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Tesla Model 3 General Discussion
- Thread starter CodeRedR51
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Danoff
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I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. The degree to which the car is driven by software (literally and figuratively), and the degree to which that changes the car, is enough for me to say that it's more than that. I wasn't pointing out those features to suggest that any one of them on its own would be profound. It was an illustration of the pervasiveness of their innovation.
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Fair enough. For me it seems more a case of throwing anything and everything at a product and seeing what sticks. Some of it ends up being worthwhile (over the air updates, supercharger networks), others not so much (falcon doors, everything short of turn signals being in a touchscreen).
Technology ultimately has to serve the end user, so I'm not a fan of implementing it for its own sake, and see little innovation in simply including more of those features.
Though again, I wasn't aiming to spur a conversation about technology. I was simply pointing out that heavy, expensive batteries make it easier to fulfil certain criteria with some cars (namely high-end, large, fast sedans) than others (namely affordable, compact sports cars). Taking that back even earlier in the discussion, it's why I'm interested to try the Model 3 (which seems like a step towards affordable, compact sports cars and away from Model S-style 2+ ton barges).
RocZX
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It would be awesome if they made fast electric Miata sized car. The problem is market for the car. A small car 2 seater car has a smaller market then a larger one. To make it small and lightweight it will have short range then less people want it and if they add more batteries for better range it becomes heavier less people want it. It makes it a lose-lose situation.
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Indeed - and more batteries also means more expense. It's something that'll have to wait until battery technology has developed enough for high densities at low prices. I suspect it'll trickle from the top down, as it does with anything else - first we'll get electric supercars, then electric high-performance sports cars, and eventually electric roadsters like the Miata. If driving hasn't been outlawed or something daft by then, at any rate...
Danoff
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I have been finding myself wondering how hard it would be to take just one of tesla's motors and hook it up to the drive shaft of a miata , stick a small-ish EV battery in there, and hook it up to the accelerator pedal. I bet it wouldn't weigh much more given that it's just one engine, and one could keep the battery pretty small.
The problem, at least in this state, is that I'd have to get the emissions checked (no big deal, it would pass). But I need OBDII to work to pass, and that would be basically fried. So ironically, converting a miata to an EV is a no-go because I can't pass emissions.
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Would it depend on the year? I think some early Miatas were pre-OBDII so would presumably only be required to pass whatever test pre-OBDII cars have to take?The problem, at least in this state, is that I'd have to get the emissions checked (no big deal, it would pass). But I need OBDII to work to pass, and that would be basically fried. So ironically, converting a miata to an EV is a no-go because I can't pass emissions.
- 11,327
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I have been finding myself wondering how hard it would be to take just one of tesla's motors and hook it up to the drive shaft of a miata , stick a small-ish EV battery in there, and hook it up to the accelerator pedal. I bet it wouldn't weigh much more given that it's just one engine, and one could keep the battery pretty small.
The problem, at least in this state, is that I'd have to get the emissions checked (no big deal, it would pass). But I need OBDII to work to pass, and that would be basically fried. So ironically, converting a miata to an EV is a no-go because I can't pass emissions.
Regarding point 1, it's been sort-of done:
Regarding point 2, it appears to be not only legal, but you get a tax credit for it!
Alt Fuel Vehicle Tax Credits
- 27,163
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I'm really picky about interiors. Yet another reason I'd love to try the Model 3 is to see how I get along with it - I like the design more than I suspect I'd like some of the execution, and previous experience of a Model S suggests it'll look better than it actually feels, as Tesla hasn't quite worked out how to use materials to best effect yet.
One of my current favourite cabins is the BMW i3.
Whatever you think of the design (I like it, but I can understand why some would be weirded out by it) I've found it works incredibly well - logical choice of controls for their intended purpose, innovative transmission selector (fingertip-reach away behind the steering wheel, a bit like the control pods in old Citroens), and fantastic use of materials. Feels minimalist and airy without feeling empty, and expensive without being flashy - every so often you catch glimpses of the natural wood, or the CFRP chassis. The fibre dash is clever too - it's a material that could look really cheap and nasty, but the texture gives a nice contrast to the other materials. When I last drove one I went on a material hunt. There are a lot, but somehow everything works together:
If Tesla can strike that kind of balance - maintaining the minimalism but ensuring quality is up to scratch and maybe making some concession to ergonomic, physical controls for certain functions - then it could find itself well ahead of anyone else in the industry in that area.
One of my current favourite cabins is the BMW i3.
