oversteer rumble can be cured/changed by putting the wheel in PS3 mode (only on T300) where it emulates a T500. You can’t use the wheels buttons outside the game though, ie it won’t work on PS menus, it may not allow you to use the PS button in this mode either (just like a T500). When the game originally released the T500 would shake violently when understeering it was changed in an update early on. I have heard of people using the t300 in ps mode to avoid the violent shaking.
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Just did this today, amazing what a difference on the T300 it makes, I have no idea why they have it set different in the first place.
 
Tried it again tonight, and nothing I've found so far seems to make any improvement. Increasing the sensitivity and torque of the force feedback seems to exacerbate the comedic handling. Changing the rotation between 360-900 degrees makes no appreciable difference. Someone mentioned firmware, but the wheel is fully up to date firmware wise, so that isn't an issue.

My assumption is still that I'm doing something wrong, or haven't got something set up correctly. The handling and force feedback with the wheel, up to the point where it breaks traction, is fantastic. When the car begins to oversteer, it transforms into cartoon handling when using the wheel.

Perhaps the more important question to the steering wheel drifters amongst you guys is, is it possible to enter an oversteer situation in GTsport, and not have to fight the wheels force feedback at any point during the slide, even under perfect circumstances? To slide out of the drift in a progressive way? Because if so, despite goodness knows how many hundreds of attempts, I'm yet to experience that with a wheel. Every time I enter a drift, it feels like an elastic band has wound up, and no matter how smoothly the drift is going, at some indeterminable point in the slide it's going to spring the steering back violently the opposite way. If I catch that, I can continue, otherwise I'm spun off the track, and left with a feeling of 'WTF was that?'. Exactly what forces are the force feedback trying to replicate mid drift?
 
Beezer215
My feeling is that Project Cars is inconsistent in the most part for good reason.
In GTS, everything feels the same, whether you're driving a kart to a road car to a GT3 to an F1. It's all the same feedback and all feels the same. Some like that and it lends to consistency in driving across platforms I assume. Also might add to the monotony of the game.
In Project Cars I don't see it as a "set it and forget" force feedback. Karts are actually hard on the wheel like in real life. Move to road cars and the feedback lifts a little due to shocks and power steering.
I think I'm using immersive and I don't like fighting with ridiculous gain levels but the other parameters are close to center I believe and I notch them this way or that way depending on what we're racing. I would have to turn on the game to get the exact numbers and I'm not around right now.
I will agree that PC2 does take an amount of time fidgeting with settings though which can take away from the experience.
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Poppycock as far as GTS. As far as myself, I’ve played a lot of GTS hours and as far as gt3 cars go I’m really only good with a couple.
Your post mentioned that you believe that the kart in GTS feels the same as a gt3?!
Good one bud.
GTS is a good game. These posts seem like obvious attempts to downplay its quality.
 
I don't know what wheel you're using and I don't know what a poppycock is but if it's a cross between a peacock and a flower, I've never seen one.
I however have experienced to a degree what the original poster has explained. If I were to elaborate on what I meant, When either driving a kart or gt3 or F1 car, when experiencing oversteer in these different platforms, you still get the same abrupt oversteer vibration that tries to take the wheel from you. It's not very far off to say that whether you hit a kerb with a fiat or with a gt3 car, you experience the same vibration no matter what. I've heard other people explain this same thing and I agree. Some don't like it, I'm on the fence. I'm glad you like it.
 
Beezer215
I don't know what wheel you're using and I don't know what a poppycock is but if it's a cross between a peacock and a flower, I've never seen one.
I however have experienced to a degree what the original poster has explained. If I were to elaborate on what I meant, When either driving a kart or gt3 or F1 car, when experiencing oversteer in these different platforms, you still get the same abrupt oversteer vibration that tries to take the wheel from you. It's not very far off to say that whether you hit a kerb with a fiat or with a gt3 car, you experience the same vibration no matter what. I've heard other people explain this same thing and I agree. Some don't like it, I'm on the fence. I'm glad you like it.
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Lol suuuuure
 
CrankyCraig
My question is what, if anything, can be done about this? I'd love to be able to try GTS without force beedback, as even on the lowest setting it still feels horrible having the wheel tugged and pulled from my hands for, as far as I'm concerned, no good reason.
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I'm pretty sure drifters need to know how much load the steering rack is under and the feedback tells you that. Albeit in an exaggerated game like way (no 'seat of the pants' feedback) but still controllable as long as you don't go over a certain steering angle.

