The definition/meaning of over and under steer

[Adrenaline]

I can change the example to GTAcademy finalist R1600Turbo and GTAcademy almost-finalist outlaw4rc.

R1600Turbo prefers tighter more under-steery cars than pretty much any D1 driver I know.
outlaw4rc prefers looser cars than most non-D1G drivers I know.

But it's not about preference, it's about definition, so when R1600 drops a comment on a car being too "loose" it actually translates to "great" for the rest of us.

Surely we can see how this leaves a blank on how the car actually performs, yet the drivers are relatively identical in terms of both pace and consistency.

How a tune, relates to a specific driver, doesn't alter the definition of under or oversteer, because again, it all circles back to steering angle.

It seems you're focused on defining a "car" as under or oversteering, not the actual term. In which case, it's futile, because it's 100% open to interpretation, based on driver skill, line, apex, speed, braking input, accelerate input, preference, etc and so on.

In conclusion, if your thesis is that we should not define a specific 'car' or 'tune' as under or over steering, then... I'd say I understand your point, but I still disagree. If I can't verbalize the fact that, in my hands, your car/tune under/oversteers, how else can I explain what is actually occurring while on track?

Tl;dr Under/Oversteer are relative terms to the driver, not the car/tune.

Just keep a mental note if CSLACR says "over-steer" or "under-steer" he means the car, not "for him".

How in the world can you classify that, if not without SOME drivers input, in which case, the terms are again 'for him' regardless of whether it's you or Joe the Driver?

 

[XDesperado67]

You can define a cars handling in terms of understeer and oversteer within a given set of parameters that will hold constant across all drivers, but doing so takes you back to the cars grip and the balance of that grip between front and rear.
Example Car A can turn a continuous circle at 40mph without changing steering lock.
Car B cannot maintain a continuous circle but spirals outward at 40mph (understeers) because it has less relative front end grip.
Car C will enter a drift or spin out and the circle may get smaller (oversteer) at 40mph because the rear has less relative rear end grip.

These things will stay consistent regardless of driver skill. How they are dealt with and the drivers perception of the three cars are a function of the drivers skill and preferences to a certain degree.

Problem is we aren't on a controlled skidpad environment so much of the feedback will be more subjective.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Long story short I don't actually think controller choice has much effect at all.

Wow. We will have to disagree on that. I currently tune with both the DS3 and the G27 and there are subltle differences needed in tunes to achieve the same lap times.

 

[CSLACR]

How a tune, relates to a specific driver, doesn't alter the definition of under or oversteer, because again, it all circles back to steering angle.

It seems you're focused on defining a "car" as under or oversteering, not the actual term. In which case, it's futile, because it's 100% open to interpretation, based on driver skill, line, apex, speed, braking input, accelerate input, preference, etc and so on.

In conclusion, if your thesis is that we should not define a specific 'car' or 'tune' as under or over steering, then... I'd say I understand your point, but I still disagree. If I can't verbalize the fact that, in my hands, your car/tune under/oversteers, how else can I explain what is actually occurring while on track?

Tl;dr Under/Oversteer are relative terms to the driver, not the car/tune.


How in the world can you classify that, if not without SOME drivers input, in which case, the terms are again 'for him' regardless of whether it's you or Joe the Driver?

Personally I don't find it incredibly difficult to discern the difference.
I'd say generally speaking on TT's, I run fairly heavily over-steering setups, (but the rear isn't always sliding out - hint), and for races very mild under-steer, unless aero/PP is a factor, in which case they tend to be looser.

The hint above is the difference between "definitions", if we can call them both that. Just because the rear isn't sliding out doesn't mean the car doesn't over-steer, or the opposite. If I based my opinion on over-steer to the limitations of what I would control, well, my definition would be different than your definition, whose definition would be different than other guy's definition, etc, etc, etc.

