Tactile Review - Reckhorn 2.1 & BS-200 Kit

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I've been toying with the idea of adding a shaker of some sort to my rig for a while and have recently taken the plunge with a combination of the Reckhorn 2.1 Amp and BS-200 bass shaker. While not a well-known name in gaming / Sim-racing (in comparison to say Buttkicker or ADX), they have been around the AV scene in Europe for quite a while and have a good reputation for solid performance, in a plain package for a good price.

I bought mine in a kit which included the amp, shaker, mounting bracket and all the cabling I required for £185 (just under £200 with next day delivery included), I added a couple of 27mm Key Clamps and some 25mm chrome tubing to accommodate my preferred mounting location, which cost less than £10. Now I do want to state for the record that I am by no means an expert on tactile set-ups and the use of them with sims and rigs; I do however have a lot of experience with Home Cinema, Audio and AV systems in general. The following is my experience of dealing with this for the first time, you can certainly get a lot more complex that my first go, with rigs using multiple shakers and running software to further split out and balance the audio feed across specific shaker units. This is simply a first dip into a very big pond!

VIDEO COMING FOR ANYONE WHO CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO READ.


Set-Up
Set-up for the amp side was quick and easy for myself as I used an RCA Y-splitter on the Sub-woofer output of my AV receiver straight into the back of the Reckhorn amp, with another RCA Y-connector used to feed into both sub inputs on it. A 3.5mm jack to twin RCA is also provided as an alternative input source for PC, etc. 3m of speaker cable is also provided, which has blade connectors already fitted for attachment to the amp and soldered tips for the other end (to which I've added banana plugs), the quality of the speaker cable was a pleasant surprise as its good quality and well made, far from the bell-wire I was expecting.

IMG_20170114_002855.jpg


In terms of the amp, being a 2.1 unit it can be used to drive two satellite speakers, and a sub or shaker unit; in my case I'm using it just to drive the shaker, but it's nice that the option for the satellites exists. Control wise you get the following:

Main Volume:
Controls the overall volume, with the output power rated at 2 x 25watts (0.7% distortion / 4 ohms) for the satellites and 60 watts (4 ohms) or 85 watts (2 ohms) - both at 0.7% distortion. The BS-200 is rated at 4 ohm

Satellite Subsonic:
Sets the low cut for the satellite speakers if used, any frequency below the level set will not be sent to the speakers. Has a range of 10 to 150 hz

Subwoofer Volume:
Controls the subwoofer volume allowing you to blend with the main volume to match output for the sub-woofer and the satellites. If a shaker is being used it controls the output level to it.

Subwoofer Highcut:
Sets the high cut for the subwoofer / shaker, any frequency above this level will not be sent to the sub / shaker. Has a range of 50 to 300 hz

Subwoofer Subsonic:
Sets the low cut for the subwoofer / shaker, any frequency below this level will not be sent to the sub / shaker. Has a range of 5 to 50 hz


Give the amount that frequency ranges are discussed above its worth spending a moment looking at what they mean, as it can have a big impact on how the set-up and operation can be done effectively. Human hearing operates in a range from roughly 20 to 20,000 Hz, with anything lower than 20Hz being felt rather than heard (like the pounding feel you get when you are at a gig) and the higher range not a concern in regard to this review.

The amp in this case can take audio from a game in the range of 5 to 300 hz and transfer that to the shaker unit, which turns it into movement, as the shaker unit is effectively a large magnet that moves at different rates and amounts based on the frequency and volume of the audio. This in turn can then transfer the movement to whatever the shaker is attached to, such as my rig. So the Highcut allows you to set the upper limit of frequencies being sent and the Subsonic the lower limit, with a shaker the Subsonic can go as low as you want, but the Highcut needs a bit of experimentation as some of the frequencies over 150/200hz can result in some nasty vibrations.

Now a few things that I needed to experiment with was the mounting of the shaker itself, the mounting bracket that came with the pack allowed me to try it out directly on the legs of my Playseat Challenge, but the results were a bit unbalanced. So I used two 27mm Key Clamps and a length of 25mm metal tube to create a mounting point between the legs and set the shaker more centrally.

I also found that the angle of the shaker made a significant difference, and settled on it 'moving' in parallel with the travel of the front legs, which transmits the bulk of the 'feel' to the seat back (which is connected to the front legs on the Playseat Challenge) and reduced the amount going to the wheel and pedals. It also provided more feel from the same level of output, while I still get a nice slight vibration through the shifter, which is a great touch.

IMG_20170119_234644.jpg


Now in terms of setting the levels, that's something that requires a lot of experimentation and will also depend on the source you are using to feed the amp, in my case it’s my AV receiver, so the volume that is set to plays a part in the final output as well. This was important for me as I actually use headphones when playing at night, so I can set the levels high on the amp for the shaker and then reduce the level on my AV amp and still get a strong level of output. I also then have the option to turn down the Master Volume on the shaker amp and turn up the volume on the AV receiver when I don't need to use the headphones.

