The BMW M3 E36 goes sideways when braking

[PlanetJanet]

Yep. There will be vehicle specific parameters which feed into the overarching physics model.

Something for this car is clearly not right. Hopefully they patch it sooner rather than later

Right. That was my point to be honest, but expressed badly. The parameters for this car in stock form might be a bit off, but it doesn't mean that the whole physics model update was a "mistake" (per the OP).

On the other hand, it might be that the whole physics model is broken, given all the spaceships. But there seems to be a narrative that any car exhibiting odd behaviour is proof of a failed update and a broken model, which I'm not convinced by at all.

 

[Galvston]

Right. That was my point to be honest, but expressed badly. The parameters for this car in stock form might be a bit off, but it doesn't mean that the whole physics model update was a "mistake" (per the OP).

On the other hand, it might be that the whole physics model is broken, given all the spaceships. But there seems to be a narrative that any car exhibiting odd behaviour is proof of a failed update and a broken model, which I'm not convinced by at all.

Skill issue imo.

My cars, including the M3, are just fine. I think some people maybe frustrared their favorite tuned cars suck now so they Just say the whole game sucks. Someone said associative coherence going on, Its true.

Also, This update is important for GT, its actually showing how they are not catering to the casual family but more towards making a good sim.

 

[mynameis66]

Skill issue imo.

My cars, including the M3, are just fine. I think some people maybe frustrared their favorite tuned cars suck now so they Just say the whole game sucks. Someone said associative coherence going on, Its true.

Also, This update is important for GT, its actually showing how they are not catering to the casual family but more towards making a good sim.

But how many players are what you call casuals and how many are dedicated sim racers? Gran Turismo has always offered access for everybody regardless of there skill levels, if they went down the sim route would they lose or gain customers? Just curious what others think.

 

[Mafio]

I think the point is bring new players into the Sim and IRL racing worlds.

 

[ZEE]

Strange, Haven't had this issue myself with this car when I did my recording here. Default setup, no adjustments.

I don't think I've had this issue with the stock car, but will check, it when it has been tuned up with it straight six engine or had the LS7 engine swap done to it. It was defo not like this pre-update!!!

The car needs to be patched as I do love it and wanna drive it alot in the game!

 

[Old_Richard]

The car is not broken or undrivable, it's simply not got a good set-up. Here's a shameless plug for my video that explains what can cause the car to drive like it has a personality disorder and shows some set-up sheets that give it more stable handling, including with 1200hp.

One thing I have noticed since the update is how the new physics has affected suspension setup. It seems to be more noticeable in more powerful cars. Or, at least, I really noticed it when I did the current Weekly hypercar race at Interlagos. I use a Tributo for these races that's maxxed out in all areas and sticks to the road like glue even with 1000+ hp...... or at least it did until I tried it after the update. Post update it seemed to have zero grip - I tried a couple of things but what sorted it was increasing the spring rate.

I've always thought the sweet spot for spring frequency seemed quite low and it looks like they've done something to change that.

 

[VXR]

Ironically, it was the fitment of larger wheels than stock that contributed to me writing off my E36 in 2007. It came with 15s on 205 section tyres, and six days before the crash, I had fitted 16" with 225s all round. When I came into a corner too hot and wanted to slow, lift-off oversteer occurred, which I was no stranger to with that car, but the tyres were banging on the arch liner and it wouldn't correct. This left me with not enough space to brake before hitting a mud bank and the car ending on its side.

The way the M3 drives if too low, actually seems plausible.

 

[ShiftingGears]

When driving Eiger reverse it barely turns through some hairpins. So badly that you have to mash the throttle to rotate it on the stock tyres. It's not unique to the car but you would've thought that they would've at least tested a new car and track combination...

Snapping sideways under braking isn't an issue IMO it means there's a lot more precision needed because it happens with the Gr3 Supra at Pouhon, it rewards not merely throwing the car in.

But the M3 and others just feel like the suspension bottoms out which no car should feel like on a stock setting.

 

[lbpomg95]

One thing I have noticed since the update is how the new physics has affected suspension setup. It seems to be more noticeable in more powerful cars. Or, at least, I really noticed it when I did the current Weekly hypercar race at Interlagos. I use a Tributo for these races that's maxxed out in all areas and sticks to the road like glue even with 1000+ hp...... or at least it did until I tried it after the update. Post update it seemed to have zero grip - I tried a couple of things but what sorted it was increasing the spring rate.

I've always thought the sweet spot for spring frequency seemed quite low and it looks like they've done something to change that.

