The absurdness of "hardcore"...

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I see what you're saying, especially in regards to the AI... but a lot of real world racing is based on memorization as well. Formula 1 drivers are exceedingly familiar with racing lines and braking zones on the tracks they drive. The best example of skill taking place over memorization would be rally, which is probably why I respect those guys more :D

Rally drivers have claimed they don't know the courses which is why the navigator is telling them how hard the turn is and where there may be a potential problem of getting air so therefore even telling the driver which line to take to avoid a bump. They may be somewhat familiar with a home course but that would be all. :)
 
Rally drivers have claimed they don't know the courses which is why the navigator is telling them how hard the turn is and where there may be a potential problem of getting air so therefore even telling the driver which line to take to avoid a bump. They may be somewhat familiar with a home course but that would be all. :)

Rally is all about trust in your co-driver. I believe tho they know the course a bit, I mean someone like loeb who won like what, 7 championship must know some of the special very good.
 
I think there is plenty of skill involved. I tell bob exactly when to pit. The skill is reading to determine which button says pit!
LMAO - I'll put this in the "who cares" file and go play online where if I memorize a track, it doesn't help if I can't get the car around it.
 
I very much agree in principle with the original post but there is a fair weight of ability/skill required to achieve the most difficult missions in the game along with the trial and error mentioned.
 
Rally is all about trust in your co-driver. I believe tho they know the course a bit, I mean someone like loeb who won like what, 7 championship must know some of the special very good.

They get two runs of the track before the event under a strict speed limit. During the first run the co-driver will make the pacenotes, and during the second will read them out, if there are any errors or any confusion between the two regarding the notes they're edited.

Apart from that, they're not allowed any practice. Unless they just happened to race in that location in a previous event.
 
The only thing I find quite absurd is when you find people that go:

"trolol u cnt drie with tcs n abs off u noob!!!! go play need4 sped"

That is by far one of the most annoying things I've found on this forum.
 
The only thing I find quite absurd is when you find people that go:

"trolol u cnt drie with tcs n abs off u noob!!!! go play need4 sped"

That is by far one of the most annoying things I've found on this forum.

People that do that are either extremely puerile or just seek refuge in the only thing that they can excel at.

I mean, they try to enjoy to the maximum extent their 2 milligrams of power in the forums. They really are annoying. Moderators should ban those fellows instead of focusing on foul language and other irrelevant factors.
 
It's like this in every game especially these days. If one doesn't work or just works enough in real life they do well in games... they have more time to practice etc..cause they're probably have no job, laid off etc..
 
I would be interested to see the specific examples where my command of the language fails.

I would also like to know how I am incorrect in my reading of your post. If you read my post clearly, I edited it to make it more accessible to everyone, you can see that my point is that there is really no such thing as a priori knowledge outside of certain things like mathematical concepts.

You seem to be saying that racing is not based off a priori knowledge, like other things are. As I explain in my post, there really are no actions performed by humans that would fall into the category of art or any craft that base themselves off a priori.

In regards to your claim that I am arrogant and boasting, it bears mentioning that you were the first to slip in your education level and degree as some sort of qualification of the truth of your statements.
 
I, too have sometimes felt that I was just running the same path over and over until I got each part perfect. It may feel like simply perfecting a pattern in your shoes, but look online at videos and advice and you'll almost certainly find variation in the ways its done. Countless times I've found people getting faster times than me, while I would still be faster than them through certain parts.

To get a gold on the X1 races, you have two laps to get in front of a a car that started sooner than you, ahead of you, and is driven VERY quickly. In Monza, I could pass him by turn 5 on the first lap, which isn't necessary to gold the challenge, but I knew that I was DAMN GOOD at that first sector, it's the rest that I need some input to get through. If I ran both laps with my first sector looking like that, and other sectors looking like some of the guys on this forum, there would easily be a 1 second margin.

Again, have a handful of F1 drivers do a time attack lap. No other cars, just them and the track. It's HIGHLY likely they'll get within 1 second of each other on any track under 2 minutes or so. Would you draw the same conclusion about their jobs being mindless memorization then? They do it over and over, and eventually going any faster becomes a daunting task. That's what's required to get the golds, and that's why I'm going to ignore some. Why don't you do the same?

Ok, you got your points, but I really want all the golds. I mean, if I don't get them my life won't be a drama, but it would be really satisfying to achieve all of them. I'm trying hard.
 