One other thing I found was very important was the use of isolators, four of which were provided with the kit, and I used cable ties to attach these to the corners of my rig. These made a massive difference to the degree of feel you get. It's also important to make sure you don't have anything that is loose or going to rattle on your rig, because once the shaker starts its going to be very obvious and very annoying.

IMG_20170114_133116.jpg


So what's the output like in general terms? The answer is far stronger, more detailed and capable of far more subtle that I expected; capable of 'thumping' enough for you to feel it on your insides, while detailed and subtle enough for difference it road surface to be felt. However one critical thing is that all of this is totally dependent on the title you are using. So I have taken some time with the main driving titles I run and provided some detail of how well they perform with the shaker.


Let's Get Muddy!
So let's start with the titles you would expect to excel with this kind of kit, the world of rally driving titles.


Dirt Rally
Quite frankly amazing, it adds a totally new level of immersion to the title. Road surfaces come through in detail and to such a degree that you can feel the change in surface, its most noticeable in Monte Carlo when you shift from clean tarmac, to partial ice to full ice. It actually helps out massively in Dirt as the force feedback is not great via the wheel on these surfaces.

The car's engine also translates via the shaker as well and the difference between the various models is well communicated via the shaker as well. The combination of all these factors comes most into play when you hit one of the big jumps, as you take off you lose the surface feel and have only the engine, you then land with a thump that you physically feel inside and the return of the road feel. All of which changes to small degrees as the suspension moves. Water splashes give a similar thump when you hit them, again providing an excellent tactile experience.

It's again a similar story when it comes to the transmission, with shifts being felt depending on the car, and in particular with the modern purpose built rally spec cars, you get a good jolt when changing gear.

The only area that Dirt disappoints is in regard to collision with trackside objects, as these seem (for the vast majority) to provide no tactile feedback through the shaker at all. It’s a little immersion breaking, but not the end of the world given how good the rest of the feedback is.


Sebastian Loeb Rally Evo

Great, but not quite amazing. While it does add a lot more detail from the engine of the car, more so than Dirt; it doesn't provide quite as much road surface detail as Dirt.

Now the greater engine detail provides you with another sense with which to judge shift points, engine load, etc. As while sound is good to use, feel is even better, allowing you to focus more on the road and less on the rev counter. The reduced level of track surface feedback in comparison to Dirt is a shame, but SLRE does make up for that to a degree with better force feedback via the wheel.

What disappoints is the lack of a good thump in the back when landing from a jump, what is totally exhilarating in Dirt is reduced to a slight 'tap' in SLRE; however should you leave the track you will certainly know it, as the impact with anything does provide a solid thump and you certainly are not going to miss it if you clip a post.

So overall it’s a lower level of immersion than Dirt, and not quite on the same level, but its still more than enough to add a significant extra layer to the title and certainly gets a thumbs up.


WRC 6
Oh dear, this one is a tale of the OK an the downright bad.

The OK is that the road surface feedback is acceptable, it doesn't really provide much in the way of change over the course of a stage or between different surfaces over the stage, but it's present and adds a level of immersion. You get some more detail as you venture towards the road edge, but it all feels very much the same, almost as if the same back loop of audio is driving it , with very little variation.

You do get some good solid thumps if you make contact with roadside objects and also on landing are jumps, they are not as well done as in SLRE or Dirt respectively but WRC 6 gets a tick for getting them both in.

Now onto the bad. The tactile feedback from the engine is OK, even if it’s a little dominating, as long as you stay over 2,000rpm. Drop below that and the audio is basically a solid, constant low buzz; and that translates into a very unpleasant tactile experience that just feels nasty. Any attempt to reduce it to an acceptable level kills almost all of the tactile feedback the rest of the time, as a result you have to either live with it, live in dread of dropping below 2,000rpm or don't run tactile with WRC 6.

So overall an OK that is ruined by a lazy audio choice on the part of developers, that the developers didn't target someone who might run a tactile rig is understandable, but it doesn't make it any less of an unpleasant experience.


Take It To The Track
Shifting environment, let's take a look at the titles that stick to sealed surfaces for simulation and racing.


Assetto Corsa
Really quite excellent overall, with only a couple of very minor issues.