I've noticed the same. I always had the spring frequency very high because I found the cars a lot smoother with less body roll, and I preferred it that way, but I had heard that cars were almost always faster on soft suspension, even with slick tyres. I'm guessing that's no longer the case. The update seems to have dramatically increased body roll on road cars, even when stiffened.

 

[Talon16]

I had the same issue. I put a suspension on mine, but didnt lower it any more than what just adding the suspension itself did.

I thought I was clipping grass during braking but yea, the car just wanted to jerk to the left... to the point where I lost the car and the FFB felt odd. Just wanted to add I experienced something similar with this car.

 

[CarreraGT]

Skill issue imo.

My cars, including the M3, are just fine. I think some people maybe frustrared their favorite tuned cars suck now so they Just say the whole game sucks. Someone said associative coherence going on, Its true.

Also, This update is important for GT, its actually showing how they are not catering to the casual family but more towards making a good sim.

Not a skill issue.

For example, I have now discovered that the rear wing is critical for the E36. In stock form (no wing or stock, low-rise= wing), the car is completely uncontrollable through the dip at fuchsröhre at the Nordschleife and very sketchy in a number of other locations. With GT wing fitted, it's completely fine. In reality, the GT wing generates bugger all downforce in real life.

For reference, I drive an E36 M3 (with low-rise wing) and have tracked it a number of times, and it is very neutral in stock form. If anything, BMW's switch from square to staggered rims from the 3.0 to 3.2 gave the car a slight understeer bias (as was intended). So the rear instability of the stock car in GT7 is not realistic.

As I said previously, I think the update generally takes the game in the right direction but there are some weird sensitivities in the aero / tyre modelling that need to be resolved for certain cars.

 

[lbpomg95]

Aero balance has always been an issue in GT7. Take any car without downforce at high speed and it'll float like it's on an ice-lake if it doesn't have aggressive settings to combat it.

 

[ShiftingGears]

There is also weird behaviour in low speed corners with other cars where the front wheels just bite below a certain speed. Nothing gradual, just the front tyres gripping up inexplicably.

Extremely flawed

 

[km666]

Tbf the e36 can be a bit unruly irl, the following two generations were huge step-ups in terms of grip and predictability towards the limits. Lots of folk get caught out in far humbler versions of the e36 than the M3.

 

[lbpomg95]

There is also weird behaviour in low speed corners with other cars where the front wheels just bite below a certain speed. Nothing gradual, just the front tyres gripping up inexplicably.

Extremely flawed

Trying raising or stiffening the front suspension. From the testing that I've done, the cause appears to be that this update has effectively just turned body roll up, particularly on road cars.

So, when you fit fully customisable suspension, the car is automatically lowered, but the natural frequency is pretty much the same as stock. So you have a low car that leans a lot more than it used to, so when you brake and turn, the front wheels load up, touch the arches, and then can't move until the front end lifts off the arches, when suddenly you get full lock, or the bite you describe.

Not necessarily a glitch or unrealistic, but definitely an oversight on PD's part for leaving the natural frequency low on upgraded suspension kits, especially now that they've basically just dialled up body roll.

I'll be honest, I hate these physics. I really don't care if its more realistic, because no matter how much you stiffen or reinforce some cars, they are still a wobbly, wallowy mess. It makes some cars undrivable and un-tameable where it used to be possible. That's not fun, and Gran Turismo is supposed to be fun. Where do you draw the line between fun and supposed realism?

 

[Meythia]

supposed realism?

I dont think it is realistic that a team of mechanics would follow on your wished setup when this setup causes the tyres to hit the wheel arcs regularly.
I think it would be much more realistic when said team of mechanics informs you about this and then asks you if you are sure you want it like this or as low as possible without this problem to occure - and it would be more fun because you dont waste time in "setup, save, load track, test, error, repeat until fine".

 

[mynameis66]

There is also weird behaviour in low speed corners with other cars where the front wheels just bite below a certain speed. Nothing gradual, just the front tyres gripping up inexplicably.

Extremely flawed

Yeah but its a skill issue according to some,dont you know.

 

[Old_Richard]

I've noticed the same. I always had the spring frequency very high because I found the cars a lot smoother with less body roll, and I preferred it that way, but I had heard that cars were almost always faster on soft suspension, even with slick tyres. I'm guessing that's no longer the case. The update seems to have dramatically increased body roll on road cars, even when stiffe

Trying raising or stiffening the front suspension. From the testing that I've done, the cause appears to be that this update has effectively just turned body roll up, particularly on road cars.