Whatever you think of the design (I like it, but I can understand why some would be weirded out by it) I've found it works incredibly well - logical choice of controls for their intended purpose, innovative transmission selector (fingertip-reach away behind the steering wheel, a bit like the control pods in old Citroens), and fantastic use of materials. Feels minimalist and airy without feeling empty, and expensive without being flashy - every so often you catch glimpses of the natural wood, or the CFRP chassis. The fibre dash is clever too - it's a material that could look really cheap and nasty, but the texture gives a nice contrast to the other materials. When I last drove one I went on a material hunt. There are a lot, but somehow everything works together:
If Tesla can strike that kind of balance - maintaining the minimalism but ensuring quality is up to scratch and maybe making some concession to ergonomic, physical controls for certain functions - then it could find itself well ahead of anyone else in the industry in that area.
CodeRedR51
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Keef
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If you don't think Tesla is breaking new ground, then you need to start publicly shaming, SHAMING every other car company for dragging their asses for the last 30 years.
GM realized the EV1 was so magnificent that they destroyed most of them for fear of bankrupting the entire automotive supplier and manufacturer industry. After that, all these car manufacturers just continued doing the same thing over and over again. Marginal improvements, a .01 Cd there, a mile per gallon here, there was that 5-10 year episode in the late 2000s where they couldn't figure out how to connect a smartphone to a car, variable ratio steering was a freaking revolution let me tell ya, and somehow BMW still charges $300 for a GPS update with a crappy map.
The reason I'd refer to what Tesla is doing as a revolution is because everything they're doing should've been started 20 years ago by the largest, wealthiest manufacturers on the planet, the ones with the research budgets and the consumer data, etc. Instead, little Tesla is doing it themselves and doing it sell well that all the other companies are embarrassed. Analysts [citation needed] have assumed that Tesla is 3-4 years ahead of other manufacturers in terms of all their technological research, including autonomous tech, and might be 5 years ahead in terms of battery technology - and that's besides the fact that Tesla is making an effort to corner the battery market by building the largest battery factories on the planet. All Elon has to do now is buy the companies that dig batteries out of the ground, and then all the world's manufacturers will be buying batteries from Tesla.
These cars *don't have engines*. It's literally insane. That is a revolution. The rest of the industry is scrambling after seeing how popular Tesla is. The media is dragging them through the dirt at every opportunity. Good news about Tesla is difficult to find, because why would you want to shine a spotlight on something that might convince people to try something new?
You guys had nothing to say about the Semi when I mentioned it the other day. Have you considered how that thing will *revolutionize* the trucking industry? The most innovation that industry has come up with in the last decade are hanging flappy things off trailers and slapping a rubber air dam on the front of a tractor. I think Volvo has nicely shaped mirrors. That's about it. The Semi is going to catch the diesel trucking industry with their pants down and it'll be so much better at everything that literally the only reason to buy anything else will be cost. That's a big reason, true, but when a product with such long-term cost savings is available, business will sacrifice $25k up front to save money 5-10 years down the road (after which amount of time the Tesla will have required only basic maintenance while comparable diesels will have suffered downtime several times).
Tesla's revolution isn't about touch screens or minimalist dashboards or fantastical (off-putting) design. It's about realizing that somebody has finally made the electric car possible, 20 years after it should have been. No more gas stations, no more fuel smell, no more stepping in oil, no more attendants who don't speak English, no more bathrooms that haven't been cleaned in a week, no more sitting at a stop light wondering how much gas you're wasting, no more smacking the auto start/stop button because the rough launch is actually more annoying than wasting gas at a stop light, no more wondering why a better way hasn't been invented yet. You don't even have to squeeze through your garage and carefully open your door because you can summon the car to you while you stand in the driveway. That's crazy. Nobody offers any of that in such an upscale package with such thoughtful benefits, like Superchargers that charge your car literally while you eat lunch and take a piss during a road trip. Their revolution is about absolute efficiency and not wasting anything. Tesla is so far ahead of the game that I'm now unsure if any other company gives a white dog turd about efficiency.
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First RWB car I've been genuinely interested in. Having spent some time with EV West they're the first place I'd go to if I wanted anything converted to electric power.
You don't follow me on Twitter do you...
As for the rest of it, you'll just have to wait and see. Several global OEMs are working with a company that has even more advanced technology than Tesla - Rimac. They're just not rushing their products to market like Tesla has.
With regards to semis etc, I'd rather not get too hyped-up on Tesla kool-aid until the things are actually on the road.