Assetto Corsa provides a great range of tactile feedback across a wide range of differing areas and does them all very, very well. The feedback you get from the engine varies well with the changes in load and speed, letting you know exactly what is going on with it in regard to revs. Making it a great experience and one that gives you great variation from car to car and engine to engine. The transmission also communicates well via the tactile feedback as well, giving you the appropriate shunt when you change up or down in higher torque cars, particularly the race cars which you would expect being fitted with dog boxes

Track surface detail comes through well, with curbs and rumble strips providing the feedback you would expect, with changes to the feedback occurring as you gain and lose grip while cornering. Which again adds an extra element of sensory input making the experience more immersive and communicating what is going on with the car to you. Certainly its proven useful in terms of knowing when a car is about to let go and in catching it.

Going off track also throws more feedback at you as you would expect when you start travelling across grass at speed or hit a gravel trap, again adding that extra element of immersion to the experience.

Now the minor issues. The first is that collisions with other cars are weak in terms of a tactile experience, a minor point, but it would have been a nice to have. On a slightly more problematic note is that the engine dominates the whole experience, to the degree that its unbalanced and it needed the engine turning down in the audio balance to get a more balanced experience. As well as being overly dominant in the mix, the engine is also too present on the lower level road cars. I've driven an Abarth 500, Mito and Guilietta and the engine is slightly too dominant in terms of feel in these cars, however it does seem to be an issue related to only a small number of cars currently.

However these are minor factors in what is overall an excellent package in terms of a tactile experience and takes an already excellent sim to another level.


Project Cars
Ok so adding tactile is quite frankly a mind-blowingly good addition to the title.

Project Cars tactile experience come across ridiculously well, with all of the elements covered by Assetto Corsa all present and correct. So engine feedback and drive-train 'shunts' doing exactly what you would expect them to do and providing a very detailed experience, but also a well-balanced one as well.

It’s the same story with regard to track surface detail, curbs and rumble strips; as well as heading off track and onto the grass and gravel traps. These all provide detailed and balance feedback.

What however moves Project Cars up a notch for me is just how well balanced these elements are and how well they complement each other as a total experience. What is done extremely well is how they reflect the individual cars, with the feedback from heavily track focused vehicles such as open-wheel models as direct and visceral as you would expect. Yet when you move to a road car you can feel the change to something that has been developed with 'driver comfort' as a factor.

As an example if you take the Audi A1 around Brands Hatch GP the engine feedback feels like its 'damped' as you would expect from a road car, the drive-train is more 'cultured' and most impressively if you kill the engine and just coast downhill you get very minimal feedback from the track surface, as you would expect from a car with suspension developed for the road. Yet if you ride over the rumble strips you still get the feedback you would expect.

Now repeating this experiment with the Radical SR3 you get a totally different experience, with the engine and transmission being unfiltered and raw, much more 'present' as an experience. While the suspension on a down-hill coast provides detailed and communicative feedback, being constantly active, both from the track surface, rumble strips and curbs.

The end result is a very balanced tactile experience that does everything that Assetto Corsa does and adds in a slightly better balance of the different parts of the tactile experience and a better match of feedback to the car.

To date, taking the SR3 around the 'ring, with the HUD switched off, helmet cam on and the tactile added to my rig is quite frankly the single most immersive experience I've had on a sim to date.


F1 2016
F1 2016 is another title that is a tale of two parts, in that way it is similar to WRC 6. Thankfully however that is the start and end of the similarities.

What F1 2016 does well is in regard to the tactile feedback from the engine, giving good feedback from all elements of the drive-train, both engine and transmission. You get a real feeling of what the engine is doing and when you need to shift as a result, and a good thump as you go up and down the gears, providing a great feeling of immersion from the car itself.

The other half however is the feedback from the track surface, which is unfortunately very limited until you head off track or ride the curbs, now while it's great to know when you are on or over the track limits, it would be great to actually have more detailed feel from the track itself when you are on it.

It did come as a surprise as F1 2016 is one of the few titles to allow you to push a high-range audio feed to an AV receiver, which should result in a much more details soundscape and theoretically a more detailed tactile experience.

Now in isolation F1 2016 is not bad, it certainly does nothing 'wrong', but in comparison to the experience you can get from the F1 cars in both Assetto Corsa and Project Cars simply not doing anything wrong isn’t enough to impress to the same level. That said it still adds more than enough of an experience, and ups the level of immersion in a very enjoyable way.


Driveclub
So onto the final title in this review and the second arcade biased title, the other being WRC 6, fortunately like F1 2016 that's the only thing it has in common with WRC 6 and in many ways Driveclub is a lot like F1 2016 in terms of how it deals with tactile feedback. In that the engine feedback dominates the situation and the road surface provides very little until you exceed the track or road limits.

Now to a degree I am willing to give Driveclub some slack in this regard given its almost pure arcade credentials and as with F1 2016 it's not really doing anything wrong and as a package it adds to the overall experience and immersion in a very meaningful way.

What it does, it does well, with the engine feeling very visceral and the likes of the AMG C63 Black feeling like it has a beast of an engine as it should. It also gets a nod in terms of audio options, as it provides a great range in terms of set-up and levels and even allows you to use external audio with an in-car view.


