The 512BB and ABS = 0

[sebase74]

I just started to try driving with ABS=0, which is a completely new experience for me. So I choose the Ferrari 512BB for Suzuka at the new SCNC Seasonal, but as soon as I hit the brakes I spin out. Go ahead, try it. Is it impossible to drive or am I a total idiot? Does anyone have any (tuning) advice for me?

 

[Tornado]

Did you adjust the brake balance to match as well?

 

[GTPorsche]

Try not to hit the brakes while turning.

 

[DRambo]

What sort of controller do you use?

 

[sebase74]

I have a wheel (DFP), and I adjusted the brakes to f=1 / r=9. Is it better to adjust vice versa? Plus I always try to brake before the turn.

 

[Tornado]

Is it better to adjust vice versa?

Yes. VERY much so. Try 3/1 or something similar.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Yes, because this way the rear wheels lock up and the car spins. Also don't use numbers that high, for a realistic effect, I would use 2:0 or something like this (don't forget it's an old car and the brakes aren't that strong).

 

[DRambo]

OK, firstly, keep it up. Turning ABS off makes GT5 a far better experience of driving.

You should keep the brake balance 5/5 in the first instance, as is the default. By setting the balance 1/9, you have set most of your braking to the rear, so that when braking, you are locking the rear wheels, causing a spin. In general, the front wheels need to do most braking (as you will be aware, cars have bigger brake discs on the front) so try 5/4 or 6/5 brake balance.

The tyres and suspension settings will also affect how your braking works. Be careful, don't expect to just be able to floor the pedal, as you might with ABS, give your braking more time and try an feel your way into the corner.

Think about how much pressure you put on the brake pedal in a real car - not much - if you slam the pedal in GT5, your gunna lock you wheels.

Keep with it. Much more fun.

By the way, you're not an idiot. Any rear engined car is more diffiicult, because the weight of the engine in the back makes it want to swop ends under braking. Try a front wheel, front engine car. You couldn't have tried a more difficult car to start ABS "0" !!!!

 

[sebase74]

Thank you, folks!! Very helpful advice!

Actually I never quite understood the braking balance. As in, say, is f3/r4 equal to f6/r8?

Driving without ABS is definetly much more fun! Just tried the f3/r1 setting and the race is still difficult but the car handles much much better. Thanks again.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

By the way, you're not an idiot. Any rear engined car is more diffiicult, because the weight of the engine in the back makes it want to swop ends under braking. Try a front wheel, front engine car. You couldn't have tried a more difficult car to start ABS "0" !!!!

Hmm, after reading this part of your post I think I may give ABS 0 driving another chance. Perhaps I was using the wrong kind of car at first when I first started trying it.

 

[DRambo]

Hmm, after reading this part of your post I think I may give ABS 0 driving another chance. Perhaps I was using the wrong kind of car at first when I first started trying it.

It's such a big part of driving, using ABS in racing kills half the skill!!!

It also makes GT5 more of a challenge with the AI cars. You seem to be more on a par.

 

[tribolik]

I never use ABS because its a lot more fun that way - not because Im anything special playing the game.
You have to adjust the brake bias towards the front - start with - F-5 and R-3
I usualy set it so that the front locks before the rear and just before the pedal reaches the end of its travel. If the front locks at 5 - and after the rear locks at 4 or 3 I set it so that the front still locks just before the pedal reaches the end but without locking the rear.

I only adjust the brakes towards the rear when I want to drift (so that it gives me the same effect as the hand brake) so that the back sets out and I start drifting but thats no good for racing...

 

[DRambo]

Don't shift the balance to much from 5/5 as you will be asking one axle or the other to do too much of the braking, resulting in inefficient braking. If you are having to set balance too much away from 5/5 with racing cars, I suggest your suspension settings are not working well for braking and the tyres you are using.

 

[iamsupernasty]

Don't shift the balance to much from 5/5 as you will be asking one axle or the other to do too much of the braking, resulting in inefficient braking. If you are having to set balance too much away from 5/5 with racing cars, I suggest your suspension settings are not working well for braking and the tyres you are using.

Disagree. There isn't a race car (or car in general) in the world that uses a 5/5 brake bias.

When your on the brake the weight shifts forward onto the front wheels, meaning you need more brakes on the front tires. An even (50/50) brake bias would cause the rear wheels to lock up a lot.

 

[sebase74]

!st place, huzaah! From now on ABS 0! Fun fun fun!!

