The 2010 Nissan GT-R, now with...

[mustangGT90210]

Absolutely no launch control!

It appears that GT-R owners won't have to worry about voiding their warranties if they use Launch Control -- for the 2010 model year, the car won't come with the feature. Inside Line is quoting a Nissan exec as saying "It's gone. We just don't want to deal with the warranty nightmare anymore. It'll make the 2009 GT-R really special. It'll be the only R35 with launch control."

We've previously reported cases where Nissan GT-R owners have brought their cars to the dealership with transmission trouble only to be told their warranties won't cover it. It turns out that disabling the car's VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) too often, in order to use the Launch Control function, meant Nissan wasn't covering the repairs. The cost to fix/replace the transmission is only $20,000, so you can imagine owners weren't too upset. Apparently the GT-R owner's manual states that damage to the transmission is not covered if it is proven to be the result of using Launch Control with the VDC turned off. In fact, the manual states that the only reason you should turn off VDC is to "rock" the vehicle when stuck in mud or snow. We await Nissan's revised performance numbers.

Thanks for the tip, Mike!

[Source: Inside Line]

 

[bobzombie]

only 20k$ tranny job ... not that bad

 

[niky]

For a tranny replacement, because dealerships won't repair them.

Just when the new ceramic wheel bearings, upgraded clutches and more shockproof transmission fluid* (all aftermarket) were coming online, too.

See, America? You should be ashamed. First you made Ferrari remove it... now Nissan, too...


*I posited this as a theoretical reason for transmission failure... Nissan's line is, the transmission fluid has to be replaced every 1800 miles if any hard driving is done (which doubly invalidates the claim of the one owner on NAGTROC who has actually broken the transmission, and not incurred an electronic fault)... one company actually went to the troouble of analyzing the transmission fluid itself and is experimenting with their own, more robust, fluid, and have shown lower transmission wear... so far.

 

[peeweegary]

Loll thats one way to solve a problem...remove one of the features in a car

 

[Keef]

Sometimes I think these companies just aren't thinking supercar development through very deeply...

"Hey, let's ask these people to ruin their cars so we can say 'No! We're not fixing it!'"

 

[mustangGT90210]

Nissan ain't no supercar company, that's their issue. They just burst on with a technological masterpiece that shouldn't be that fast. You'd think they'd make a stronger transmission for their flagship performance icon, but whatever. If you're gonna put lauch control in, make sure the tranny is strong enough for it. They were just asking for trouble.

Now I wait for some ZR-1 lovers to get here and it'll really be interesting.

 

[buickgnx88]

It's almost like someone dangling a moldy piece of meat in front of a starving person, and when they eat it and get sick, they just laugh and say "you shouldn't have eaten that meat! Now you have to go to the hospital but pay for your own bills!"

 

[Keef]

Not just dangling, but selling and advertising and telling you it's the best meat on the market. You know you want my meat. It's the best meat. I guarantee you'll love this meat, and I'll even repair faults with it that were caused by my own incompetence.

Apparently the car breaking while using a feature purposely included by the manufacturer in order to make the car do something it was designed to do is not a manufacturer defect. I disagree. I think they should stand by their faulty product and replace the transmissions for the customers that they lied to.

 

[Philly]

Nissan built a car that doesn't work. The purpose of a warranty is to cover things that go wrong that aren't supposed to go wrong. They should be covering this defect, unless the car wasn't designed to last, in which case perhaps Nissan should probably indicate that you may be having to buy new $20,000 transmissions every 5,000 miles.

only 20k$ tranny job ... not that bad

Those owners should go buy a VW. Then they'll get the same $20K transmission, and a free car to go along with it.

 

[Dave A]

The problem with all of this is that people are making out that Nissan and the GT-R is the only car or the at least most pronounced of a select few cars where using the cars power can void the warranty. They arn't, car manufacturers have been putting clauses the warranty contracts in for decades to prevent abuse. Just because a car can do something doesn't mean it isn't abuse if you over use that feature. A kitchen knife can be extra sharp to cut bone, that doesn't mean stabbing people in the rib cage isn't abuse of the knife. Using the launch control too many times will break the car and that will happen on any car with launch control, not just the GT-R and hard launching a car without launch control will have the same end result, only your launches will probably be slower.

