The GTS Force Feedback Problems Thread

Discussion in 'Gran Turismo Sport' started by VBR, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    UPDATE: I now think the problem is probably down to this, https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/understeer-rattle-effect-poll-only-for-wheel-users.376839/

    Just to be clear, I'm discussing three things in this thread; 1) the FFB vibration/lightness feature/bug, 2) the general lack of detail in the FFB, & 3) how most racing games/sims get FFB wrong as regards wheel resistance when loading/unloading under different conditions.

    Original post below...



    Although not 100% realistic, the FFB in most GT games has felt pretty good to me, & was is particularly great in GT6. However, the FFB in GT Sport is sub-par in several ways.


    1) The biggest issue IMHO is the way oversteer is being misrepresented. In a real car, you feel oversteer in the form of self-aligning torque; this steers the wheel in the direction the car is oversteering. If the rear end is stepping out to the right the wheel pulls to the right, & if it's sliding to the left the wheel pulls to the left. This is because the front wheels still have traction during a slide & want to go on rolling forward, thus turning the steering wheel. When you feel the steering wheel pulling one way or the other you know you're losing the rear end, & when you feel the pulling start to fade you know you're entering the pause phase, & can get ready to catch the slide.

    However, in GT Sport not only is this effect weaker than in previous games (G29 user), but there's also a completely unrealistic arcade style effect (or a bug, not entirely sure) that makes the wheel "vibrate" on oversteer. The wheel goes light as well during oversteer, which defies the laws of physics as the rear wheels aren't even connected to the steering wheel (the only time the wheel would go light in the real world is when the front suspension unloads for whatever reason, &/or the front tyres lose traction). This makes it incredibly difficult for discerning sim-racers & real race drivers alike to feel oversteer correctly in GTS, & thus catch slides in a realistic & satisfying manner.

    Attention Polyphony Digital; please remove this ludicrously unrealistic arcade style effect, or fix this bug asap!


    2) For non-T-GT users, the FFB in GT Sport is also, generally speaking, a dull & lifeless experience compared to previous titles in the series. I recently went back to try GT6 & did a side by side comparison of the same car on the same track with the same tyres & settings etc, & GT6 outperformed GTS in the FFB department by a country mile. The feel of curbs & the road surface is much more crisp & clear in GT6, while the torque pulling the wheel during oversteer is stronger. Some people feel that there have been a few improvements to GTS in this area via updates, although nothing has been specifically mentioned as regards FFB in any of the changelogs.


    3) How feedback works in the real world: the resistance of a steering wheel when turning in a car is constantly changing based on the loading & unloading of the front suspension plus the traction/SAT & slip etc of the front tyres. This can be particularly strong in cars without power steering, & thus easily felt. Using my real world experience at PalmerSport in 2009 driving a Caterham 7 Superlight R500 on hard slicks & road tyres (in both the dry & wet), I shall now elaborate.

    At a standstill, the resistance was extremely heavy in the R500 & it was almost impossible to turn the wheel; when the wheels started to roll this dissipated with the increase of speed. On the head-to-head track, dumping the clutch & going full throttle as my instructor advised me to do, produced an incredible lightness in the resistance of the wheel, this was because the front suspension had unloaded due to acceleration. Coming off the throttle & engine braking made the resistance heavier, as did braking with the brake pedal (which was much heavier than engine braking alone). When I broke too hard & locked up the front tyres, the resistance in the wheel went fairly light despite the front suspension still being under load. Also, on cars with front aero (& to a lesser extent, cars without) the faster you go the more resistance you'll get in the wheel when turning because the air pushing down on the front wing &/or bodywork increases the load on the front suspension/tyres. All of this is blindingly obvious to anyone who's driven a performance car without power steering in anger at a track day. However, you'd be surprised at just how many of the aforementioned aspects are missing from GT Sport, as well as many other simulators.

    How feedback works in most games: the resistance of an FFB steering wheel when turning in most games is static, & is usually based on a wheel resistance setting (some games even allow you to change it to make it stronger or weaker). Yes, the wheel goes light in GT when you go over a jump, but nothing much else really affects it. Ironically, the only other thing that does affect the resistance in GTS is oversteer, which is something that never happens in the real world & thus shouldn't be happening in-game.