Thanks for the braking balance insights btw!

 

[DRambo]

Disagree. There isn't a race car (or car in general) in the world that uses a 5/5 brake bias.

When your on the brake the weight shifts forward onto the front wheels, meaning you need more brakes on the front tires. An even (50/50) brake bias would cause the rear wheels to lock up a lot.

You're correct that the weight shift means more front braking is needed (see my earlier comments re bake [or even brake] disc sizes). However, my feel of GT5 is that the "natural" brake balance of each individual car, with a bias to the front, is already worked into the game at 5/5.

 

[phil_75]

Lock ups look great on replays and make brilliant pictures using mode3, especially when just the font or rear wheels!

 

[Monosukoi]

I tried driving without ABS for the first time today - using a DS3 (lol).

While I didn't use the 512BB I did learn some things (I think) and got better at it. I was using an untuned Ferrari 430 '06 with racing soft tyres, a nice car, but nothing out of this world.

I was at Laguna Seca and found that too often I was locking the rears, and tinkered with the brake bias a lot until I was a bit more comfortable (I think 1:0), I felt as though I would be happier with the fronts locking up more than the rears, it felt more manageable.

However I found that into the first turn, a downhill heavy braking zone, and also into the Corkscrew, I was still getting twitchy on the rear and I found it difficult to overcome, particularly the Corkscrew.

I looked around the settings and decided to buy the fully customisable LSD. Again I looked at the different parameters for it and read in the guide that the braking sensitivity can help make braking more comfortable. I turned the braking sensitivity quite high I think, but immediately I found an amazing difference. It feels much much more 'solid' I guess, and I have so much more confidence going into turn 1. Not as much with ABS on, but still, a lot more than I had previously.

The Corkscrew is still quite difficult to get right and I think I'm braking too early, just to get through the corner. I still don't feel like I'm attacking the circuit properly.

Basically - if it's possible - I would suggest looking at the fully customisable LSD and changing the braking settings for that. It makes the car quite understeery when you're going into some of the corners, so I have to find a solution to that...

 

[shirakawaa]

The poor default brake balance (really, it makes no sense) for all cars in GT5 doesn't help in driving with the ABS off.
Under full braking usually at least 75-80% of the car's weight goes on front wheels. The brake balance should reflect that.
I usually use 9:3 or 8:3 as a good starting point. This allows to lock front wheels at just over half the total brake range with comfort soft or sports hard tires on a flat road, without downforce.

A more practical way to set up the brake balance is to set up the front brakes strenght to the maximum you can handle without immediately locking wheels (make sure you still are able to lock wheels, to have reserve power in case of added front load due to elevation differences or aerodynamics). Then set up the rear strength to the maximum you can handle without having excessive oversteer when cornering or worse, locking rear tires. Rear brake strenght will be lower than the front.

You're correct that the weight shift means more front braking is needed (see my earlier comments re bake [or even brake] disc sizes). However, my feel of GT5 is that the "natural" brake balance of each individual car, with a bias to the front, is already worked into the game at 5/5.

I regularly drive on GT5 with the ABS off, and a 5/5 brake balance (or otherwise, the same value for both front and rear brake strenght) means a 50%-50% brake distribution.
This will cause rear tires to lock first when braking, and the car to spin hopelessely when approaching corners.

Please note that with the ABS enabled brake distribution values almost completely lose their meaning.

I was at Laguna Seca and found that too often I was locking the rears, and tinkered with the brake bias a lot until I was a bit more comfortable (I think 1:0), I felt as though I would be happier with the fronts locking up more than the rears, it felt more manageable.

Keep in mind that if the brake strength on the front axle is too low, you won't be able to apply the maximum braking potential. You have to make sure that you are able to lock front tires. A brake distribution of 1:0 is too low, try practicing with higher values until you are able to apply the maximum braking force at something between 50% and 100% of the total brake input (pedal or DS3 trigger).

Don't shift the balance to much from 5/5 as you will be asking one axle or the other to do too much of the braking, resulting in inefficient braking. If you are having to set balance too much away from 5/5 with racing cars, I suggest your suspension settings are not working well for braking and the tyres you are using.

In real life it's the front tires that do most of the braking anyway. You have to make sure that they lock up before rear ones.
As I've written, with a 5/5 brake distribution rear tires will lock first in GT5.

I have a wheel (DFP), and I adjusted the brakes to f=1 / r=9. Is it better to adjust vice versa? Plus I always try to brake before the turn.