You can define a cars handling in terms of understeer and oversteer within a given set of parameters that will hold constant across all drivers, but doing so takes you back to the cars grip and the balance of that grip between front and rear.
Example Car A can turn a continuous circle at 40mph without changing steering lock.
Car B cannot maintain a continuous circle but spirals outward at 40mph (understeers) because it has less relative front end grip.
Car C will enter a drift or spin out and the circle may get smaller (oversteer) at 40mph because the rear has less relative rear end grip.

These things will stay consistent regardless of driver skill. How they are dealt with and the drivers perception of the three cars are a function of the drivers skill and preferences to a certain degree.

Problem is we aren't on a controlled skidpad environment so much of the feedback will be more subjective.

Pretty much that.
I do agree it's "more" difficult than on a skid pad, but not to call it "difficult".

The easiest way in general to tell, is steering input required for fast corners. The less you have to steer, for example, through Blanchemont at Spa, or several of the high-speed deathtraps on the Nurburgring, the more over-steer natured the car is.

Wow. We will have to disagree on that. I currently tune with both the DS3 and the G27 and there are subtle differences needed in tunes to achieve the same lap times.

Perhaps you're more skilled with one controller vs the other?
I "mastered" (in my own mind) the DS3 long before I really considered buying a wheel, so it actually took me a while just to get up to speed once I got one.
To this day I'm not convinced I'm any faster or more consistent than I would be without the wheel. Quite possibly less consistent. (over-steer is much more difficult to manage imo with the wheel)

The one thing I would agree is that the DS3 more heavily favors the "slide in-gas out" alien approach regarding tuning, meaning over-steer on entry, without really tuning for exit.(because they'll simply make the car slide in fragments to wherever they desire on exit)

 

[XDesperado67]

@CSLACR what you described as oversteer just now I would call having a twitchy or hyper responsive front end. Such a front end can lead to oversteer especially in less skilled drivers hands but doesn't constitute oversteer by itself.

In real life many of the drivers that tested the McLaren F1 said the car was dangerous, not because of oversteer, understeer or a general lack of lateral grip, but because it had such a hyper responsive front end making the car very sensitive to the slightest input from the driver.

 

[CSLACR]

Blanchemont isn't taken with a simple front end twitch in any car Im aware, bar F1.

Take my Spoon through and then any other car from that shootout besides Praianos and you should see what I mean.

 

[Adrenaline]

Bear with me...

Personally I don't find it incredibly difficult to discern the difference.

Doesn't matter what you discern, because by your "definition", what YOU feel, is irrelevant. The car was pre-designated to under or oversteer before you ever drove it. That's what your goal is, as far as I can tell; to remove the driver from the classification of under/oversteer?

I'd say generally speaking on TT's, I run fairly heavily over-steering setups, (but the rear isn't always sliding out - hint)

No, the hint is 'I' run, meaning that based on YOUR driving, your experience, your results, you believe the car is over-steering. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it contradicts what your argument thus far has been. You're telling us that a driver can't define over/understeer based on feeling, and then you proceed to tell us that you know your car oversteers because... because why? Because you, the driver, feel it does???

The hint above is the difference between "definitions", if we can call them both that. Just because the rear isn't sliding out doesn't mean the car doesn't over-steer, or the opposite. If I based my opinion on over-steer to the limitations of what I would control, well, my definition would be different than your definition, whose definition would be different than other guy's definition, etc, etc, etc.

Whether the rear slides out, or how well you can control it, has no effect on the fact that the car either is, or isn't oversteering. You clearly stated in your OP, that steering angle dictates the term. So, in this example, if the rear slides out, you counter steer, which is a decreased angle, which by definition is oversteer. The same applies even if the rear doesn't slide out, even if you have control of the car. No matter what the car does, or where it does it, there are only 3 outcomes. You either had to increase steering angle, decrease steering angle, or you maintained steering angle. It's that simple as far as I can comprehend.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Under/oversteer in a given situation is entirely dependent on the car/tune.

What situations a driver will put a car into depends on the track and the driver.

I don't get why there's an argument over this.