    Conclusion: I could live without the realism as regards the many factors that should be affecting wheel resistance when turning in racing simulators, & have done so for the last ten years since my track day experience opened my eyes to it. However, what I cannot tolerate is the inclusion of unrealistic arcade style effects that simply do not exist in the real world. I say again, this may be a bug, in which case it needs to be fixed. But, if it is an intended arcade style effect, it needs to be removed or at the very least we need to be given the option to turn it off. I played a game once that had an effect like this, & I couldn't even bring myself to put in so much as one lap; I now feel similarly towards Gran Turismo Sport, & that's such a shame. After using FFB wheels in GT games since 2002, GTS is the only game where I don't feel compelled to set my wheel up anymore...

    :rolleyes:

    I'd like to hear well thought out replies from other sim-racer-type wheel users who are knowledgeable about these kinds of matters. What are your thoughts & observations?


    If you got this far, thanks for listening. :cheers:



    PS: This is not a thread for requesting FFB settings, discussions on that can be found here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/force-feedback-and-wheel-settings.380013/
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  2. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    I don’t experience the ffb in gts the way you do.
    What I hear from you is posts saying things like someone should throttle Kaz.
    There’s no vibration on oversteer on my wheel.
    I feel the ffb is quite intuitive. I can jump in either dr title or ac with no adjustment period.
    Really seems pretty good in gts to me.
     
    Haitauer likes this.
  3. MPincombe

    MPincombe

    Messages:
    128
    Yeah I like how my G29 reacts, I know how the car's doing most of the time just in the feeling in the wheel, however I do run my wheel torque on 10 so I might get more force feedback than other wheel users
     
  4. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    If you're running torque on 10 then you're actually getting less FFB than other users. This is because the G29 will start to clip when set to anything above 4. When it clips, you lose FFB detail & don't feel much of anything except lots of resistance. Try a setting of 7 - 4 - 10, & then drive an untuned Evo 96 on Comfort Soft tyres at Brands Hatch GP Circuit. Chuck it around a bit, & see what the oversteer feels like then.


    :tup:
     
  5. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    Sounds like what you are calling oversteer is wheelhopping.
    That’s all wheel drive.
    I mean I don’t drive n cars much at all.
    What I like about the ffb in this game is great sensation of steering rack.
    Try adjusting your sound settings so you hear tire squeal better. That might help to diagnose.
     
  6. ARTAsean

    ARTAsean

    Messages:
    1,165
    Vibration is understeer or scrub (pushing) not oversteer. You should be getting zero vibration on oversteer.

    The fact that you recommend an Evo of all cars is probably the root cause of this.
     
    Groundfish likes this.
  7. Knukel

    Knukel

    Messages:
    411
    I think it's caused by GT Sport's 'broken/bugged FFB signals' rather than well implemented FFB-effect as there are corners where you just can't simulate the effect no matter how hard you crank the wheel or overdrive... Pick any N-class car with low grip tyres and try to get same results lap after lap, i bet you can't.
    IMO front wheel drives are the worst when accelerating from corner; Tsukuba's fast left hander after the dunlop sign for example.
    Also drifting is near impossible because the vibration is often blocking my wheel from countersteering.

    (it's even more pronounced for us Fanatec users)

    P.S iircc i didn't notice it with my T150, but i rememeber T500 users reporting similiar during open beta time.
     
    VBR likes this.
  8. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    You should try the Fanatec recommended settings from the other thread on this page.
    Front drive understeer causes the rattle by too much throttle plus cornering at same time.
    Tires are overloaded and you get understeer/wheel hop.
     
  9. Knukel

    Knukel

    Messages:
    411
    Your explanation could work in some cases; but a lower powered modern FF car with limited throttle at higher speeds (+100mph) shouldn't cause such behaviour, so i doubt.
    And once again, it's so inconsistent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    VBR likes this.
  10. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Have to agree that along with DR, GTS has some of the worst FFB around.