You drive with the ABS enabled, don't you? With it, the brake distribution appears to lose its meaning. If you disable it you will spin immediately when braking fully.
Your braking distances will also be much longer than normal if you manage to not lock rear tires.

What sort of controller do you use?

A properly set up brake balance is manageable on a DS3 too.
I use ABS=0 on both that and a DFGT wheel.

 

[dening80]

It's such a big part of driving, using ABS in racing kills half the skill!!!

It also makes GT5 more of a challenge with the AI cars. You seem to be more on a par.

Ditching ABS has instantly made GT5 more interesting again, thankfully I have a DFGT to play with bias though. It is so much more fun to race as it does even the score a little with the AI.

I played the pre release demo at Mercedes in Stuttgart last year and loved how the car moved around under braking, I had never really felt that once GT5 came out. But now since I got rid of ABS it's awesome. Needing to take care of everything before turn in makes driving more interesting especially the slower cars.

 

[DRambo]

The poor default brake balance (really, it makes no sense) for all cars in GT5 doesn't help in driving with the ABS off.
Under full braking usually at least 75-80% of the car's weight goes on front wheels. The brake balance should reflect that.

I always play with ABS off. A braking force of 50/50 might be the force that is applied to the brake calipers, but given that the front discs are much larger and have larger or more calipers than the rears, the braking effect is not 50/50.

I maintain that if you are setting the brake balance to the extremes us use, then you are not braking as efficiently as you could. Different tyres require different suspension/aero settings to prevent rear lock up. Shifting the balance forwards is jusy an easy fix in my view.

 

[shirakawaa]

Easy test: if with a neutrally handling (or even understeery) car you have oversteer when braking, then the rear brake bias is set too high. That happens with all cars I tried with the default 5/5 setting and the ABS off.

It's adjusting aerodynamics and suspensions to counter the effects on handling of an improperly set brake distribution that is wrong.

 

[ollyb]

Sorry to move the thread to a slightly different subject, but this does sound like a good place to find some players for online 'old cars, stock, ABS:0 racing'

I'll buy a 512BB and a few other premium historic cars and make a room sometime.

PSN is ollybsides

 

[DRambo]

It's adjusting aerodynamics and suspensions to counter the effects on handling of an improperly set brake distribution that is wrong.

Your missing my point. If you go up or down the tyre grades without altering how your suspension works, then you will get imbalances in braking, which may result in lock ups, front or rear. Your extreme bias towards the front just seems to me to be trying to put back the ABS effect.

 

[shirakawaa]

Your missing my point. If you go up or down the tyre grades without altering how your suspension works, then you will get imbalances in braking, which may result in lock ups, front or rear.

Going up in tire grade (as it usually happens in GT5) can only increase weight transfer on front tires, making them less prone to lock up (and the rear tires more prone to lock).

Your extreme bias towards the front just seems to me to be trying to put back the ABS effect.

This doesn't make any sense.

Unlike what you're implying, it is perfectly normal to have a significantly higher front brake bias than on the rear. A 8/3 bias setting is not extreme and gives on a stock street FR car (for example Nissan 300ZX) shorter braking spaces than, let's say 5/5, in addition to a more correct neutral handling while braking when approaching corners. Again, this is of course with the ABS disabled.

Just try, you might be surprised. I just tried your "balanced" brake bias settings, and they were horrible, with poor braking distances and the car oversteering even on a straight line.
You can try on Grand Valley Speedway (normal version, not reverse). Start braking at the first horizontal shadow line on the main straight and check how much before the second one you can stop your car completely.

EDIT: I've uploaded a replay savedata of the test I did. You can import it in GT5 by accessing the Game menu in the XMB > Saved Data Utility (PS3) > USB Device (USB Flash Drive) > Gran Turismo 5 Replay (Updated Version) (376 kB). Then, in GT5, import data with the Replay Theater.
You will have to preserve the directory structure (PS3>SAVEDATA>etc...) when copying files to the USB Device.

Easier said than done, though.

Anyway, that was a stock (282 hp) Premium Nissan 300ZX with the ABS off and a 9/3 braking distribution with comfort soft tires at Grand Valley Speedway.

 

[DRambo]

I respect your view and understand where you are coming from, although I'm not sure we're going to convince each other!!!

 

[Energizerrr]

You need clutch in order to fully replicate the no-ABS way of driving. You can't stall the engine that way.