Let me first apologize to the OP and the rest of the community, I am guilty of claiming the some of the herder special events are too easy. Though I didn't say it out of arrogance, my point in saying it was like the OP's, once you know the patterns of the AI, it is easy.

Next let me point out something (that by the time this is posted, will probably already have been said). Observation and memorization are skills in racing. Particularly when it comes to beating opponents. By this time I should add a disclaimer that I have no experience in any type of motorsport, but I think my point is still valid. Using observation and memorization are great ways to exploit your opponent's weaknesses. Seeing and remembering their mistakes against them is a good weapon to use. If they have a tendency (or pattern, if you will) of understeering through corners you could simply brake late and overtake on the inside or the transition. This is only one simple example, there are many more complicated ways in which observing an opponent's patterns can be used "skillfully".

However, I see the point the OP is making. The mistakes the AI makes and their patterns are huge and not very subtle. They aren't dynamic enough and rather stupid. I think in a bigger picture, PD is going in the right direction, they just need to make these mistakes and patterns quite a bit harder to notice.
 
I would be interested to see the specific examples where my command of the language fails.

I would also like to know how I am incorrect in my reading of your post. If you read my post clearly, I edited it to make it more accessible to everyone, you can see that my point is that there is really no such thing as a priori knowledge outside of certain things like mathematical concepts.

You seem to be saying that racing is not based off a priori knowledge, like other things are. As I explain in my post, there really are no actions performed by humans that would fall into the category of art or any craft that base themselves off a priori.

In regards to your claim that I am arrogant and boasting, it bears mentioning that you were the first to slip in your education level and degree as some sort of qualification of the truth of your statements.

Wow, you attest that I called you arrogant and boasting? That is what you wish. I called you insecure and ignorant. Another perfect example that shows your lack of understanding.

Now, if you feel that this forum is the appropriate way to "prove" things, you are really lost in the mist.

I mentioned my education because you began your rant about the 101 philosophy lessons.

And trust me, your Kantian knowledge or its application is one of a million things I don't care about. You are the one jumping like a little poodle trying to call attention from me, not the other way around.
 
Let me first apologize to the OP and the rest of the community, I am guilty of claiming the some of the herder special events are too easy. Though I didn't say it out of arrogance, my point in saying it was like the OP's, once you know the patterns of the AI, it is easy.

Next let me point out something (that by the time this is posted, will probably already have been said). Observation and memorization are skills in racing. Particularly when it comes to beating opponents. By this time I should add a disclaimer that I have no experience in any type of motorsport, but I think my point is still valid. Using observation and memorization are great ways to exploit your opponent's weaknesses. Seeing and remembering their mistakes against them is a good weapon to use. If they have a tendency (or pattern, if you will) of understeering through corners you could simply brake late and overtake on the inside or the transition. This is only one simple example, there are many more complicated ways in which observing an opponent's patterns can be used "skillfully".

However, I see the point the OP is making. The mistakes the AI makes and their patterns are huge and not very subtle. They aren't dynamic enough and rather stupid. I think in a bigger picture, PD is going in the right direction, they just need to make these mistakes and patterns quite a bit harder to notice.

Thank you very much. Totally agree with you.
 
I'm happy there are harder challenges. It makes the game a challenge for almost everyone. Else it would just be plain boring for those with a tad more talent. You don't have to gold everything... But I'll admit I got all 60 licences golded and all challenges as well. (except last AMG challenge, since I'm just lvl 22 yet), so maybe my view on it is different.

Oh, rally is also about memorization. You need to memorize what the co-driver said.
 
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It's a tough call to make, because then we're putting skill very close to natural talent... and if games required that they'd just turn out impossible for some people.
I think bronze in every event in GT5 is fairly possible foir almost everyone..
 
I'm nearly at 100% in this game. Of all the events, the only notably difficult challenges (ignoring B-spec) are the Grand Tour event where you take the Alfa Romeo around Eiger Nordwand, the Sebastian Vettel X2010 challenges, and maybe the FGT championship just because it's so draining and requires a higher degree of consistency as well as all the cars being equals. These difficult venues are in fact a test of skill. It tests your ability to apply driving techniques, apply them consistently, and learn the course. To me, the OP just sounds frustrated that he cannot complete these challenges and is trying to make excuses, but regardless, there is no logic in claiming that having to learn a track and apply the proper techniques to win does not take skill. It's absurd even.
 
As I've said elsewhere, a lot of the gold trophies (particularly in the license tests) are less about competent car control and more about randomly picking up that last 0.5 second you needed, which will never teach you anything because you didn't necessarily try anything different.
 