Wrapping Up
So in conclusion the kit itself is well made, a good package with everything I needed to get started with my set-up, it added an extra layer of immersion to every title I tried, with only one being a disappointment (and to be honest that one didn't surprise me at all) and the job that has been done with Project Cars, Assetto Corsa and Dirt in particular in terms of how well audio transfers into a tactile experience is stunning.

It's certainly something I would recommend looking into and giving a go if you are looking to add that next layer of immersion, feedback (and as a result control) to your rig.
 
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Thanks for the review and great job! I've been thinking about how to add tactile to the Playseat Challenge and I think I will go this route. Interesting point about the changing of the angle resulting in changing the effect of the shaker. My Aura's never came with a mounting bracket and so I assume changing the angle is almost impossible without one. It seems like the kit (w/mount and isolators) might be the best option. Are you still able to fold the Challenge normally with the added bar and tactile?
 
Thanks for the review and great job! I've been thinking about how to add tactile to the Playseat Challenge and I think I will go this route. Interesting point about the changing of the angle resulting in changing the effect of the shaker. My Aura's never came with a mounting bracket and so I assume changing the angle is almost impossible without one. It seems like the kit (w/mount and isolators) might be the best option. Are you still able to fold the Challenge normally with the added bar and tactile?
Yep, angle makes quite a difference. It also still folds perfectly well, it's actually a bit more stable when folded as well, due to the extra weight lower down.
 
Thanks for the review and great job! I've been thinking about how to add tactile to the Playseat Challenge and I think I will go this route. Interesting point about the changing of the angle resulting in changing the effect of the shaker. My Aura's never came with a mounting bracket and so I assume changing the angle is almost impossible without one. It seems like the kit (w/mount and isolators) might be the best option. Are you still able to fold the Challenge normally with the added bar and tactile?
Here you go, my rig in place and folded up, as you can see the shaker doesn't cause any issues when folded.

IMG_20170122_233008.jpg


IMG_20170122_235200.jpg
 
Very nice! I see you've also managed to attach a TH8A. I've been looking for similar mounting brackets and the only ones I've found are in the UK (ADX/Aura and the BS-200), and the shipping is almost 3x the cost of the bracket, so I may have to get creative with the mounting situation.
 
Very nice! I see you've also managed to attach a TH8A. I've been looking for similar mounting brackets and the only ones I've found are in the UK (ADX/Aura and the BS-200), and the shipping is almost 3x the cost of the bracket, so I may have to get creative with the mounting situation.
I used a Garmin RAM mount for attaching satnavs to motorbikes to mount the TH8A.

I will dig out the details a bit later for you.
 
Here we go, this is the RAM kit I used to mount the shifter.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000S7ZGP4/?tag=gtplanetuk-20

I did need to drill out the holes on the flat plate of the mount to make them a little wider for the shifter to mount on it, however the end result is very adjustable and rock solid.


Well done! With the shifter mount and tactile added, you've fixed my only two issues with the Challenge. That's now a proper rig that still folds away! Thanks again for the help and inspiration.

It looks like this guy has done something similar regarding his shifter.
 
What a brilliant review @Scaff ! A clear write up, excellent photos and video. I am amazed and impressed that a tactile system could work so well with that type of seat rig.

Just a suggestion - I would be interested in a comparison between the effectiveness of the system as you currently have it (i.e. splitting the .1 subwoofer output) versus using the full range stereo signal.

I haven't connected tactile to my PS4 yet, but on the PS3 I have the optical cable feeding the sound system, the HDMI feeding the TV and the scart to three RCA lead, which came with the PS3, connected to a subwoofer amp which powers a tactile transducer (The PS3 is set to multi-out so that signal is sent to all outputs simultaneously). My sound system doesn't have a separate .1 subwoofer output as it is a lower end system. Using the full range signal gives the option of stereo tactile - I used to use this on GT5 and it was good for giving direction to kerb strikes and car collisions, but often the vibration feedback from other cars was stronger than from my own car. I found that only certain cars in GT5 and 6 provided good engine feedback.

You have inspired me to get setup with my PS4 and Project Cars and start experimenting again!
 
What a brilliant review @Scaff ! A clear write up, excellent photos and video. I am amazed and impressed that a tactile system could work so well with that type of seat rig.
The isolators were the key, as they stop almost all vibration leak to the ground, and the Challenge is actually very rigid once your sat in it (the design in that regard is actually very clever).


Just a suggestion - I would be interested in a comparison between the effectiveness of the system as you currently have it (i.e. splitting the .1 subwoofer output) versus using the full range stereo signal.
The only advantage I would gain with my AV receiver would be stereo (which I am looking for in future), the actual; frequency range would not change as I get the same frequency output from all channels.



