The case agaisnt online leader boards, credit rewards and the like.

[Ghoa$t]

Why are the leaderboards needed?

Fastest lap leaderboards is redundant, whoever owns an F1 will just go set them all by making a lounge of every track then doing a few laps.. Credits and XP is whats needed. Also everyone who participates in a race should get an amount, so people don't just frickin bail when they are losing. Also bonuses for no damage/clean driving.

See the Gran Turismo 5: Prologue section of this forum. You guys think that people on this site actually played the game for 2+ years on the strength of the single player part alone? IF it weren't for online the game would have been shelved within a week. Online racing is tons more competitive and tons more fun than single player will ever be.

Why? The whole point of online is avoiding GT Life. No one should be forced to play that mode. And restricting entrance to online isn't a good idea. The game is there to be played.

Online should just be its own thing. What hurts it more than anything is being linked to GT mode. Just let the burning ship sink.

This!

 

[Exorcet]

Disagree. Obviously people can still race casually online without earning anything. But if you want rewards, you still need to go through A spec mode or we'll get boatloads of people who jump online without learning how to race and it will turn into a crashfest. This is exactly why everyone is afraid of competitive online racing in GT5 because everyone will treat it like bumper cars. If you want the dough to race competitively online, learn to race offline and collect enough money for the buy-in. Once you run out of money from racing online, obviously you are crappy and need to learn how to drive, so this will force you to go through A spec. This will filter out stupid racers who will crash into anything and everything while ruining it for everyone else.

Offline promotes poor driving more than anything. It's a bunch of short races vs cars that aren't necessarily fair without qualification. And there's no damage. Someone who isn't good at driving can just put 2 and 2 together and ram his way through the races.

Alternatively, without restrictions, it becomes easy to get into the habit of winning through tuning. Obviously, this can't be allowed online, and when the pressure is on to win, the lack of skill might show.

What would be best is just let the new drivers online and let them learn how to drive properly from the beginning. Set up races aimed at them, and the honest ones will likely flock to them. The bashers who invade rooms to cause havoc should just be dealt with via room vote to kick.

This will filter out stupid racers who will crash into anything and everything

It certainly won't. Anyone who does that isn't interested in money because that's not how you win a race. Also, playing A spec won't change their habits.

Also consider that the number of people who profit from a buy in race will be small. You won't be punishing bad drivers, only the drivers not in first or second, regardless of their skill. This removes the point of online credits in the first place.

 

[jjohan35]

Offline promotes poor driving more than anything. It's a bunch of short races vs cars that aren't necessarily fair without qualification. And there's no damage. Someone who isn't good at driving can just put 2 and 2 together and ram his way through the races.

What would be best is just let the new drivers online and let them learn how to drive properly from the beginning. Set up races aimed at them, and the honest ones will likely flock to them. The bashers who invade rooms to cause havoc should just be dealt with via room vote to kick.

It certainly won't. Anyone who does that isn't interested in money because that's not how you win a race. Also, playing A spec won't change their habits.

You think they should learn how to drive via online. I disagree with that. I think by forcing them to drive offline as well as online, they are spending twice as much time driving period which should improve their driving ability rather than causing havoc for everyone else in the race. By having something to lose, it will give them an incentive to actually try to win instead of crashing and screwing around. If they screw around, they will eventually run out of money. What you are proposing offers zero loss, all gain. What I am proposing offers some level of loss to discourage poor driving and encourage time spent driving whether it's offline or online.

Also consider that the number of people who profit from a buy in race will be small. You won't be punishing bad drivers, only the drivers not in first or second, regardless of their skill. This removes the point of online credits in the first place.

What's wrong with rewarding the top half of the racers? Out of 16 racers, the 8th player gets exactly what he/she put in for buy-in. And any rank higher than that gets a higher increment.

So far I haven't read a suggestion in this thread that sounds practical or good at all. A lot of people in here are knocking down ideas without offering any ideas. The online community will die out if it remains the way it currently is.