Danoff
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Yup... that. Actually as EVs become cheaper, I wonder how much this will be a thing. Conversions of older chassis could be a phenomenal market.
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If I had the money I'd jump right on it. Driven a 1960s Bug with electric power, and ridden in EV West's Baja Bug and split-window van (both of which make 200+ horsepower...) and Pikes Peak M3 (400-ish horsepower). The mix of classic styling and modern, reliable performance is hugely appealing.
- 11,327
- Marin County
Fully agree on the i3. That thing is a masterclass in industrial design.
What Tesla has done better than anyone else, in at least decades, is that they have captivated ordinary people. People who know nothing about cars, people that don't even own cars, even people who actively dislike cars (and I know a lot of these types living in SF) are enthralled with Tesla. I think that Teslas aren't quite as revolutionary as some people think of them as, but they have projected an image of the future that is palpable. When I see a Model 3 (and I've been seeing them pretty often lately) I do think it looks futuristic, but I don't think it looks especially good...especially from the A-pillar back. It looks like a totally ordinary car from the future...which is actually quite something to achieve. I've sat in one at the Tesla store and played around with the touchscreen (which I kind of loathe). For the most part it's a car I guess. I hope the future is less bland.
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Keef
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Thing singular is already on the road. Pre-orders are still coming in. Some of those companies have been steadily increasing their pre-orders so that increased confidence must be coming from somewhere.
I don't know much about Rimac other than they chose a different path to expansion and profitability than Tesla, and apparently a different goal altogether. Tesla is aiming for self-sustainability and OEM status while Rimac is primarily a supplier. I'd argue that the majority of Tesla's financial issues stem from their self-sustainability goals, while traditional manufacturers aren't risking much financially by partnering with specialty suppliers.
Ultimately, Tesla's goal is to have total control over their own production process which can lead to an immense improvement in efficiency over time. They have spoken time and time again about how suppliers didn't have what they wanted so they developed it themselves. I don't see Rimacs on the road every day, I don't see Rimacs driving on cross-country road trips, I don't see them virtually driving themselves on the freeway, I don't see middle-class families charging them in their garages, and I definitely don't see any of their supply partners creating vehicles which perform as well as the Tesla competition. All of the electric cars recently debuted by traditional manufacturers perform markedly worse than Tesla's offerings in virtually every category, even as cars, technology aside. I mean, what do you mean your car is electric and the battery is in the floor but it doesn't have a frunk? That's like forgetting to put a glovebox in a sedan.
Tesla has created new expectations and traditional manufacturers still aren't meeting those expectations, years after the Model S debuted.
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One of the weird things about hardcore Tesla fans is that they don't even like the idea of other electric cars. It was pretty frustrating reporting on that kinda stuff back in the day (though luckily I've not been involved directly with that world for about four years) because some people were so blinded by Tesla they would instantly dismiss any other company's efforts to produce electric vehicles, be they ultra-efficient and more affordable cars, or high performance ones with range or performance that matched or beat Tesla. That kinda stuff goes beyond being a fan of the product (though most are undoubtedly that too) and into the realms of being a Musk personality cult.
- 11,327
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I've seen this too. I think many of Musk/Tesla's fans could imagine no better future than one with every car on earth being a Tesla, with all 5 boring-ass shades of paint they offer.
Keef
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Tesla offers cars, not niche products, and they've also got the infrastructure to support them in a car-like way. Nobody else offers that. You can save money with a Volt, but you can't go as far or as fast and it won't charge as quickly. You can save a ton of money with a leaf, but I don't have room in my garage for a niche grocery-getter than I can only drive in particular circumstances. I can get better quality luxury in the new Jag or Audi, but again they're just not as useable as anything Tesla offers.
The Tesla owners and fans I know really, truly want electric cars from all manufacturers to be successful. We're all hoping for a quieter, cleaner, more peaceful driving future. We really want dinosaur industries to change, and change now. The whole world needs electric cars and trucks to be successful and widespread. It's not our fault that Tesla is doing it leagues better than anybody else right now, and they're being rewarded for it. That probably won't always be the case, as is the nature of competition.
Danoff
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I've not been all the interested in EVs so far. The Tesla roadster was a novelty. The leaf range is not great (and it's slow, and ugly). I don't really care for the BMW i3 or i8 either (ugly, range). The model S was the first EV I've ever seen that I actually kinda wanted. It's sexy, it's fast, and it's practical. But it was so ungodly expensive, and I was really concerned about the reliability.