I haven't connected tactile to my PS4 yet, but on the PS3 I have the optical cable feeding the sound system, the HDMI feeding the TV and the scart to three RCA lead, which came with the PS3, connected to a subwoofer amp which powers a tactile transducer (The PS3 is set to multi-out so that signal is sent to all outputs simultaneously). My sound system doesn't have a separate .1 subwoofer output as it is a lower end system. Using the full range signal gives the option of stereo tactile - I used to use this on GT5 and it was good for giving direction to kerb strikes and car collisions, but often the vibration feedback from other cars was stronger than from my own car. I found that only certain cars in GT5 and 6 provided good engine feedback.
You can output from both still on the PS4, while I don't need to do it for the tactile (as the HDMI to my AV receiver takes care of that), I do use the optical output for my headset (Turtle Beach 520's) and output to both at the same time.

You have inspired me to get setup with my PS4 and Project Cars and start experimenting again!
:cheers:
 
Very useful review, particularly with such detailed notes on each game, thanks :)

So now I'm thinking about adding a stereo pair of these to my DIY rig built onto an Ikea Poang chair... being bouncy, it might vibrate quite well! Plan A is to mount them on wood plates which would mount under each side of the seat, sticking out a little at the back to avoid the dip of the fabric part of the seat. If that fails to work well due to not being close enough or rigid enough, I might shell out for the post mounts and try them (without the clamp, just bolted to the chair frame).

@Scaff - please could you measure the spacing of the clamp bolts for me? I'm guessing about 60mm between centres, since they say it can clamp up to a 55mm post with longer bolts... are those bolts M5 or M6?
 
Really nice coverage with this review and of the games too. I think entering tactile for the first time is always rather exciting and this you bring across. Don't let anyone come and say "Audio Tactile" isn't fun on Consoles/PC or that Simvibe is an absolute must to enjoy such.

Both options with PC feature their own benefits and drawbacks.
Just today with my own tuning and config I have been comparing them but I use both together :)

This review did take me back 5 years to what some of us were experiencing with GT5 Prologue.
Some of us have come a long way since then regards tactile hardware and configurations.

Yet its always nice to see new people get started with it and enjoying what it offers.
Well done @Scaff and err hello @ELCID43

 
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I recognize that corner :D Those grandstands up ahead look like wireless strength bars that say SLOW DOWN to third then into second at the hairpin apex to weigh the front :D I love Barcelona.

Nice review Scaff. I agree that tactile is great even with one shaker and game audio. Puts a smile on your face and is useful.
 
Very useful review, particularly with such detailed notes on each game, thanks :)

So now I'm thinking about adding a stereo pair of these to my DIY rig built onto an Ikea Poang chair... being bouncy, it might vibrate quite well! Plan A is to mount them on wood plates which would mount under each side of the seat, sticking out a little at the back to avoid the dip of the fabric part of the seat. If that fails to work well due to not being close enough or rigid enough, I might shell out for the post mounts and try them (without the clamp, just bolted to the chair frame).

@Scaff - please could you measure the spacing of the clamp bolts for me? I'm guessing about 60mm between centres, since they say it can clamp up to a 55mm post with longer bolts... are those bolts M5 or M6?

Hi Outspacer - I've done quite a lot of experimenting with tactile effects including a stereo system on PS3. My findings are that the effects do not travel as well through wood as through metal. For example even with 4 shakers on a wood framed seat I got less effect than with 1 on a metal framed seat.

True stereo effects are difficult to achieve with tactile, particularly with wooden rigs or seats - this is because each effect needs to be isolated from the other. If you fit 2 shakers one either side of a wood chair and feed each with a different signal (e.g. L and R) you feel about 30% of the Left effect on the right of the chair - this is because the vibration travels through the structure of the chair. I would recommend people with a wooden chair or rig to use a mono system.

If the seat is bouncy (presumably from padding) it will not transmit a good tactile effect into the body. The strongest effects come when the shaker unit is mounted directly onto a hard seat which has no upholstery.

@Scaff has done a great review and shown that a good effect can be produced with a different sort of chair - one with a metal frame and cloth seat - His chair seems to be very well suited to the transmission of tactile effects and is even getting a good effect to the pedal and shifter areas. Normally with a wooden rig either a lot of shakers or more power and bigger shakers are needed to get a good effect plus additional shaker units in the pedal and shifter area. If you achieve a good tactile effect in the seat area, but none in the pedal area the effect is quite odd and can be distracting - in a normal car the vibration is normally spread with more in the pedal area.
 
Hi Outspacer - I've done quite a lot of experimenting with tactile effects including a stereo system on PS3. My findings are that the effects do not travel as well through wood as through metal. For example even with 4 shakers on a wood framed seat I got less effect than with 1 on a metal framed seat.

