Tesla Motors to build truck based on F-Series

[homeforsummer]

It's unusual given Tesla's relationship with Toyota that he was angling at the F-150 at all. The subtext seems to be "Toyota who? Yeah, we'll build a better truck than them..."

 

[Tornado]

I'd have to assume if Toyota wanted an electric Tundra or whatever, they would just do it themselves though. They certainly have the capability, probably far more than any other regular manufacturer.

 

[Murcie_LP640]

I always thought you bought a truck to haul stuff.

This truck for instance...
*snip*

Probably sucks at off-roading unless you modify it, yet is great at doing pretty much everything else you'd need a truck to do, which is why companies still use them even though the S10 has been out of production for close to a decade.

This is pretty much the route the tradesmen/apprentices in Australia go about. Rather than getting an off-roader with a giant fuel bill and capabilities they will never use they go for the Falcon and Commo utes, most of the time with LPG.

 

[Adamgp]

Not so sure this would work.

Electric motors would make plenty of torque, but the weight of the batteries would affect the GCWR. Plus price is likely to be an issue.

While it's not a full electric, the GM's Silverado/Sierra Hybrids were flops. The initial cost over the regular gas model, plus the extra weight of the hybrid system hurt its towing and hauling capability.

 

[homeforsummer]

It'd be interesting actually to compare the weight of a full 4x4 drivetrain, a huge V8 and all its ancillaries against an electric equivalent. Batteries are heavy but the motors and controllers would weigh significantly less than the engine/gearbox/transfer cases/driveshafts/propshaft/exhaust/cooling system/all the other stuff you find in a truck.

It's fair to assume that the Tesla probably won't be an old-school body on frame thing like most of the big pickups either, so the monocoque would weigh less to start with.

I bet the weight difference is smaller than it sounds like it'd be.

I'd have to assume if Toyota wanted an electric Tundra or whatever, they would just do it themselves though. They certainly have the capability, probably far more than any other regular manufacturer.

You'd be surprised. If they had that capability then they wouldn't have teamed up with Tesla for the RAV4 EV.

That, and they seem pretty suspicious of electric cars still. Toyota has invested so much into bog-standard hybrids they've almost walled themselves in as far as making EVs is concerned.

 

[Adamgp]

It'd be interesting actually to compare the weight of a full 4x4 drivetrain, a huge V8 and all its ancillaries against an electric equivalent. Batteries are heavy but the motors and controllers would weigh significantly less than the engine/gearbox/transfer cases/driveshafts/propshaft/exhaust/cooling system/all the other stuff you find in a truck.

It's fair to assume that the Tesla probably won't be an old-school body on frame thing like most of the big pickups either, so the monocoque would weigh less to start with.

I bet the weight difference is smaller than it sounds like it'd be.

While it remains to be seen about the additional weight of an electric truck, I'm guessing it will be quite a bit.

The Ford Focus for example, comes in electric and gas only variants. The electric version weighs ~700lbs more than the gas only version.

Now an F150 sized truck will likely require more batteries and a beefier electric motor so I'm guessing the weight difference to be even greater.

 

[homeforsummer]

But it's also being compared with a much weightier object in the first place. A Focus has a relatively small engine with a relatively small gearbox and relatively small ancillaries. Compare Focus and Focus and you're also comparing two unibody vehicles with no heavy-duty 4WD system.

An electric Tesla pickup and an F-150 are a very different prospect. By its nature, an F-150 has a lot of extra bits and pieces that a Focus doesn't have, all other things being equal. A suitable battery pack in a Focus is a significant proportion of its overall mass. A suitable battery pack in an already-heavy vehicle less so.

I'm not saying the Tesla pickup would be light, but when a base regular cab F-150 with a V8 and 4x4 is already over 5,000 lbs, and a crew cab one another 600 lbs on top of that, model-for-model, there's quite a bit of room for maneuver. Particularly freed from the aforementioned constraints of a ladder chassis. And given that Tesla builds its cars from aluminium rather than slabs of steel.

An extra electric motor for AWD won't make much difference overall - compared to engines they weigh naff-all and a "beefy" electric motor is little different in dimensions and weight to a not-so-beefy one, unless you're scaling up to heavy industry ones.