So, when you fit fully customisable suspension, the car is automatically lowered, but the natural frequency is pretty much the same as stock. So you have a low car that leans a lot more than it used to, so when you brake and turn, the front wheels load up, touch the arches, and then can't move until the front end lifts off the arches, when suddenly you get full lock, or the bite you describe.

Not necessarily a glitch or unrealistic, but definitely an oversight on PD's part for leaving the natural frequency low on upgraded suspension kits, especially now that they've basically just dialled up body roll.

I'll be honest, I hate these physics. I really don't care if its more realistic, because no matter how much you stiffen or reinforce some cars, they are still a wobbly, wallowy mess. It makes some cars undrivable and un-tameable where it used to be possible. That's not fun, and Gran Turismo is supposed to be fun. Where do you draw the line between fun and supposed realism?

Hi... I've mentioned the other day that spring rates need to go up following the patch (and roll bars setting possibly too), but I thought I'd mention my experience with the Ford GT40 Mk1....
This is one of my favorite cars and I've got a 580pp historic spec and an 700pp spec on it that utilises all the same aero parts and can easily be switched between. Both are on Race Hard tyres. Following the update both were slightly under pp so I tweaked the power up and the wing settings slightly to bring them to 580 and 700 respectively. I then took the 580 to the Nurburgring historic 580 race. My previous best time was 7.34 (I don't claim to be particularly good at this game by the way but I have got nearly 1500 podium finishes in single player, so I'm very consistent), the first lap I did a 7.40 and I noted how the car felt like it was 'floating' a lot.
So I set about retuning the suspension. To cut a long story short I ended up back at my original settings and have just broken my previous record, managing a 7.29 and a 7.28 round the ring with just 580pp. The 700pp variant is also still spot on.
Two thing I'm pointing out here:
1) the new tyres do have a bit less feel than before and take a bit of getting used to
2) while some cars definitely need some major set up changes not all cars do (certainly not the GT40 Mk1)

 

[lbpomg95]

Hi... I've mentioned the other day that spring rates need to go up following the patch (and roll bars setting possibly too), but I thought I'd mention my experience with the Ford GT40 Mk1....
This is one of my favorite cars and I've got a 580pp historic spec and an 700pp spec on it that utilises all the same aero parts and can easily be switched between. Both are on Race Hard tyres. Following the update both were slightly under pp so I tweaked the power up and the wing settings slightly to bring them to 580 and 700 respectively. I then took the 580 to the Nurburgring historic 580 race. My previous best time was 7.34 (I don't claim to be particularly good at this game by the way but I have got nearly 1500 podium finishes in single player, so I'm very consistent), the first lap I did a 7.40 and I noted how the car felt like it was 'floating' a lot.
So I set about retuning the suspension. To cut a long story short I ended up back at my original settings and have just broken my previous record, managing a 7.29 and a 7.28 round the ring with just 580pp. The 700pp variant is also still spot on.
Two thing I'm pointing out here:
1) the new tyres do have a bit less feel than before
2) while some cars definitely need some major set up changes not all cars do (certainly not the GT40 Mk1)

I've noticed a few cars, particularly those tuned to 700pp (in other words, not even close to fully upgraded) are driving just as fantastic as they did before. But most of the cars I have at full tilt are worse than before, and like I mentioned previously, I've always run cars with high natural frequency, pre update, let alone now.

It's just how inconsistent this update is. Some cars like my C4 corvette tuned to 700PP is an absolute dream to drive, race cars seem to have improved across the board, my Ford Mark IV '67 is on rails out of the box, smooth as silk, and yet many cars, particularly those that were already challenging once maxed are now pretty much impossible. Believe it or not, I had managed to get the K20-swapped Abarth 595 to a point where it was actually just about manageable before the update, and now there's just no saving it. Partly because it can't be stiffened enough. It just wobbles all over the place, and many other cars do, too.

I agree with you on the floaty feeling, though. Road cars really don't feel like they have any weight once above a certain speed.

 

[Old_Richard]

I've noticed a few cars, particularly those tuned to 700pp (in other words, not even close to fully upgraded) are driving just as fantastic as they did before. But most of the cars I have at full tilt are worse than before, and like I mentioned previously, I've always run cars with high natural frequency, pre update, let alone now.

It's just how inconsistent this update is. Some cars like my C4 corvette tuned to 700PP is an absolute dream to drive, race cars seem to have improved across the board, my Ford Mark IV '67 is on rails out of the box, smooth as silk, and yet many cars, particularly those that were already challenging once maxed are now pretty much impossible. Believe it or not, I had managed to get the K20-swapped Abarth 595 to a point where it was actually just about manageable before the update, and now there's just no saving it. Partly because it can't be stiffened enough. It just wobbles all over the place, and many other cars do, too.