I was ready to blow off the model 3 as not as good looking as the S, and slower, and probably unreliable. But then the performance version came out, and the model S reliability is starting to get documented, and I realized I was looking at the first EV that I could honestly really picture myself buying.
I was ready to blow off the model 3 as not as good looking as the S, and slower, and probably unreliable. But then the performance version came out, and the model S reliability is starting to get documented, and I realized I was looking at the first EV that I could honestly really picture myself buying.
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What about the iPace? Cheaper than the Model X, similar range, similar silhouette, probably better quality in terms of fit & finish. I've read articles where it compares favorably.
I'll give Tesla a lot of credit for its commitment to building infrastructure. To me, this is their single most revolutionary move. I do not recall any auto maker ever actively building infrastructure to support their customer base. Will they always remain Tesla-only? In the electric future, will every manufacturer have it's own charging network? That seems spatially inefficient. Will there become a standardized fast-charge system? Will regulators force Tesla to open-source their network? Can we get some damn in-route inductive charging going?
- 12,389
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- Beeblebrox_237
In this way Tesla, to me, is much more a tech company than a car company. They've poached many engineers from Apple, and it shows in how their image is very Apple-like. Oddly, though Tesla's biggest turn-off for me is similar to so many other cars with niche followings: the fanbase/customers/community. The people who feel Musk and Tesla can do no wrong rub me the wrong way in the same way the fanatic fans of, say, mid-'90s Hondas do. They seem childish and really don't strike me as car enthusiasts, but more like brand enthusiasts who want to belong to group of like-minded individuals (don't we all, though?). Yes, those fans are not representative of all Tesla owners, but they're common enough to have a negative impact on the brand image in the exact same way that Apple fans have a negative impact on Apple's image. Both brands still have excellent images because they're fundamentally very similar in their marketing: make a product that breaks little new ground but appeal perfectly to their target demographic, and make their product generally well executed enough to compete with nearly everything else in the market segment, price notwithstanding. They're both masterful marketing companies who do good engineering, but I agree with hfs that they aren't as ground-breaking as they're made out to be from a technical standpoint.
Where they did break new ground and excelled was from a business standpoint, and I don't think they get enough credit for it. They're currently not billed as a great investment due to the fact that they have yet to consistently turn a profit, but it hasn't stopped them from obtaining billions in funding from a variety of sources. They started out where no other electric brand had: by building a truly premium, niche product designed as a toy for the wealthy. They knew exactly who they should sell to in a way no electric car company that I know of did, and they executed the car with a combination of competent engineering/production to deliver on their promises and a brilliant marketing campaign which made sure everyone knew about the car. They built their brand image and reputation in a very rapid and effective way, and used that to fund the development of much more mainstream models, rather than trying to build a car that appealed to the mass market and failing through lack of sales/funding/quality/[insert reason for failure here]. They've continued to market the company brilliantly despite pedo-man's best efforts to undermine his image (insider trading, anyone?), and continued to be able to brush off fairly serious delays and quality problems, as well as public scandals which would have rocked many other more established businesses. They've not been perfect, of course, but the fanaticism of their fans and the respect and sometimes ill-placed admiration average people have for the brand and the products is a testament to how well the company has marketed themselves.
Danoff
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Is this just a backlash to the rabid fan-base or do you not think they've actually achieved much? Because honestly, Tesla's work has been groundbreaking, there's almost no question. If you're saying it's not as much as it's made out to be because some people act like they invented the EV, well... yea I agree. But I don't know why we have to take those people and their claims into account when assessing what Tesla has done.
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I think the reality is somewhere in the middle.
As I've mentioned a few times, Tesla has done some things very well. Importantly, one of those things is make good cars, which is kinda what this business is all about. It's developed a network that has built upon the long range of the cars and allowed them to go even further, which is great, though like @Eunos_Cosmo I'm interested to see where that concept leads, because at some point when EVs are widespread enough it's going to seem quite insular having a charging network that works with one brand alone.
Tesla has also popularised the very concept of EVs (mainly by making them fast, and fast will always sell) which has shown larger OEMs that there's a market out there for those products, and it's shown that a lot is possible with software (over the air updates, autopilot etc).
I still don't think the hardware is particularly innovative - it is, when it boils down to it, a large alloy/steel unibody car whose range and performance are primarily a function of being big enough to cram in a large battery and powerful motors, rather than a result of clever engineering (offering such a car in the first place is the novel part, the car itself less so). The products do have faults (in part due to Tesla lacking the production experience of most automakers), and the touchscreen concept leaves something to be desired when you're actually driving the car yourself (though I imagine it was developed with not really driving yourself in mind - I could see Tesla becoming an exclusively autonomous company at some point in the future, at which point why not go nuts with touchscreens?).