    It's uncommunicative at its best and plain wrong at its worst.
     
    ThePotatoKing, VBR and Sander 001 like this.
  11. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Not even close to how GTS attempts to recreate it, I've experienced both many times and first of the loss of steering weight should come first (GTS has this backwards) and wheelhop is caused by a gain and loss of traction and should be felt by a rapid gain and loss of weight in the steering, not a quite distinct vibration. Nor should you feel it through the steering on oversteer.

    AC gets it right, PC2 gets it right, GTS doesn't.

    Not does GTS communicate any track surface detail unless you are using a TGT, which is an absurd situation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
    VBR and Sander 001 like this.
  12. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    You have to understand tires and car balance.
    If you are near the limit of lateral grip at high speed, it doesn’t take much throttle.
    Plus the actual limit of grip is heavily dependent on the cars balance at any given point of time.
    So if you have some weight transfer also for whatever reason you will not be at optimum slip angle.
    It’s not inconsistent, it always works the same, it just takes understanding of what’s happening which is why I am trying to help.
    I mean I have achieved top 1 percent of game on America’s server so it’s not like I’m making stuff up.
    I truly hope my comments can help you in some manner.
     
  13. Knukel

    Knukel

    Messages:
    411
    Thanks, but not really, no... My experience seems to be far different from yours.
     
    VBR likes this.
  14. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I understand tyres and car balance, I've taught vehicle dynamics, and I gave to say your post is not particularly helpful. Nor does it explain or address the very real issues that the FFB model in GTS has, or the physics issues that are part of the root of some of the FFB issues.
     
    VBR likes this.
  15. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Wheel hopping happens during throttle on, & this weird vibration happens even when the throttle is off, so no, it's not wheel hopping. It also happens in RWD cars.


    Real steering wheels do not vibrate when cars understeer (at least none that I've ever driven), nor have I felt any vibration in GTS when cars understeer. I agree that we should get zero vibration with oversteer, yet it is there, hence this thread.


    No, it's not. It happens on most cars I've driven in the game. It's more noticeable on road cars on Comfort Tyres. I was testing the BMW M4 on Sports Hard Tyres just now, & it happens in that too. It's much more pronounced on the Evo with CS tyres, that's why I recommended it to someone who doesn't seem to have noticed it as yet. The fact his FFB torque was on 10 wouldn't exactly of helped him feel it either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  16. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    Fair enough.
    I guess my point is that excessive steering angle or other factors contribute to vehicles being in an understeer condition. You know, some people reading and posting may not realize how to handle a vehicle in this state or what causes that.

    @VBR
    If you don’t like the feel of wheel hop or understeer stop inducing it via your inputs.
     
  17. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    This reply by @Groundfish is a typical example of a strawman argument...


    :rolleyes:
     
  18. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    My main concern is that its being conflated with how a vehicle would behave in reality.

    Resolving the issue in GTS and reality are two different techniques, as such claiming it to be realistic doesn't help people. An example of this is the lack of liftoff oversteer in GTS, particularly with FWD cars such as the Clio or the weak diff modeling in the ITR. Both result in not only the onset of understeer being modelled oddly, but the real world technique to resolve it not working as it should.
     
  19. Leggacy

    Leggacy

    Messages:
    482
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    None of the current sims/games represent FFB in a real world way. If you only had the real sensations it would probably feel a bit dead. The reason for this is G force, we don’t get any of that. You have to fudge/simulate things that give you the sensation, like the wheel stiffening in a turn.
    Also the current system of the wheel going lite when oversteer happens kind of works for me. In real life you’re get that sensation of not turning when you expect it, as the g forces don’t load up in the way you’d expect. Or may the sensation I’m trying to get at is the one when your brake cable brakes on your bike and you seem to accelerate rather than decelerate :D anyway I kind of like it. And the rumble at extreme oversteer feels great on my T500 it’s a very good indication of how much you’re hurting your tyres :)
     
    Groundfish and Haitauer like this.
  20. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Spot on. When testing the BMW M4 just now it didn't happen every single time the car oversteered, & when it did there was no rhyme or reason too it. Also, sometimes it was more pronounced, & other times less so. It's interesting to hear from someone who drifts, as I thought it must make that difficult when the wheel vibrates.
     