This isn't something that is happening because Nissan haven't made the car well enough, it's just a simple fact of science. Hard launching a car to it's limit will break the transmission a hell of a lot faster than just fast launches which in turn will break a car a lot faster than regular launches done at low revs. The Ferrari Enzo is a prime culprit, that had launch control. 3 launches and your clutch was fried. Didn't hear any public cries of outrage over that. If I repeatedly do hard launches in my Focus it will break. It's science and it doesn't always take that many launches to strat to do damage.

The only difference this time is that it's the GT-R and the GT-R is a car that tends to devide opinion and because of that all the people who hate the GT-R for whatever reason as logical or plain stupid as that may be have pounced. I agree with the principal that warraties often don't seem fair such as a car built for the track but the warranty says it will be void if you take the car to a track. It doesn't always seem fair, but the bottom line is that this problem of heavy launching breaking the car is not isolated to the GT-R and the warranty issue is not isolated to Nissan. So why is it only now that certain people are creating noise about the issue.

 

[Jim Prower]

That being said, only drag races, or laps from a standing start (Top Gear Power Lap) will be affected.

I do think if Nissan engineers eased up on their tolerances (CAT engineers do this sort of thing all the time) they'd have a more durable tranny, but it wouldn't be as efficient. Granted, I love it for being an incredible engineer's project...but engineers these days tend to do things that aren't...practical.

 

[Stevisiov]

...but engineers these days tend to do things that aren't...practical.

That's wonhelluvan assumption

 

[Keef]

It's not an assumption.

There are reasons the Viper and Corvette have engines from trucks and transmissions that shift Earth's gears. They're tough, and they don't break. You may fry your clutch, yes, but apparently GT-Rs are having actual problems with the new-fangled transmission--not the clutches. The GT-R was engineered very delicately and precisely, whereas the most far fetched technology the Viper has is an electronic throttle. Hennessey will gladly make you a daily drivable--and usable--Viper that cranks out 1100 lb-ft of torque. The old GT-Rs and Supras and whatnot could do that too because they were built strong. But not this one, obviously.

Speaking of which, BMW is recalling M3 double-clutch transmissions. Yes, new products must get broken in. Even the manual transmission had problems when it was new...like, a hundred years ago. But it eventually did just fine. And it still does just fine. And just fine is always good. Make my M3 a six-speed.

 

[DaddyVDUB]

Nissan built a car that doesn't work. The purpose of a warranty is to cover things that go wrong that aren't supposed to go wrong. They should be covering this defect, unless the car wasn't designed to last, in which case perhaps Nissan should probably indicate that you may be having to buy new $20,000 transmissions every 5,000 miles.



Those owners should go buy a VW. Then they'll get the same $20K transmission, and a free car to go along with it.

AMEN Brother AMEN WELL SAID.

 

[Jim Prower]

That's wonhelluvan assumption

Trust me.

I work with them on a daily basis. Or their drawings, at least.

 

[Dave A]

If that's gospel then a lot of cars are built that don't work including VW's. It's not a case of it working or not, it's a case of what consitutes abuse of the product. I used to have a Borza V5, it was a quick car and very reliable but if I leathered it off the line at lights all the time and put it under a full bore start which is what launch control does then after a few times something will break. Just because a car comes with launch control it doesn't mean you are advised to use it all the time. If you read about it you wouldn't have to look too hard to find out that these starts are not good for your car Nissan GT-R or not.

 

[a6m5]

but engineers these days tend to do things that aren't...practical.

You can't be serious!

 

[Jim Prower]

I get several prints a week for sheetmetal parts that have incorrect and/or missing bend data. There are times when I must rely on the engineer to send me the part file for Pro/E...stuff sits on my desk for weeks without an answer...

But enough on that.