Alternatively, without restrictions, it becomes easy to get into the habit of winning through tuning. Obviously, this can't be allowed online, and when the pressure is on to win, the lack of skill might show.

This does not apply to anything I've suggested.

 

[BlackIce90]

ok what should be done to make sure people dont turn into online races into bumper cars. they should give everyone who participates in an online event the same amount of Credits but depending on your position you will get more or less XP. im sure people will be less aggressive over XP then with Credits. so in a race of 10 people first and last place get the same amount of credits so say 10,000 Cr. but first will get 2,000 XP and last will get 100 XP. that way people wont go crazy over the credits but the fact that you get more xp if your first should keep the races closes and competative but less of a bumper cars sort of race.

also the fact that you get a decent reward for just finishing the race, people will want to stay in the race rather then quit when they are in last.

 

[Tornado]

I can't personally stand behind any idea that forces you to do anything in single player to have fun in multiplayer when the single player is currently an unfinished mess. And the "but they'd need to get money to pay in" idea falls apart anyways because GT5 still has B-Spec, and B-Spec can still be used as a money sponge. Forcing players to pay in would do absolutely nothing to deter griefers because griefers would just dump time into B-Spec instead.

All such a system would do is hurt the people who aren't the best drivers, or can't be the best drivers because they lack the equipment (ie. a wheel) to be so.

 

[coyote_green]

I keep hearing this "no money out of thin air" argument, and frankly I don't get it. You get money out of thin air when you are in A-spec mode, right? Unless I am wrong I get money for completing a race. Where does THAT money come from? I don't know, it is just there suddenly. I won, now I have money. Maybe it is ticket sales. Maybe it is sponsorships and television revenue. I don't know. Cars come out of no where too. Why is it such a stretch to just see that a race is a race is a race?

Let the mod set a minimum exp level, that way those more advanced can keep out the noobs (and hopefully the lazier bashers) and let the Noobs have lower exp settings so they can get used to running online with real people. Higher levels get more money, just like in A-spec.

I guess I just don't understand how running against AI is considered more authentic than online. By far my best runs have been online, and the races are much harder.

 

[denim747leather]

The question is, is there anything going to be done to make GT5 online racing more interesting or not ?

Im hopeing there is

 

[Piket]

See the Gran Turismo 5: Prologue section of this forum. You guys think that people on this site actually played the game for 2+ years on the strength of the single player part alone? IF it weren't for online the game would have been shelved within a week. Online racing is tons more competitive and tons more fun than single player will ever be.

Yes indeed. But that was because online races in prologue sucked and eventually died off leaving us with only the TT's challenge for almost a year,even more.

Online leaderboards in prologue had a bad impact on the game. They moved the interest form the actual racing,to hot-lapping. But racing isn't about getting the pole position,it is about controlling your pace, minimizing your mistakes,make the right choices etc.

Now that we have private rooms,and a good bunch of tracks to choose from,and qualifying(sort of),and personally selected restrictions and rules, now the online races can be as good as they could ever be,as long as you avoid the open lobby.

I have already experienced some great races in GT5,legendary i would say, that have revealed my true strenghts and weaknesses in racing and Gran Turismo is getting a ton more interesting day by day. Therefore i don't see this horendous need for online leaderboards. If your focus is to show off your speed globally then i'm sorry for you.

 

[Ozmondo]

I agree and also believe that it's open to exploiting but I think your idea about paying credits to race online is awesome!

5000 per race?

 

[Imari]

So basically you think that people who enjoy hotlapping should instead be forced to play the game your way.

That's fantastic. Best of luck with that.

 

[Obli]

The top leaderboard times in GT5rologue (and the GT Academy demo) had ghosts that could be downloaded / replays that could be viewed. If there was a means to report a cheat to a moderator and for a cheat time to be removed, that would be great. Not sure how feasible this is though, thinking about all the car / track combinations and the amount of replays that could need viewing! Replays would certainly need a fast forward / rewind function *hint hint, PD!*

 

[Piket]

So basically you think that people who enjoy hotlapping should instead be forced to play the game your way.