  21. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    A wheel getting heavier as you turn is most certainly a real world thing, it's called self aligning torque!

    I do agree that not all of the canned effects that used to be common should come through the FFB, however I can assure you that we certait should be getting more than we currently do with GTS.
     
    VBR likes this.
  22. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    I mean I don’t drive n cars much.
    I do use gr4 3 etc.
    I’d say the ffb communicates to me well tbh. I know what the cars doing. Lift off oversteer is ABSOLUTELY present. Try the c race this week no aids abs weak cockpit view.
    The intuitive response to understeer for beginners is to turn the wheel more which makes it worse. The correct response is to release a shade of throttle and maintain or reduce steering input or even feather the brake a touch as I am sure people here know but maybe not all so I am putting it in this post.
    If one turns in too much steering angle at too high of speed turning in it can happen.
    Like for me on csl until I updated to factory recommended settings the effect via ffb was a clattering wheel. Very immersion breaking. Now it feels like what the game intends.
    At Brands in the hairpin in the old formula car and at certain times with good settings you feel it what I would call correctly if you are inducing it. The first section at Nurb GP also. At certain times this can be a way to carry a bit more speed in certain parts of certain tracks if one is using a line that’s a bit off. Maybe not optimal but faster than driving with the car on rails which is slow. As you know the object is to get correct slip angle at the limit not just cruise with car on rails.
    As far as reality we know GT Sport is a bit more forgiving as a game.
    But the response to understeer is the same. For me the ffb communicates quite well about the car. The behavior in game is similar to real. It’s intuitive and fun.
    As far as whether it’s the most ‘real’ that’s another story. I just think it’s fun and there’s no glaring mistakes in its implementation.
    The op seemed to define understeer rumble as an over steering car condition which is incorrect.
    Apply too hard of brakes on entry in gt3 car with brake balance set so the fronts lock first you feel it. I like that.
    RS01 seaside first hard uphil left. You can feel the fronts release and slide.
    I think that works very well and I am happy it works well and fanatec doesn’t over exaggerate it with correct wheel adjustment.
     
  23. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

    Messages:
    23,102
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I think the honest assessment of this us that you gave gotten used to how GTS communicates to you and are able to work with that to extract the most out of the car.

    My needs from a titke differ and I'm after the most accurate recreation of reality, as such I look to GTS to scratch other areas (VR, Photomode and Liveries).

    In regard to lift off oversteer, the example I gave us a car that I know (from experience), should generate a good deal if lift off oversteer and simply doesn't in GTS.

    GTS presents a version of reality that I can only describe as smoothed over, and if people enjoy that I have no issue with it. However it doesn't make it a good analog for reality, nor do real world techniques work in the same way as they should.
     
    VBR likes this.
  24. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm leaning more towards this being a bug now. I just spent a good while doing custom races on Brands Hatch in the Hyundai Gr. 4 car, & the FFB felt right (for a GT game) with none of the vibration/lightness during oversteer discernible to me. It was fun! I was on RH tyres, & the car was untuned apart from maximum weight & minimum power. If it was a deliberate feature, it would probably happen all the time in all the cars, but it doesn't. I'm gonna give PD the benefit of the doubt for now & call it a bug.

    In the meantime, I think I'll stick to race cars on race tyres, as they seem to be almost impervious to the problem. Last time I got into race cars in a GT game was in GT3...
     
  25. Groundfish

    Groundfish

    Messages:
    930
    Yeah, pretty spot on there. I mean Nordschleife is a good example between like GT Sport and something like ac or pc2.
    Mistakes in the other games are far harder to overcome.
    I think there’s a stream out there where IOF says something very similar.
    I’m one of those who have driven a few race cars and stuff and for me the game is pretty good and plenty challenging enough.
    Irl I would have no hope of lapping Brands Hatch (one of best tracks in game) in a f1500 and surviving.
     