 

[niky]

All cars break on the dragstrip... If you've never had an axle break on you, you're not going fast enough.

But we've discussed this at length in the other thread...

It's funny to note that this whole brouhaha started over one guy b****ing and moaning about how his car broke after over 20 drag launches within the car's break-in period. I would fully expect any car, super or not, with that much grip, to break after that many high-revving launches in such a short span of time. People have done it with Subies, Evos and even Porsches. Grip+AWD+Turbo+High rpm launches=broken things

So, what about cars that don't break on the dragstrip?

What about the Boxsters that eat balancer shafts every 40,000 miles (requiring engine replacement)? What about S2000s that eat themselves because the oil gets low really really fast if you rev them all the time? You don't even have to turn off any safeties to break those cars... and I've heard of Boxster owners on their third engine, already.

Breaking a gearbox on the dragstrip isn't exactly a mortal sin... (and yes, being a Nissan owner, I'm all too familiar with fragile drivetrains...) but the issue just got completely blown out of proportion due to one or two hoons and the internet. Go on NAGTROC and find out exactly how many blown trannies (not electronic glitches, but honest to goodness tranny kibbles) there are... I'm sure the answer will surprise you.

 

[a6m5]

I get several prints a week for sheetmetal parts that have incorrect and/or missing bend data. There are times when I must rely on the engineer to send me the part file for Pro/E...stuff sits on my desk for weeks without an answer...

But enough on that.

No, I'm talking about the "these days" part. It's probably more like "through out our engineering history", they've come up with some unpractical, often boneheaded designs.

 

[McLaren]

only 20k$ tranny job ... not that bad

Dude, it's cheaper to replace a tranny in a Lamborghini by $5K. It is that bad, esp. if the tranny could possibly have a habit of breaking every xxx,xxx miles.

 

[Eric.]

Dude, it's cheaper to replace a tranny in a Lamborghini by $5K. It is that bad, esp. if the tranny could possibly have a habit of breaking every xxx,xxx miles.

I think he was being sarcastic because the article said "only $20,000" but genuinely meaning that it is cheap.

 

[the Interceptor]

There are reasons the Viper and Corvette have engines from trucks and transmissions that shift Earth's gears. They're tough, and they don't break. You may fry your clutch, yes, but apparently GT-Rs are having actual problems with the new-fangled transmission--not the clutches.

In a double clutch gearbox, the clutches and the gearbox are in one housing. Since we don't know exactly what went, it could just as well be one of the clutches.

Other than that, I'm all with Dave A. I don't see much fault at Nissan here. Other manufacturers have done the same thing before. The only reason of the extensive brouhaha going on is the popularity of the GT-R, including hatred. Also, it seems a number of Nissan dealers has actually demonstated launch control to customers on practically new GT-R's, without ever warning them about extensive wear.

 

[Jay]

It's not an assumption.

There are reasons the Viper and Corvette have engines from trucks and transmissions that shift Earth's gears. They're tough, and they don't break. You may fry your clutch, yes, but apparently GT-Rs are having actual problems with the new-fangled transmission--not the clutches. The GT-R was engineered very delicately and precisely, whereas the most far fetched technology the Viper has is an electronic throttle. Hennessey will gladly make you a daily drivable--and usable--Viper that cranks out 1100 lb-ft of torque. The old GT-Rs and Supras and whatnot could do that too because they were built strong. But not this one, obviously.

The R35 GTR weighs 1800+kg's and has 4 sticky tyres to get it off the line, if you were to launch a Viper or Vette hard the wheels would slip taking off considerable stress off the drivetrain, in the GTR's case you will/do get very minimal slip and accelerating the 1800kg+ to 60mph in 3.5 seconds, much more load would be placed on the transmission of the GTR at initial launch.

Not to mention the actual design of the dual clutch transmissions are weaker by design to keep them compact enough and relatively light weight.

 

[Rykon Zero]

I hope that it's not nearly that bad to just drive the car fast.