That's fantastic. Best of luck with that.

No i believe that we shouldn't be demanding online leaderboards when they have already produced a more than fine online mode(private rooms) to satisfy racing fans.

 

[Exorcet]

You think they should learn how to drive via online. I disagree with that. I think by forcing them to drive offline as well as online, they are spending twice as much time driving period which should improve their driving ability rather than causing havoc for everyone else in the race. By having something to lose, it will give them an incentive to actually try to win instead of crashing and screwing around. If they screw around, they will eventually run out of money. What you are proposing offers zero loss, all gain. What I am proposing offers some level of loss to discourage poor driving and encourage time spent driving whether it's offline or online.

People have a finite play time. Forcing them to go offline won't make them drive any more than if they could only play online. It just divides their time. And again, GT Life is not necessarily constructive when it comes to improving driving skills. Look at this situation:

-Person goes online, races, he isn't very good [though is clean], he loses
-Now he has no money and must play GT Life, which he obviously didn't want to do. He could drive clean to make his money back, but it would probably be easier to just overpower the AI with supertuned cars and demolition derby driving.
-Person earns money and is back online. Because he was offline earning money, he hasn't improved his driving much at all.
-Cycle repeats

VS

-Person goes online, sees beginner race series. He isn't very good, but neither are most other racers. He has a fun race, earns some money no matter what position he finished.
-He likes online and continues playing, enjoying himself and getting better all the while.
-Eventually he becomes better at driving, and moves on.

GT Life is characterised by the need to win. You are expected to win a race to have really completed it. That's not how racing works. People need to be conditioned into accepting 4th, 5th, 6th, etc place finishes as accomplishments. They need to get away from the GT Life mentality and get a real racing mentality. It comes from a properly set up online mode.

Make beginner friendly events where the payout is nearly even no matter what position you finish in. Make it OK to finish outside of the top half of the pack so that people don't get desperate once they're out of third place.

Also about this:

By having something to lose, it will give them an incentive to actually try to win instead of crashing and screwing around.

What if it encourages cheating? Shortcuts, blocking, etc. You are not going to force dishonest people into being honest. People have nothing to gain in GT5's online right now and some of them cheat already. Why would your idea force fair play?

It will do even less for those who aren't even racing, but just want to ruin your day. And if you get nailed by them while they drive backwards, and you end up nearly in last, now you've just lost money. That's not going to feel very good.

What's wrong with rewarding the top half of the racers? Out of 16 racers, the 8th player gets exactly what he/she put in for buy-in. And any rank higher than that gets a higher increment.

What's wrong is that GT Life is terrible, and that you should not have to touch it to go online. Also, there is no reason to subtract from people's funds just because they aren't very good at driving. They'll be forced into GT Life instead of learning the game online by interacting with good drivers. They payout should be good regardless of position so that people don't feel like they need to win for the race to be worth it.

During my time in GT5P, I ran across a few people who genuinely wanted to learn how to drive. They could do well enough offline judging by their cars, but offline only taught them so much. I brought them into online races and showed them how to drive. It wasn't a F1 driving academy, but it worked and it was good fun.

So far I haven't read a suggestion in this thread that sounds practical or good at all. A lot of people in here are knocking down ideas without offering any ideas. The online community will die out if it remains the way it currently is.

See my post on page 1.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136310#post4253852

Knocking down ideas worse than the status quo is acceptable anyway (I'm speaking in general).

This does not apply to anything I've suggested.

Yes it does. GT Life allows for skill less wins through super tuned cars 99% of the time. There's even B Spec to allow wins without even driving a car.

 

[Ghoa$t]

Yes indeed. But that was because online races in prologue sucked and eventually died off leaving us with only the TT's challenge for almost a year,even more.

Online leaderboards in prologue had a bad impact on the game. They moved the interest form the actual racing,to hot-lapping. But racing isn't about getting the pole position,it is about controlling your pace, minimizing your mistakes,make the right choices etc.