    Scaff likes this.
  26. Haitauer

    Haitauer

    Messages:
    1,485
    Location:
    Finland
    Please tell me what kind of wheel are you using - makes a big difference. Im on t-gt

    My toughts exactly. Must say im mainly on racing cars with rh/rm tires. The understeer effect is exaggerate and i think thats on purpose to teach people to react to understeer/ too strong steering angle. I even think i saw Kaz/pdi comment this at some point. But it works for me. Optimal would be some kind of softenin/wobble on ffb to feel when tire is collapsing as it would irl. This is my main hope for better ffb - to feel the tire start collapsing just before under/oversteer. In gts street tires feel rock hard as if they slide without flexing/collapsing. Ofcourse more track surface detail would be nice, but i think that has been sacrifices for more information.

    That g29/t500 breaking rattle is gone thank god - you would know if it was still there..:sick::lol:

    For me ffb seems very informative on tgt. I feel understeer, i have very clear oversteer self alining torque, i feel whether wheel are locking or spinning. And im not using tgt rumble as i think its way too high frequency.

    My first impressions exactly from from this combo. :cheers: and self alining torque is violent in this car - especially when fighting traction both sides of center position under acceleration. I feel exactly the same information i would get from g-force and body roll in real life.

    Ps. Still massive differences if ffb between cars and setups atleast on sport tire.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
    Groundfish likes this.
  27. LeGeNd-1

    LeGeNd-1 Premium

    Messages:
    5,290
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm using T-GT and I don't notice any vibration when oversteering. I agree the self centering torque is weaker than in previous games though. Also, I drift better with my G25 than with my T-GT because the static force in the T-GT is just too strong (even at FFB strength 1) which results in me fighting the wheel more than actually "feeling" the car.

    With the G25 I do feel that the overall FFB is better in GTS than GT6, although still nowhere close to proper PC sims obviously. But with the supposedly official wheel T-GT, I feel the FFB is just much worse. There's too much resistance which clouds the fine details of what's happening to the tyres/suspension/weight transfer. And of course, road feel is still nonexistent (T-DFB is a canned effect so that doesn't count). The more you push the limits of the physics, it feels the less sense the FFB has. Whereas in Assetto for example, I can always feel what's happening with the car. If I make a mistake or lose time in a corner, it's quite clear what I did wrong. In GT land driving fast is just reliant on rote memorisation and muscle memory of the perfect braking/turn in/apex/on throttle points.

    @VBR You might want to post a link to this thread on the OP too: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/some-thoughts-on-ffb-sensitivity.384232/

    I'll leave this here as well, just as reminder that FFB discussions will never, ever reach a satisfactory conclusion for everyone. Due to missing g-forces, game FFB will have to add extra effects to compensate. Not everyone has the same equipment. Not everyone has the same brain processing sensations. Not everyone has experience driving all the cars in the game (and each car IRL has a different steering system). So good luck trying to please everyone.

     
    Ridox2JZGTE likes this.
  28. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    If you have a G25 that you can use on the PS4, then please perform the following test & tell me what you find.

    G25, with FFB settings 7/4/10 (torque set higher than 4 may start to mask the bug I'm describing). Evo 96 untuned on CS tyres at Brands Hatch GP, 10 am in the morning. Throw the car around to induce oversteer, & you should now notice that oftentimes with more severe oversteer the wheel will start to vibrate & even go light at points. Now try it with the BMW M4 untuned on SH tyres. You should notice the effect as well, but not as often or pronounced as the Evo. Drive with all assists off except ABS on default.

    I'm not the only one in this thread that has noticed this bug. However, there may be several reasons why others haven't yet. Try the test & see for yourself.


    :tup:
     
  29. georgetigra

    georgetigra

    Messages:
    427
    Location:
    Greece
    How many km/miles do you have in Gts?
     
  30. VBR

    VBR Premium

    Messages:
    6,714
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Under the right conditions, the aforementioned bugs present themselves right away. Therefore, how many miles I've driven in the game is irrelevant.