The batteries are the big unknown, not least because we've no real idea what another five years of development will bring to that sector. Unless Ford has an epiphany and makes its next F-Series out of carbon fibre and aluminum I don't see it getting significantly lighter over the next half decade.

 

[Adamgp]

I used the Focus as an example because it's one of the rare times where an automaker makes a gas and electric version of the same car. One car, 2 different means of power. As I pointed out, the EV version is considerably heavier.

An electric motor may be lighter than a gas engine, the batteries are where the extra weight comes from.

You seem to be under the assumption that Tesla will build a unibody truck. While indeed lighter, it will more than likely further hinder its capabilities as far as towing and payload, making it even harder to compete with the likes of the F-150, Ram, etc. There's a reason none of the major players in the segment have made a full size unibody truck.

Nowhere did I say the F-150 was a lightweight, but Ford supposedly is going to be using aluminum for the next gen F-150 in order to shave a bit of weight off.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Here's a little insight into why Tesla is talking about trucks:
http://calwatchdog.com/2013/05/26/tesla-just-a-tax-funded-government-project/

Tesla’s biggest windfall has been the cash payments it extracts from rival car makers (and their customers), via its sale of zero-emission credits. A number of states including California require that traditional car makers reach certain production quotas of zero-emission vehicles—or to purchase credits if they cannot. Tesla is a main supplier.

A Morgan Stanley MS +0.41% report in April said Tesla made $40.5 million on credits in 2012, and that it could collect $250 million in 2013. Tesla acknowledged in a recent SEC filing that emissions credit sales hit $85 million in 2013′s first quarter alone—15% of its revenue, and the only reason it made a profit.

Take away the credits and Tesla lost $53 million in the first quarter, or $10,000 per car sold. California’s zero-emission credits provided $67.9 million to the company in the first quarter, and the combination of that state’s credits and federal and local incentives can add up to $45,000 per Tesla sold, according to an analysis by the Los Angeles Times.

 

[homeforsummer]

I used the Focus as an example because it's one of the rare times where an automaker makes a gas and electric version of the same car. One car, 2 different means of power. As I pointed out, the EV version is considerably heavier.

An electric motor may be lighter than a gas engine, the batteries are where the extra weight comes from.

I haven't disputed that. But as stated, there's more to a gas truck than just the gas engine.

Unfortunately figures for entire drivetrain weights aren't too forthcoming on the internet as people don't tend to weigh that sort of stuff together, but the figures I can find for a Ford V8 on its own are around the 500 lb mark. And I'm guessing that doesn't include the gearbox, exhaust, cooling system, diffs, propshaft etc. Nor fluids.

A Model S battery, from what I can find, is about 1000 lbs. Which is pretty chuffing heavy, but enough for around 260-300 miles or so in that application. Assuming battery technology doesn't change a jot in the next five years, you could use the same pack and need to find less than 500 lbs of reduction (a low-ball, given that it doesn't include all the things I don't know the weight of above) in the body to make it equal in weight to an F-Series, like-for-like.

You seem to be under the assumption that Tesla will build a unibody truck. While indeed lighter, it will more than likely further hinder its capabilities as far as towing and payload, making it even harder to compete with the likes of the F-150, Ram, etc. There's a reason none of the major players in the segment have made a full size unibody truck.

Oh yeah, it's a complete assumption on my part (as are the calculations above, but I'm using them to illustrate my point), but it would seem very odd to me - given the general company ethos - if they brought out a separate chassis truck.

And you're right, a unibody one probably wouldn't have the towing capacity. But again, you have to question how many F-Series owners (for example) actually use their trucks in exactly that manner. If you were towing a yacht to the lake 800 miles away or dragging a motorhome behind you, you'd probably not choose an electric vehicle in the first place, let alone a unibody one.

But for lighter-duty loads there's no reason to assume something like the Tesla wouldn't be suitable - throwing crap in the back to take to the dump, or going camping for the weekend, or just popping to the grocery store. Even light towing, I'd expect. Let's not try and make out that everyone uses their truck for hauling huge stuff because that certainly isn't the case.

Nowhere did I say the F-150 was a lightweight, but Ford supposedly is going to be using aluminum for the next gen F-150 in order to shave a bit of weight off.

That's interesting - I genuinely didn't know that.