True stereo effects are difficult to achieve with tactile, particularly with wooden rigs or seats - this is because each effect needs to be isolated from the other. If you fit 2 shakers one either side of a wood chair and feed each with a different signal (e.g. L and R) you feel about 30% of the Left effect on the right of the chair - this is because the vibration travels through the structure of the chair. I would recommend people with a wooden chair or rig to use a mono system.

If the seat is bouncy (presumably from padding) it will not transmit a good tactile effect into the body. The strongest effects come when the shaker unit is mounted directly onto a hard seat which has no upholstery.

@Scaff has done a great review and shown that a good effect can be produced with a different sort of chair - one with a metal frame and cloth seat - His chair seems to be very well suited to the transmission of tactile effects and is even getting a good effect to the pedal and shifter areas. Normally with a wooden rig either a lot of shakers or more power and bigger shakers are needed to get a good effect plus additional shaker units in the pedal and shifter area. If you achieve a good tactile effect in the seat area, but none in the pedal area the effect is quite odd and can be distracting - in a normal car the vibration is normally spread with more in the pedal area.

For a typical wooden chair with four legs etc I'll take your word for it. However, this is a Poang frame:

poang_frame.png


The inner frame is very lightweight, and the bounce comes from it only having two legs, not from thick padding. In fact, the cushion (not shown) is quite thin. The inner seat frame is kind of suspended from the thicker leg frame, further decoupling it from the floor.

Here's where I've fixed the shakers - somewhat limited in choice because of all the curviness...

BS_fitted_left.jpg


BS_fitted_rear.jpg


On a thick rug over carpet, it doesn't even seem to want further isolation. On thin carpet alone it would. Obviously the major downside of drilling wood is not being able to experiment with positioning, but I'm finding about 1/4 volume on a 130W per channel amp plenty so I'm not too worried if it could be a little better.

Mainly I'm getting the vibes through my back, I guess due to the cross slats. My butt on the fabric seat doesn't feel as much. My wheel (mounted on the bits you can see tacked onto the front of the seat) rattles unless my hands are on it, when sweeping a test tone through 60 to 70 Hz.

Yes, I've already started pondering on whether to do my pedals as well, since they're on a separate frame. It would be a no-brainer if the AV amp I'm using could handle 4 ohms on channels other than the main L-R, then I'd just be adding one BS-200. The cheapest route would be to add two shakers to it. Another issue is that my pedal frame is pushed hard against the wall to stop it moving around - isolating that point would let it move a bit. Edit: it's quite big, rigid, and relatively heavy:

Poang_pedals.jpg


Stereo is a mixed bag. I've really only tried it with Assetto. Singular thumps are quite good, easy to tell which side. Taking one side onto the grass is also OK. Curbs are less distinct, which is a shame. Overall though it seems worth it and I wouldn't change to mono. After all, you don't get great separation in a real car, and in a road car your perception is helped by being on one side.

Pretty happy with it for the £100 or so I spent; immersion is definitely increased :)
 
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@ Sick Cylinder

Just to pick up on some of the good points you raised. What you were saying regards stereo presentation and tactile has another factor. This also can very much depend on the game.

From memory, I moaned about the lack of true "stereo tactile" from P Cars and that Forza 6 was producing nicer feel from left/right curbs.

What you may find is that in some cases driving with two left wheels over a left curb or grass will also result in audio coming out of the right channels. You can even test this with headphones. Some titles may deliver a proportion of the audio for such effects on the opposite channel as I assume some form of channel blending. May just be down to the game audio engineer who signs off the master mix used but it is relevant.

Regards wood, yes soft or compressed man-made woods can absorb tactile more than natural hardwoods and indeed metals like steel or aluminium (alum i num to you Americans :)) often works well. Units on wood with close proximity should still work pretty decent though. I find my feet are more sensitive to detecting L/R effects and if you guys end up going into 4 or more units surround tactile you may find dual A/B stereo produces better sensation of stereo tactile than say using Dolby or other decoding. Both are good options though to have.

Oh btw a decent old school AV amp should deliver 4ohm into multiple channels, easily 5 if using units like Basspump, Aura, ADX, Reckhorn, Dayton BS1 etc. Buttkickers are much more harder to drive. The problem these days finding new 4ohm rated AV amps is very limited.

Marantz however do have a (NR) slim series for the last few years that still support 4ohm loads with approx 50 wpc. (Previous models are also on good discounts). Denon I believe also have a model that will but models like Yamaha/Pioneer/Onkyo all seem to have moved to using 6ohm upwards and it is not recommend to use 4ohm tactile on these.
 
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@Outspacer That's a really neat installation. Is the centre part of the seat made of cloth? What ohm is each channel of the amp rated at?