Skill would be unlocking the toughest things in the game out of your perfect driving technique, without memorizing, but that would be impossible because this is a just a video game, not an art or something you can execute with skill "a priori".

I'm sorry but what you're saying is ridiculous. A race car driver has to memorize the track. I can memorize a track too but that doesn't mean I will be able to produce the same lap times as a talented professional.

Memorizing a brake point doesn't mean you'll be able to hit it precisely. Memorizing the proper steering input and driving line doesn't mean you'll be able to execute it as well or as easily as someone with more talent.

If it's all about practice and memorization how do you explain why some people here got 60 golds in the licenses so quickly while people like me have been struggling forever on licenses like ic-10?

Anything that requires eye hand coordination requires skill.

I think your definition of "skill" is limited.
 
cxbxb---

How was that input possible to achieve? If I remember right I wrote 3 sentences... Any way. Why are u guys insulting one another again??? And for the first post, I beated the first Vettel challenge with a 1,5 sec margin. Dont know why, just did. Didn't cheat or cut corners. Was damn hard. Achieved with continues hours of game play, countless repeats and SKILL. Though some might say memorizing but in reality in 300 mph or 400 km/h (like it should be) there's no time for memorizing. U just negotiate in corners with SKILL gained from infinite repeating and practicing. So memorizing is just another skill as skill is another ability got from memorizing.

And please don't insult anyone, cuz thats really annoying and childish.
 
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I'm not against memorization in racing, it is vital indeed. What i said is that the toughest golds in GT5 are only obtained by memorizing the pattern that the programmer put in the algorithm, it could have been much more interesting if those golds could be obtained with talent and a little improvisation to even beat the gold with bigger margins, but that is impossible in GT5's toughest golds.

Again, if someone can beat the toughest golds by a one second margin or so, I will be plain wrong.

If GT5's toughest golds were able to be beaten by bigger margins that would mean the bar hadn't been set high enough. Hence the point of only the fastest of times being worthy of a gold trophy. If some or even very few people were able to do that then it would stand to reason alot of people would be able to scrape by just barely getting gold and it would take away from the somewhat exclusivity of earning gold trophies. I don't take you to be an unintelligent person so surely you must understand this. I know the game can be frustrating at times but rewards aren't offered as a measure of how hard you try, they're a symbol of how well you succeed, life isn't a Disney movie, suck it up.

These difficult venues are in fact a test of skill. It tests your ability to apply driving techniques, apply them consistently, and learn the course. To me, the OP just sounds frustrated that he cannot complete these challenges and is trying to make excuses, but regardless, there is no logic in claiming that having to learn a track and apply the proper techniques to win does not take skill. It's absurd even.

^This. 👍
 
Kypp, kanjifreak... please stay on the topic at hand. If you want to argue about who's the better legalist or scholar, there's always the PMs.

Personally... I don't see where the problem lies. GT5 is not Donkey Kong, Pac-Man or Super Mario Brothers, where you memorize an algorithm and perform precisely-timed discrete motions. In those videogames, your actions are limited to actions with very specific timing and outcomes.

In GT5, as in real racing, there is a "perfect" line that can be memorized and has to be run over and over again to successfully complete a race or challenge. But even in tests, where the opposition is always the same and starts in the same places, there are a million things that can happen. A million different lines you can take through a corner. A million and one different braking points.

While we always try to hit the apex in the same spot, brake at exactly the right time, and get on the gas as early as possible, we can't. We're only human. We constantly have to adjust our line, our braking, our cornering attitude and our strategy for the next corner based on the mistakes we made in the last one.

That's the beauty of racing. It's an organic, rather than a digital process. Which is why, even after hundreds of laps on the same track, I still discover something new each time I go out. ;)
 
I've been a musician/teacher for many years... and people often say I'm 'talented'. (Muted cheers...)

I smile, nod, move on. In my opinion there is no such thing as 'talent' outside the basic physiological aptitude for learning that differs in each instance of a human. Practice, understanding, memorisation, repetition. Those are the things that appear talented to the outsider - even people who may have actually acquired the same skillsets as yourself.

I can listen to a piece of music and play it back immediately - that's a combination of awareness and memory at work. After 20, 30, 40 playthroughs the repetition of that piece will improve and begin (if I allow it) to take on my own stylistic touches.

I enjoy track racing games because they massage the same parts of my brain that playing music does. The concentration of awareness and memory when learning a new track or when learning how to drive a track in a new car are very relaxing.