 

[niky]

Again, scan the NAGTROC boards... find out just how many guys have blown their trannies, and report back... the answer may surprise you... lots of guys there who do track days and drags and who are still on their stock gearbox.

If you're of the opinion that a manufacturer has no right to sell you a car you could possibly break through sheer stupidity... you've probably never broken a car in your life... I've gone through three or four different cars... popped one or two engines, broken CV Joints, stripped clutches, cooked brakes... do I feel that I've been shortchanged? Absolutely not... I know that what I do to my vehicles is destructie, and I'm prepared to pay for it.

Launch a car with lots of grip and lots of rpms? Expect something to break. Lucky you if it's just a clutch, but I've spent too much time rebuilding drive-axles to be too optimistic about this...

Flat shift on the racetrack? Expect something to break. (Been there, paid for that clutch)

Engine-brake into a turn pinging off the rev limiter? Expect something to break. (I've never done this, but I've seen guys do it... and some guys who've lent their cars to others who did this... oh... did I blow your engine? Sorry, dude...)

Take corners at over 1g on low oil? Expect something to blow ( seen that, not pretty).

It's just these guys who buy a performance car, expecting to be able to spank it without paying attention to such things as preventive maintenance, due care and periodic check-ups who really b**** about these things. The rest of us just take it in stride...

 

[Dave A]

I don't see much fault at Nissan here. Other manufacturers have done the same thing before. The only reason of the extensive brouhaha going on is the popularity of the GT-R, including hatred. Also, it seems a number of Nissan dealers has actually demonstated launch control to customers on practically new GT-R's, without ever warning them about extensive wear.

Absolutely, it's amazing how much this has been blown out of the water not jusdt by individuals but by the media. So much so that Nissan have felt the need to remove the launch control from 2010 models. It's not like Nissan is the only car company that will void a warranty under these or similar conditions and it's not like the GT-R is the only car that can't take repeated full bore launches either. It's also not true to say that the GT-R even has a reliability problem in this area as to date it's only one or two isolated incidents where a car has actually broken by overuse of the launch control. People are naive though and they will believe anything they want to regardless of the facts. If someone wants to believe that GT-R is badly made and unreliable because of this then they will believe that and they will reason without logic to try and justify that view.

 

[Keef]

My technician buddy says that Nissan has had some trouble with making a transmission sturdy when they need to be sturdy. Case in point, he's seen many Nissan Titan/Armada 4WD transfer cases blown to bits. Because Nissan didn't make them strong enough. Yes, you may agree that driving and turning on dry asphalt is a bad idea, but I think that I've never heard of a Ford, Dodge, Jeep, Chevy, etc, unit blowing up. Those trucks just skid their tires around a corner and make them bald. But no, Nissan's transfer case blows up. And they don't cover it under warranty--they won't address their won underdevelopment.

 

[Dave A]

And this is the internet, hence the reason "my technician buddy said so..." lines of debate are instantly null and void. The fact is there is no evidence to suggest any problem with the GT-R nor anything unusual regarding Nissans warranty clauses. Even when it comes to the 4x4's which this debate is not about, I am unaware of any glaring issues with Nissans in comparison to the comeptition. That said I am not the person to ask regarding 4x4's, my interest in them is minimal. You can't win an argument on here because you friend said so, to date the GT-R has had no problems that would highlight any issue with the car, the few cases a car has broken has been down to the driver and even then the cases are few. As has been said before, it is physics, you put that much power doown with that much traction and unleash it that suddenly time after time and something will break no matter what the car is. I have seen and heared of many cars breaking due to overly enthusiastic launches being done too regularly regardless of make and model. A cars drivetrain is not made of indestructable material and 480bhp is a huge ammount of power to launch with over and over. If GT-Rs were breaking after one use of the launch control or something like that then there would be an issue, but they are not. A Ferrari can't take much when launch control is used yet nobody is kicking up a fuss about them and they are a lot more expensive than the GT-R.

 

[nissan tuner]

It's a car that people love to hate unfortunately but hey that makes me like it even more.

This showed me how powerful (or destructive) the auto media can be to a company.