@Mr Latte Nice to hear from you again - I have only recently got Project Cars and haven't started experimenting with tactile effects with it yet - currently spending all my spare time enjoying the game.
 
For a typical wooden chair with four legs etc I'll take your word for it. However, this is a Poang frame:

View attachment 625537

The inner frame is very lightweight, and the bounce comes from it only having two legs, not from thick padding. In fact, the cushion (not shown) is quite thin. The inner seat frame is kind of suspended from the thicker leg frame, further decoupling it from the floor.

Here's where I've fixed the shakers - somewhat limited in choice because of all the curviness...

View attachment 625544

View attachment 625538

On a thick rug over carpet, it doesn't even seem to want further isolation. On thin carpet alone it would. Obviously the major downside of drilling wood is not being able to experiment with positioning, but I'm finding about 1/4 volume on a 130W per channel amp plenty so I'm not too worried if it could be a little better.

Mainly I'm getting the vibes through my back, I guess due to the cross slats. My butt on the fabric seat doesn't feel as much. My wheel (mounted on the bits you can see tacked onto the front of the seat) rattles unless my hands are on it, when sweeping a test tone through 60 to 70 Hz.

Yes, I've already started pondering on whether to do my pedals as well, since they're on a separate frame. It would be a no-brainer if the AV amp I'm using could handle 4 ohms on channels other than the main L-R, then I'd just be adding one BS-200. The cheapest route would be to add two shakers to it. Another issue is that my pedal frame is pushed hard against the wall to stop it moving around - isolating that point would let it move a bit. Edit: it's quite big, rigid, and relatively heavy:

View attachment 625562

Stereo is a mixed bag. I've really only tried it with Assetto. Singular thumps are quite good, easy to tell which side. Taking one side onto the grass is also OK. Curbs are less distinct, which is a shame. Overall though it seems worth it and I wouldn't change to mono. After all, you don't get great separation in a real car, and in a road car your perception is helped by being on one side.

Pretty happy with it for the £100 or so I spent; immersion is definitely increased :)
I would still recommend giving isolators a go, my rig sits on a thick rug over carpet as well, isolators made a huge difference for me.
 
@Outspacer That's a really neat installation. Is the centre part of the seat made of cloth? What ohm is each channel of the amp rated at?

Thanks! Jigsaw FTW :)

Yes, cloth seat.

With the selector at low impedance, the main L/R can be as low as 4 ohm, but the other channels' minimum is 6 ohm. So if I did the pedals, I'd probably add two shakers L/R in series with the ones on the seat, making it 8 ohm per side. I'd still just be using the main L/R channels.

BTW, I forgot to say, I'm using a passive stereo subwoofer crossover - I think you posted about it in the tactile info thread - thanks for that!
 
Thanks! Jigsaw FTW :)

Yes, cloth seat.

With the selector at low impedance, the main L/R can be as low as 4 ohm, but the other channels' minimum is 6 ohm. So if I did the pedals, I'd probably add two shakers L/R in series with the ones on the seat, making it 8 ohm per side. I'd still just be using the main L/R channels.

BTW, I forgot to say, I'm using a passive stereo subwoofer crossover - I think you posted about it in the tactile info thread - thanks for that!

It takes more power to get a good tactile effect in the seat area - one shaker might be enough for your pedal arrangement. A couple of rubber door stops (1 inch round ones) would isolate the ends of your wooden frame. You can also get rubber mats from pound land to isolate the wooden frame from the carpet. I've used Sinus Live Bass Pump 3 shakers from Conrad which are 50 W RMS and are available in a 4 or 8 ohm version. They are not as good as Aura Pro's at transmitting thumps / kerb strikes, but they are very effective at transmitting engine vibration and general road imperfections (I posted a comparison review of these shakers on GT Planet a few years back). You might be able to use 1 Bass Pump 3 8 ohm shaker for your pedals.

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/Search.html?search=bass+shaker&searchType=mainSearchBar
 
It takes more power to get a good tactile effect in the seat area - one shaker might be enough for your pedal arrangement. A couple of rubber door stops (1 inch round ones) would isolate the ends of your wooden frame. You can also get rubber mats from pound land to isolate the wooden frame from the carpet. I've used Sinus Live Bass Pump 3 shakers from Conrad which are 50 W RMS and are available in a 4 or 8 ohm version. They are not as good as Aura Pro's at transmitting thumps / kerb strikes, but they are very effective at transmitting engine vibration and general road imperfections (I posted a comparison review of these shakers on GT Planet a few years back). You might be able to use 1 Bass Pump 3 8 ohm shaker for your pedals.

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/Search.html?search=bass+shaker&searchType=mainSearchBar

Well now that's quite tempting, since running off another channel I should have at least some control over the relative volumes. It would stop the pedals feeling inert, for sure. Just a shame they're not only 20 quid any more!