Memorisation of the 'routines' involved in a succesful lap is key and so therefore is repetition. The point is, of course, what constitutes the measure of success for a lap - Famine [Edit - sorry, it was niky!] has just alluded to the same organic nature of racing versus hotlapping.

Skill? Talent? It lies in effortlessly repeating the necessary base processes and balancing those against a desired stylistic outcome.

I see no absurdness [sic] in the fact that a racing game would require you to manage such functions to high degree...
 
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Interesting you bring up music. Because that is another discipline in which repetition is necessary for mastery, and in which there is a theoretically perfect way to perform a piece. And yet musicians who inspire our awe are not the robotic ones able to render a piece MIDI-perfect, but those who take it to the next level.

That said, complete mastery of even the most repetitive and constrained of video games is a wonder to behold:



Even in repetition, there's skill. Of course, it'd be impossible to do the same thing in GT5. I doubt you could even finish GT1 in just eleven minutes.
 
I've been a musician/teacher for many years... and people often say I'm 'talented'. (Muted cheers...)

I smile, nod, move on. In my opinion there is no such thing as 'talent' outside the basic physiological aptitude for learning that differs in each instance of a human. Practice, understanding, memorisation, repetition. Those are the things that appear talented to the outsider - even people who may have actually acquired the same skillsets as yourself.

I can listen to a piece of music and play it back immediately - that's a combination of awareness and memory at work. After 20, 30, 40 playthroughs the repetition of that piece will improve and begin (if I allow it) to take on my own stylistic touches.

I enjoy track racing games because they massage the same parts of my brain that playing music does. The concentration of awareness and memory when learning a new track or when learning how to drive a track in a new car are very relaxing.

Memorisation of the 'routines' involved in a succesful lap is key and so therefore is repetition. The point is, of course, what constitutes the measure of success for a lap - Famine [Edit - sorry, it was niky!] has just alluded to the same organic nature of racing versus hotlapping.

Skill? Talent? It lies in effortlessly repeating the necessary base processes and balancing those against a desired stylistic outcome.

I see no absurdness [sic] in the fact that a racing game would require you to manage such functions to high degree...

Ok, composition would be the perfect example to support my point, not execution.

Oh and the "absurdness", well, I say it again, English is not my first language. Sorry about that error.

Interesting you bring up music. Because that is another discipline in which repetition is necessary for mastery, and in which there is a theoretically perfect way to perform a piece. And yet musicians who inspire our awe are not the robotic ones able to render a piece MIDI-perfect, but those who take it to the next level.

That said, complete mastery of even the most repetitive and constrained of video games is a wonder to behold:



Even in repetition, there's skill. Of course, it'd be impossible to do the same thing in GT5. I doubt you could even finish GT1 in just eleven minutes.


Ok, composition would be the perfect example to support my point, not execution.

I'm sorry but what you're saying is ridiculous. A race car driver has to memorize the track. I can memorize a track too but that doesn't mean I will be able to produce the same lap times as a talented professional.

Memorizing a brake point doesn't mean you'll be able to hit it precisely. Memorizing the proper steering input and driving line doesn't mean you'll be able to execute it as well or as easily as someone with more talent.

If it's all about practice and memorization how do you explain why some people here got 60 golds in the licenses so quickly while people like me have been struggling forever on licenses like ic-10?

Anything that requires eye hand coordination requires skill.

I think your definition of "skill" is limited.

No way, video games are the ones with limitations and the ones with their own "skill" definition which means complying with what the algorithm set by the programmer requires.

How come people can't understand my point and just go on talking about "real life racing"?. My God...

Ok, I think people are just talking about different things here, so here it goes again:

Video games are the ones with limitations and the ones with their own "skill" definition which means complying with what the algorithm set by the programmer requires, which can be easily accomplished by memorizing said requirement through repetition.

How come people can't understand my point and just go on talking about "real life racing"?.

My God... GT5 is a video game, not real life racing...

Just an easy analogy here:

One thing is to compose music, and another would be to execute music.

Both require skill, yes, of course everything in life requires skill.

Composition is not accomplished by memorizing, execution is accomplished by memorizing.

Got it now?

GT5 forces you to execute music, you can't compose (I mean while driving for the TOUGHEST golds in the game, please don't come up with the course maker feature...)

And yes, I have all the golds I've been trying and will eventually get them all, so why do people insist in "the OP is frustrated".

No, no, the OP (me) is analyzing a marvelous game with hopes to contribute with something that could make it evolve even further.