Don't take this the wrong way but you need to man up and control the wheel. Once the slide starts, the steering will weight up and balancing the throttle together with the steering angle will ease off on the feedback. Hard to describe but it sounds like you're trying to reach a good drift angle, failing to reach it, then over correcting or not anticipating the feedback at all.

You have to forget what you can do in a real car as there's simply no comparison to GTS. I've been driving over 30 years and none of it helped me in GTS.

I asked earlier in the thread but you didn't answer. How long have you been using a wheel?
 
I first used a wheel to play GT2, then 3, but have only dabbled with the use of a wheel since GT5. Back then the wheel I was using was a child's toy compared to modern wheels, but I have fond memories of my time with it, and I think that's what keeps bringing me back to try again. Whenever I decide to give it another go, I start to use the wheel, discover the effect I don't like, then give up on the idea.

Drifter's IRL may need to know how much load the wheels under, but in GTS they don't, otherwise drifting with a DS4 wouldn't be as easy as it is. The wheel, during a drift should be under a very minimal load, and that lightening of it as the rear lets go is what should serve as an indicator that, if you don't do something, you're rear end is about to overtake your front.

You're right about not anticipating the feedback though. With the front wheels pointed in the direction I'm moving in, and the back slide being controlled by the throttle, I just don't understand this tremendous force that throws the steering the opposite way. It's like a tank slapper you might find yourself in if the wheels were pointed in entirely the wrong direction during a drift. But they aren't. There are loads of elements of GTS to love, but drifting has been a firm favourite since GT2. Back then, most people didn't even realise it was a thing, never mind possible to do in game.

If, as you suggest and I suspect, the wheel physics are dubious, then I'd rather not bother. It's a shame, and I don't want to give up on it again, but I feel the same way about it that I feel about the left right controls being reversed. I've no doubt I could learn to play it that way, but I wouldn't enjoy it.

I'm going to try disconnecting the wheels motor. No idea if it will work as nobody else seems to either notice or care enough to try it, but, aside from time I've nothing to loose. I'll report back with my findings.
 
Thanks for answering.:)

It makes a lot more sense now as you've never made the full transition to a wheel. If you'd been using it a while, you'd be reading the feedback instantly and be more than ready for it when it kicks in.

With your T500 being a consumer grade wheel, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing (it's a racing wheel after all) and even with the torque set on 1, you'll still get a decent kick when the rear slides but with enough angle, you'll be able to combat it with throttle control. (Speaking of which, GTS has a non linear throttle and takes a lot of learning so perhaps that's another stumbling block for you. Lots of practice is the only answer for that unfortunately but you can at least anticipate the initial kick and work from there.)

CrankyCraig
If, as you suggest and I suspect, the wheel physics are dubious, then I'd rather not bother.
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I wouldn't say they're dubious. Just exaggerated to compensate for the loss of other driving sensations. It's more than possible to learn how though but you at least need decent, regular car control before you start, otherwise it'll be very steep learning curve.

There's a few good drift videos in here if you haven't seen them yet.

I sometimes have a giggle with rally cars on CS tyres as they're very easy to drift and hold angle. Might be an idea to learn the basics of drifting with a wheel with those? I can drift with FR and MR too but not for long. It's seriously tiring. Great fun with a pad though.
 
PC2 FF settings:

Immersive
Gain: 20 - 30 (set to your liking)
Volume - 50
Tone - 80
FX - 50

This is subjective but I like it. T300RS
 
So, I've disconnected the motor and gave it a go. First impressions are... predictably enough, I'm crap. I was expecting to disconnect the force feedback and instantly be able to pull off 360 entries like I can with the controller, but I'm disappointed to learn that I'm not even close to that level, and I can see it'll be a long time before I am. Practising though has never been so fun.

No FF is perhaps not as advantageous as I'd hoped where drifting is concerned. I feel as if I've exchanged an artificial steering feel, for no steering feel whatsoever. The upside is that it isn't as tiring or irritating having the wheel yanked from hand whenever I try to get the back out. The downside is the bits between each drift - regular driving is horrible without force feedback. There's just no going back to simpler style wheels after experiencing it, so I'll fit a switch to the side of the case to be able to manually switch the motor on or off.