Now that we have private rooms,and a good bunch of tracks to choose from,and qualifying(sort of),and personally selected restrictions and rules, now the online races can be as good as they could ever be,as long as you avoid the open lobby.

I have already experienced some great races in GT5,legendary i would say, that have revealed my true strenghts and weaknesses in racing and Gran Turismo is getting a ton more interesting day by day. Therefore i don't see this horendous need for online leaderboards. If your focus is to show off your speed globally then i'm sorry for you.

I'd rather race than hot lap, and no thats not my focus but why should it be left out just because its not of interest to you? what do you have against online leaderboards? whats wrong with fair competition with other top drivers from around the world? It seems like you want GT5 to regress from GT5

Oh and even though the online in prologue was barebones, we had loads of great racing.

 

[Exorcet]

No i believe that we shouldn't be demanding online leaderboards when they have already produced a more than fine online mode(private rooms) to satisfy racing fans.

I'm going to have to disagree. I don't feel that leaderboards are needed, but I don't see a reason not to have them. The leaderboards would probably just attract the time trial drivers. The racers would stay put. I know I wouldn't invest much time in setting laps. I remained with GT5P's online races all the way through. It was the best part of the game from beginning to end.

 

[Imari]

No i believe that we shouldn't be demanding online leaderboards when they have already produced a more than fine online mode(private rooms) to satisfy racing fans.

Right.

Private rooms are only a part of a standard online package for racing games. Almost all recent online racing games will also include public rooms (for those without enough friends to organise private rooms, or who just want a quick game) and leaderboards (for those who wish to hone their skills at a particular track/car combination, or who simply enjoy playing alone).

I'll admit that if you're going to choose only one of these, then private rooms is probably the one to pick. But it's really doing the customers a disservice to not have these features, particularly as they WERE included in GT5P.

Right now, I'm practicing alone in preparation for a SuperGT race later this evening. I'm running laps around Suzuka trying to get myself comfortable with the car and the different lines that I can take. I don't want to be in a room with other people as I'm trying a lot of experimental stuff and I'd just mess them up. It'd be real nice if my clean laps were going onto a leaderboard so that I can judge how fast my pace is relative to my peers though. At the moment I've only been able to compare times with one other person in the race, who is driving a car that is significantly more powerful than my own and thus isn't really a good comparison at all.

It's little things like that that can really add to the experience online.

 

[Piket]

I'd rather race than hot lap, and no thats not my focus but why should it be left out just because its not of interest to you? what do you have against online leaderboards? whats wrong with fair competition with other top drivers from around the world? It seems like you want GT5 to regress from GT5

Oh and even though the online in prologue was barebones, we had loads of great racing.

If you think prologue was great racing, you will be greatly surprised by GT5. You obviously haven't found a really competitive race and that's why you still have thoughts concerning online leaderboards..

Oh and i don't have much against online leaderboards,they just don't reflect any aspect of real life racing as you have unlimited time and weird setups. Qualifying is a more than enough subsitute as far as i am concerned.

Right.

Private rooms are only a part of a standard online package for racing games. Almost all recent online racing games will also include public rooms (for those without enough friends to organise private rooms, or who just want a quick game) and leaderboards (for those who wish to hone their skills at a particular track/car combination, or who simply enjoy playing alone).

I'll admit that if you're going to choose only one of these, then private rooms is probably the one to pick. But it's really doing the customers a disservice to not have these features, particularly as they WERE included in GT5P.

Right now, I'm practicing alone in preparation for a SuperGT race later this evening. I'm running laps around Suzuka trying to get myself comfortable with the car and the different lines that I can take. I don't want to be in a room with other people as I'm trying a lot of experimental stuff and I'd just mess them up. It'd be real nice if my clean laps were going onto a leaderboard so that I can judge how fast my pace is relative to my peers though. At the moment I've only been able to compare times with one other person in the race, who is driving a car that is significantly more powerful than my own and thus isn't really a good comparison at all.

It's little things like that that can really add to the experience online.