Got it now?
 
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I think you need to analyze 'how' to get your desired result from the game from the programmers perspective. Everything in the game has to be controlled by an algorithm, some are more organic, such as AI responses and so have more permutations, but others, like the gold thresholds, are fixed.
How would you suggest to alter this? Style points? This would require another algorithm to calculate 'style', which like anything in life, is subjective and would again be controlled by the programmers own 'style' parameters.
I agree with the OP that there is very little margin for error and that talent/skill can not be rewarded based on these notions, but again, the very notion of talent/skill is subjective and as such will always have to be controlled in some way to retain its mass appeal.
I can offer no solution to help you but perhaps in the not too distant future (GT6) these may become addressed and satisfy your requests.

Renrag
 
I think you need to analyze 'how' to get your desired result from the game from the programmers perspective. Everything in the game has to be controlled by an algorithm, some are more organic, such as AI responses and so have more permutations, but others, like the gold thresholds, are fixed.
How would you suggest to alter this? Style points? This would require another algorithm to calculate 'style', which like anything in life, is subjective and would again be controlled by the programmers own 'style' parameters.
I agree with the OP that there is very little margin for error and that talent/skill can not be rewarded based on these notions, but again, the very notion of talent/skill is subjective and as such will always have to be controlled in some way to retain its mass appeal.
I can offer no solution to help you but perhaps in the not too distant future (GT6) these may become addressed and satisfy your requests.

Renrag

You just hit the nail with high precision Renrag. I really appreciate your reply. This is exactly the issue that I brought to the table here, but people just got lost in secondary arguments.

I can only suggest that the toughest challenges might be completed in a future game with a mix of a tough algorithm and a mix of additional style/talent/skill as in an organic manner, as you mentioned.

That is exactly my only frustrated expectation with the game, at the point we are now in technological development, GT5 should have addressed that issue.

Thanks again Renrag for your reply.
 
Style points are incredibly difficult to implement in a driving game. It would have to judge based on an objective metric, which would then force people to drive in a certain manner. My favorite laps are those done "Loeb" style. Sliding, but not Banzai sideways. They would never win a drift challenge or count as fastest laps. But they please me aesthetically.

Video games are the ones with limitations and the ones with their own "skill" definition which means complying with what the algorithm set by the programmer requires, which can be easily accomplished by memorizing said requirement through repetition.

I think the mis-communication occurs in the way you define GT5.

You're looking at it as a videogame, one with set limitiations on input and output.

But for those of us with experience on track, we recognize those limitations as very similar to those that you have in real life. There is no magic input that makes you twice as fast through each corner. There is the perfect line, and infinite variations on it, the permutations of which cause the points spread from 1st to 10th place on any online leaderboard. And there is always a more "perfect" lap to be found.

I understand your frustration that in some tests, you will be overtaking car "X" at "n" time interval, then car "Y" at an "n+2" time interval, but GT5 is not entirely dissimilar to real life racing.

While watching a time trial against the clock or computer can be like watching a robot whiz around the track, the same can be said of many qualifying runs in motorsports. But in GT5, just as in real life, a race between two players who are evenly matched can be beautiful.

From: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=144002

 
My God... GT5 is a video game, not real life racing...

Just an easy analogy here:

One thing is to compose music, and another would be to execute music.

Both require skill, yes, of course everything in life requires skill.

Composition is not accomplished by memorizing, execution is accomplished by memorizing.

But racing is a sport. It's nothing like writing music. It's all about execution and the ability to execute.

In baseball everyone knows what needs to be done. You have to hit the ball with the bat. You have to catch the ball. You have to throw the ball. However executing is not so easy. You can practice your whole life and never make it to the professional level.

No, execution is not completely accomplished by memorizing. The sport of baseball proves your premise false. Even being the greatest Pac-Man player in the world would require some exceptional hand eye coordination and ability.
 
So here's the thing, assuming a base level of talent (eg tone defs won't make good music no matter how much they practice), repetition and memorization will make a person better and more skilled.

For most video games, this acquired skill is rather useless; getting super awesome at CoD won't get you a job, nor will it help you protect yourself in world war three. However in the case of GT this acquired skill is slightly more useful.

I think that GT might actually improve your driving slightly, perhaps helping a new driver gain experience for their road test, and make experienced drivers more able to handle dangerous situations.

Of course, don't drive like a maniac, but if you find yourself accidentally drifting around a corner, maybe the lessons learned in GT will come in handy.
 
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