Isolation... the Reckhorns I got from Amazon both came with 4 little blocks like @Scaff's kit had. I had tried them briefly before, but thought I'd try them again. So I drove a bit without them to get a reference, then hopped out and put one at each corner. Driving again I thought the vibes felt a tiny bit stronger, but, when I removed them I couldn't tell any difference! If there is any it's very small, but of course that must be particular to this kind of chair.
 
It looks about right to me this is the one I use to split out audio on my PS4 pro https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01M8PC1KI/?tag=gtplanetuk-20.

I run 2 buttkickers at the rear of my rig, and 2 reckhorns, 1 under my bucket seat and another under my pedals too (the reckhorns are using single subwoofer amps, 1 for each)

So for the 2 buttkickers I take 2 audio feeds out of the hdmi splitter, and audio out of the tv headphone out as 2 mono out... and the main feed for the audio amp comes from the optical out on the PS4.

It all feels real when firing together... although I have had one buttkicker amp blow in the past (I think it was faulty to be fair)... but do watch those overdrive warning LEDs!
 
@MarcoM , I'm not sure from the specs given whether the one you linked would convert 5.1 to stereo. @MxFiver has beaten me to mentioning Neoteck - a wide range of things like this and generally more versatile. I used one of their DACs on my PS4 optical out so I could route through a low-pass filter and it worked great. It looks to me like any which have an optical output as well as stereo would be able to convert as well as extract.
 
@MarcoM , I'm not sure from the specs given whether the one you linked would convert 5.1 to stereo. @MxFiver has beaten me to mentioning Neoteck - a wide range of things like this and generally more versatile. I used one of their DACs on my PS4 optical out so I could route through a low-pass filter and it worked great. It looks to me like any which have an optical output as well as stereo would be able to convert as well as extract.

@Outspacer , that is why I linked also the one @MxFiver mentioned. But then from the German Amazon site.

So this one https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01GH4MEYC/ would work right?
 

I think so, but it's hard to be absolutely sure! That it says 5.1 output requires a 5.1 source but doesn't say anything similar about stereo output makes me reasonably confident that it can down-mix 5.1 though.

I'm kind of asuming that you're currently using 5.1 on your hdmi, is that the case?


edit: OTOH, it talks about the switch setting EDID, so maybe it would force stereo on everything?? Then that would need two boxes, one to extract and one to downmix. This one downmixes 5.1 to stereo:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07DVWSWLQ/?tag=gtplanetuk-20
But I would hope they have a box that would do it all in one.
 
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Thanks @MxFiver,

on page 7 of the manual:
https://thebuttkicker.com/content/BK-GR2_QSG.pdf

it says "Do not use both Red AND White Outputs"

How would I do that with the splitter and the provided cable by Buttkicker? Only use the white female tulip plug?

I read about the blowups. I see there is spare fuse in power inlet, right?

Or this one from Amazon.de

https://www.amazon.de/Neoteck-Extractor-Konverter-Verteiler-Adapter-dac-Tiefschwarz/dp/B01GH4MEYC/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1_sspa?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2KG8UDWBVCBYP&keywords=neoteck+hdmi+audio+extractor&qid=1551996061&s=gateway&sprefix=Neoteck+HDMI+Audio+Extractor,aps,212&sr=8-1-fkmrnull-spons&psc=1

?

Yes you would only use one of the white or red plugs or better still would to be combine them with a stereo to mono converter such as this https://shakercentre.co.uk/gaming-simulation/stereo-to-mono-converter.html

In my case I use the both the red and white out, one for the left rear mounted buttkicker 2, the other for the right one (using the relevant left or right channel for that particular buttkicker) to feed each of the two amps (2 buttkickers)

If you have one buttkicker I would combine the red and white audio channels out of the hdmi into a single mono channel with the converter.

And yes there was a spare fuse in the input socket and this also popped with a massive bang too... so the amp had gone to the big amp place in heaven... it was swapped out on warranty by the supplier.
 
i got this cable to Go from two to mono, Just in case.

Buttkicker comes today, splitter next week

But I should be sble to do a test with the ps3

image.jpg
 
Got a reply from Buttkicker:


Hi Marco,

Ideally, you'll want to connect directly to the subwoofer output of the sound system you're using. If you're only using a TV for audio then yes, using the HDMI extractor would work.

You do not want to sum the left and right outputs together with a cable, this is effectively creating a short. And, the majority of bass is going to be on one of the two channels rather than evenly split between them.

Regards,

Andrew Luden



i have it already working on the ps3 , but that is out for the box with the ability to use multiple output for sound.

Glad that i have very stiff racepod. You can feel the rumble everywhere :)
 
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