And while Keef is still banging on about the semi, having one prototype out there looking pretty and a bunch of names on a piece of paper isn't yet proof of concept. I would love haulage transport to go electric (I'd love it off the roads and onto the rails even more, but that's a different argument entirely), but given Tesla is at breaking point attempting to sell $50k sedans, I just think we need to tone down our expectations for a semi or pickup or Roadster or any of the other things Tesla is taking deposits for but may not actually exist for several more years.
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
I honestly don't think they've achieved that much from a technical standpoint. They've taken several business models and pieced them together but I don't think technically what they've done is as impressive as you're suggesting. What they've done with software is simply taken the software from the tech world and put it into cars. The thinking behind it is excellent but I don't see it as exceptionally ground-breaking from a technical standpoint, but I do see it as groundbreaking from a strategy and business standpoint. As hfs has already said, the hardware isn't very groundbreaking at all, it's just in a different size of package than most other EVs, which has allowed longer range simply through larger batteries and higher performance via larger motors without reducing range too much due to those big batteries. Like Apple, what they've done is take a variety of existing technologies and combine them into a sexy package. The end result isn't cutting edge tech even if it is impressive. As I said, I don't think they've achieved a huge amount technically, but I see them as a hugely impressive and successful business who have managed to intersect two quite different industries.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
Before EV's can ever be a succes, the infrastructure for charging needs to improve a lot. I drive a PHEV myself and the options for charging are still limited. You really need to change your route and driving dramatically to go from point A to B. Even though my country has been a fronrunner in electric driving from the get go. It is still far from practical in most cases for the average car owner. I am happy I still have a combustion engine and can refuel at convenient locations in a few minutes.
If I decide to drive electric as much as possible It would require me to drive far less efficient routes to go to a charging point at my destination. Most of the time the charging ports are taken by cars who "park" their cars. It would be much better if cars that are fully charged could automatically be unlocked to be removed, for other EV's to charge in urban area's. More annoying is when ev's or even regular cars park in these areas.
In suburbs public charging stations are always used as personal parking area's for people who live nearby and have phev or ev's. I live in an appartment and have no personal parking space or runway and so I am limited to these public charging stations that are always taken 9 out of 10 times when I come home.
If I decide to drive electric as much as possible It would require me to drive far less efficient routes to go to a charging point at my destination. Most of the time the charging ports are taken by cars who "park" their cars. It would be much better if cars that are fully charged could automatically be unlocked to be removed, for other EV's to charge in urban area's. More annoying is when ev's or even regular cars park in these areas.
In suburbs public charging stations are always used as personal parking area's for people who live nearby and have phev or ev's. I live in an appartment and have no personal parking space or runway and so I am limited to these public charging stations that are always taken 9 out of 10 times when I come home.
- 11,327
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Yeah an electric car for me is not feasible at the moment. Got a hard no from my property manager about charging....shame, because i3's are stupidly cheap and prevalent around here.
Danoff
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I don't really want to do another lap around this one. Here's a link for your enjoyment: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-Tesla-Motors-major-innovations
I don't see innovation the way you guys seem to see it. I'm an engineer by training, and I've done my share of innovating and implementing. The real work is in the idea to do it. That's the hard part. You can get a room full of engineers together and they won't come up with that one brilliant spark that makes everything happen. But once they have it, that room full of engineers can go implement the hell out of it. And you could ditch the entire room, and fill them with another room of engineers, and that room could go implement it. It's the idea to do it in the first place that is the hard part. Some of my greatest moments as an engineer were literal moments... just a few seconds of thought that pivoted an army of engineers to greater success.
What's wonderful about Tesla (and don't get me wrong, I don't own one, I'm not buying one, and I don't even know if the company will survive or even if it should), is that is has had so many of those sparks, whether with batteries, charging, software, autonomous driving, speed, or just quirky door handles.
"We could sell an EV for $100k" - you're crazy
That's the whole start of it really.
- 12,389
- Betelgeuse
- Beeblebrox_237
Exactly. But for me that's not an engineering decision, that's a business decision. And it was a stroke of genius.
Generally, from a technical standpoint, I view Tesla as having implemented ideas that were already partly conceived or tried before. I'm sure Tesla was not the first company to think of putting a large battery into a car to give it more range. They were just the first to do it, which while still impressive, is not to me a groundbreaking technological breakthrough.