If nothing else, I think it'll be easier to learn to drift this way. Although in many areas I prefer GTS, I've gone back to GT6, as I'd put a bit of time into that one with a wheel prior to this, and I also get to experience some of the drift friendly tracks that unfortunately haven't made the transition to GTS. After an hour or 2 I was performing some long, linked drifts, though relatively low angle and not consistently. There's an awful lot of rotation I can't reliably make use of at the moment, and moderating throttle control is far more necessary than the mostly on/off DS4 application.

I asked a question on here a while back, when I wanted to know why the GR3/4 online events are are so popular. I get it entirely now. The cars that I find fun with a DS4 are near impossible to control on the limit with a wheel, where the GR3/4 cars are infinitely more fun.

So, I'm happy to assume for the time being that all of the difficulties that I'm having are due to a lack of ability, and are in no way related to the game/wheel physics. I'll keep practising and see where I end up.
 
OK, so in the time thats passed since my last post I've fixed the wheel (pedal potentiometers and belts) and fitted an on/off switch to the outer case to control the FFB motor. I've also learned to drift big angles, which was made a lot easier by not having to fight the motors inaccurate feedback. I still can't do it as confidently or reliably as with the controller, but it's still early days.

I'm having a load of fun with the game. The combination of the wheel and VR (not in VR mode) is one of the best gaming experiences I've had to date, and since trying it there's no going back to a TV now. Having said that, the force feedback with the T500RS is truly terrrible, and I understand why I was struggling so much with it to begin with.

I'm keen to know if all wheels are equally terrible, or is it something specific to this wheel? Load the steering on a bend, and it weights up as expected, but give it a bootfull in a FR or MR car mid corner and break rear traction, and steering weight doesn't change at all, no matter what the FFB settings. Mid drift, with the motor on, the fight against it is often just silly. Turn it off though, and drifting becomes predictable and fun.

Does anything change with the higher end/newer wheels? Because if so, I'd be very tempted to upgrade.
 
I also use T500RS, starting with GT5, T500RS using GTS to force feedback response is normal and doesn't encounter the problem you're talking about，

I think it's just that you don't fit in with GTS's mandatory feedback performance, just like me, I can't drift in AC as smoothly as GTS，

It's almost impossible to drift in a PC2, it's a sensory difference for everyone, and everyone's ability to adapt is different.

In the case of GTS, the difference between "road TAB" and "Drift TAB" alone, there are players who cannot adapt，

Like I am also unable to accept the "Drift TAB" drift when the steering wheel feedback.
 
Leggacy
That oversteer rumble can be cured/changed by putting the wheel in PS3 mode (only on T300) where it emulates a T500. You can’t use the wheels buttons outside the game though, ie it won’t work on PS menus, it may not allow you to use the PS button in this mode either (just like a T500). When the game originally released the T500 would shake violently when understeering it was changed in an update early on. I have heard of people using the t300 in ps mode to avoid the violent shaking.
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I am using a T300 in PS3 mode and it has certainly helped to eliminate much of the 'judder' I was experiencing, but it hasn't gone completely. Do you know if there is anything else I can do to try to further reduce or eliminate the problem?
 
watashi49uk
I am using a T300 in PS3 mode and it has certainly helped to eliminate much of the 'judder' I was experiencing, but it hasn't gone completely. Do you know if there is anything else I can do to try to further reduce or eliminate the problem?
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I don’t know if it’s the same on the t300 as with the t500. The judder only occurs on understeer, like the tyres are skipping across the tarmac. Maybe you’re using more steering angle than is necessary or your speed is too higher on the way in?
 
Leggacy
I don’t know if it’s the same on the t300 as with the t500. The judder only occurs on understeer, like the tyres are skipping across the tarmac. Maybe you’re using more steering angle than is necessary or your speed is too higher on the way in?
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Thank you very much for the suggestions. I don't think I'm entering corners too fast; I've been playing Gran Turismo since version 1 and I think I've developed a reasonable technique. I'll take a closer note of when the judder happens and see whether the tune I'm using for any particular car might benefit from a steering angle adjustment as you've suggested. Thanks again for your input.
 

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