I agree with you on the floaty feeling, though. Road cars really don't feel like they have any weight once above a certain speed.

Agree it seems inconsistent, and that's just on road cars. I'm away for a few days now and will take a look at the race cars when I'm back.

 

[Mafio]

Or maybe...all cars are not created equal. Even if you try.🤷‍♂️

 

[MineralBlurb7]

So don’t use the brakes.

 

[Galvston]

We go for Realism.

Pindamonhangaba in Brazil stands with you PD! 📍

 

[mynameis66]

I don't think I've had this issue with the stock car, but will check, it when it has been tuned up with it straight six engine or had the LS7 engine swap done to it. It was defo not like this pre-update!!!

The car needs to be patched as I do love it and wanna drive it alot in the game!

The '97 M3 only arrived with this update, are you confusing it with one of the later models maybe?
Stock suspension I found better than a race suspension, though it needs some fettling.

 

[ZEE]

The '97 M3 only arrived with this update, are you confusing it with one of the later models maybe?
Stock suspension I found better than a race suspension, though it needs some fettling.

No I am refering to the '97 E36 BMW M3, i have the older and newer E92 V8 one too, so I mucked about with it today and tried your suggestion of stock suspension, it seemed to be strangely much bettter at my Tsukaba shakedown and behaved much more natural, so it's wierd why it does this. Surely the Full tuned cud be better with the right modification?

yet to also test my other one with the LS7 V8 engine swap.

Well I will play around with it a bit more tomo and see.

 

[dchoi0720]

The car is not broken or undrivable, it's simply not got a good set-up. Here's a shameless plug for my video that explains what can cause the car to drive like it has a personality disorder and shows some set-up sheets that give it more stable handling, including with 1200hp.

Lol thanks for the vid. I tuned the car per your specs and i can actually drive up eau rouge/raidillon without smashing into the left hand barry r now 🙏

 

[ShiftingGears]

Trying raising or stiffening the front suspension. From the testing that I've done, the cause appears to be that this update has effectively just turned body roll up, particularly on road cars.

So, when you fit fully customisable suspension, the car is automatically lowered, but the natural frequency is pretty much the same as stock. So you have a low car that leans a lot more than it used to, so when you brake and turn, the front wheels load up, touch the arches, and then can't move until the front end lifts off the arches, when suddenly you get full lock, or the bite you describe.

Not necessarily a glitch or unrealistic, but definitely an oversight on PD's part for leaving the natural frequency low on upgraded suspension kits, especially now that they've basically just dialled up body roll.

I'll be honest, I hate these physics. I really don't care if its more realistic, because no matter how much you stiffen or reinforce some cars, they are still a wobbly, wallowy mess. It makes some cars undrivable and un-tameable where it used to be possible. That's not fun, and Gran Turismo is supposed to be fun. Where do you draw the line between fun and supposed realism?

Unfortunately I only do league racing and sport mode, so that isn't an option for me.

GT's league appeal is in the plug and play crowd, frankly Assetto Corsa Competizione scratches the itch for a lot of the top GT guys who want to dial in a set-up.

 

[fifaburgio]

The car is not broken or undrivable, it's simply not got a good set-up. Here's a shameless plug for my video that explains what can cause the car to drive like it has a personality disorder and shows some set-up sheets that give it more stable handling, including with 1200hp.

Thanks finaly a Setup that is usefull for the E36. The Car is better to drive. You can control it to the limit without lose control. A Setup to work with. 👍🙏

The Physics are very Good no question. Its now a Setup thing. Now all old Setups are useless but not for all Cars some one work with the new Physics very well.

 

[Galvston]

Thanks finaly a Setup that is usefull for the E36. The Car is better to drive. You can control it to the limit without lose control. A Setup to work with. 👍🙏

The Physics are very Good no question. Its now a Setup thing. Now all old Setups are useless but not for all Cars some one work with the new Physics very well.

Exactly. More thought has to be put onto the setups, because the suspension makes more of an effect

 

[Old_Richard]

Thanks finaly a Setup that is usefull for the E36. The Car is better to drive. You can control it to the limit without lose control. A Setup to work with. 👍🙏

The Physics are very Good no question. Its now a Setup thing. Now all old Setups are useless but not for all Cars some one work with the new Physics very well.

For this weeks porsche cup challenge I just dug out the Porsche 959 and started a tune from scratch. Couldn't get a really decent note out of it before, but it's pretty good now.