You'll figure out if you're slow or fast during Qualifying.

 

[Ghoa$t]

If you think prologue was great racing, you will be greatly surprised by GT5. You obviously haven't found a really competitive race and that's why you still have thoughts concerning online leaderboards..

Oh and i don't have much against online leaderboards,they just don't reflect any aspect of real life racing as you have unlimited time and weird setups. Qualifying is a more than enough subsitute as far as i am concerned.

You'll figure out if you're slow or fast during Qualifying.

Hilarious.

I have found really great and competitive online racing in GT5 but very few of them match the the level of racing me and countless other GTP members had in prologue. It seems like a lot of people on this forum are completely ignorant about the online racing that was done here during GT5.

 

[Piket]

Hilarious.

I have found really great and competitive online racing in GT5 but very few of them match the the level of racing me and countless other GTP members had in prologue. It seems like a lot of people on this forum are completely ignorant about the online racing that was done here during GT5.

You don't consider that some of us may not be as fast as you and will prefer a race where all racers are in similar level and not the organized GTP events which are packed with racers of a certain level.

 

[Ghoa$t]

You don't consider that some of us may not be as fast as you and will prefer a race where all racers are in similar level and not the organized GTP events which are packed with racers of a certain level.

It has nothing to do with how fast you are. Thats why GTP is split up into 4 divisions. No one is left out. You can find members that are just as fast as you, that way you can have just as much fun as the faster drivers. Your point is moot.

 

[Piket]

It has nothing to do with how fast you are. Thats why GTP is split up into 4 divisions. No one is left out. You can find members that are just as fast as you, that way you can have just as much fun as the faster drivers. Your point is moot.

Well it seems like we are off-topic. It was nice debating with you.

 

[Imari]

You'll figure out if you're slow or fast during Qualifying.

No I won't, because while the cars in GT500 are similar they are not equal. All the cars in this race are unique. I may finish at the back of the field, and that may be a good result. Or I may finish first by ten seconds, yet that might be a poor result for the car that I'm driving.

How should I judge my performance without a solid benchmark of other players in an identical situation to compare to?

Also, I agree with drama-kyd. Good racing was had during Prologue. It's better in some ways now, but worse in others.

 

[Piket]

No I won't, because while the cars in GT500 are similar they are not equal. All the cars in this race are unique. I may finish at the back of the field, and that may be a good result. Or I may finish first by ten seconds, yet that might be a poor result for the car that I'm driving.

How should I judge my performance without a solid benchmark of other players in an identical situation to compare to?

Also, I agree with drama-kyd. Good racing was had during Prologue. It's better in some ways now, but worse in others.

That's why i only race one-make races.

 

[RzB]

Well while one make races are fun it is also fun to have everyone useing something different and see how it all turns out. Like some friends of mine have been having 7-10 lap enduros at the Nurburgring, we all use a supercar/race car just for fun.(I always use my SuperVeloce, quite the handful at the 'Ring) As long as people are cool with the fact that someone might a have a slight edge on wheight or power it's not a big deal. I mean I beat a guy in a 908 Puegeot with my lambo. Depends on the situation, yeah there are definantly some boring rooms like everyone in a Veyron at daytona but I just avoid those. As long as the racing is clean, I find just about any type of set up fun.

 

[Destinkeys]

The one thing is that I see little mention of is damage...

This changes the online experience radically. You payed a fortune for your car. You take it to the online track and someone totals it. Maybe even you! Where does the money come from to fix it? Races with damage enabled, you HAVE to earn credits. Right at the moment, you HAVE to grind to earn credits. Be a whole lot more fun if, in one design lobbies, contact penalties and track cutting penalties were enabled, full damage mode on, and you made a decent amount of money for a top five position.

In fairness, the S Level License Tests are the BEST racing I've had on this game so far. Tough opponents, clean racing enforced rigorously, got to drive your 🤬 off to get the gold, no being able to out muscle your opponents.

If they could make random races online JUST like this, this game is going to have a great online life.