And really, all you're doing here is making it worse. If a car understeers in a given situation then damn straight it understeers in that situation. If it oversteers in another, it oversteers. Different drivers will find different problems depending on how they drive, it doesn't make any one person's feedback any more or less valuable than the next. What adds value is knowing what that person is doing when the car steps out or pushes wide, so that the situation can be replicated and the tuner can figure out if they can fix it without hurting the car otherwise.

KISS: Oversteer = rear loses grip first, understeer = front loses grip first. Trying to change these definitions does nothing but make it harder for us tuners to figure out what the hell you're trying to say about the car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Seems to me what you guys are getting caught up in is the difference between the technical definition of over/understeer and the practical application of it in the real world. It might be worthwhile to the discussion to separate the textbook definition discussion, from it's practical application as far as tuning and driving goes.

 

[VTiRoj]

I don't get why there's an argument over this.

Because people want to write giant paragraphs like it's a university dissertation.

I'm sure people have an interest in all the technical shiz-whiz behind oversteer and understeer, but for people like me who treat this video game as a video game, I'm happy with the simple definitions offered above.

 

[CSLACR]

Bear with me...


Doesn't matter what you discern, because by your "definition", what YOU feel, is irrelevant. The car was pre-designated to under or oversteer before you ever drove it. That's what your goal is, as far as I can tell; to remove the driver from the classification of under/oversteer?


No, the hint is 'I' run, meaning that based on YOUR driving, your experience, your results, you believe the car is over-steering. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it contradicts what your argument thus far has been. You're telling us that a driver can't define over/understeer based on feeling, and then you proceed to tell us that you know your car oversteers because... because why? Because you, the driver, feel it does???



Whether the rear slides out, or how well you can control it, has no effect on the fact that the car either is, or isn't oversteering. You clearly stated in your OP, that steering angle dictates the term. So, in this example, if the rear slides out, you counter steer, which is a decreased angle, which by definition is oversteer. The same applies even if the rear doesn't slide out, even if you have control of the car. No matter what the car does, or where it does it, there are only 3 outcomes. You either had to increase steering angle, decrease steering angle, or you maintained steering angle. It's that simple as far as I can comprehend.

Wrong, based on how much the car rotates.
Obviously you cannot separate the difference between the two, I however can. I apologize if that's difficult to understand.

I've never once said that the rear sliding out "isn't" over-steer, only that it doesn't have to be cause by an over-steering car. You'd do well to discern the difference, it might help you sort the above. 👍

Under/oversteer in a given situation is entirely dependent on the car/tune.

What situations a driver will put a car into depends on the track and the driver.

I don't get why there's an argument over this.

And really, all you're doing here is making it worse. If a car understeers in a given situation then damn straight it understeers in that situation. If it oversteers in another, it oversteers. Different drivers will find different problems depending on how they drive, it doesn't make any one person's feedback any more or less valuable than the next. What adds value is knowing what that person is doing when the car steps out or pushes wide, so that the situation can be replicated and the tuner can figure out if they can fix it without hurting the car otherwise.

KISS: Oversteer = rear loses grip first, understeer = front loses grip first. Trying to change these definitions does nothing but make it harder for us tuners to figure out what the hell you're trying to say about the car.

Of course, if I had ever said the rear sliding out isn't "over-steer" this post would be a reply to me.

It's about the separation of driver input vs car characteristics.

Ever see someone posting a thread about "help!!! cant control my gt-rr!!" and groan? How about "helpp!! the veryron suckzz understeerrzz!"?
That's the difference between using your own input vs reality.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Of course, if I had ever said the rear sliding out isn't "over-steer" this post would be a reply to me.

*sigh*

It's about the separation of driver input vs car characteristics.

...

what.

what.

just...

what.

Ever see someone posting a thread about "help!!! cant control my gt-rr!!" and groan? How about "helpp!! the veryron suckzz understeerrzz!"?

Yeah, I've seen both, and groaned at both.

That's the difference between using your own input vs reality.

I don't even. Not even once.

 

[Adrenaline]

I changed my mind. In order to move this thread in a productive direction, I pose the following request to you:

Just create a real situation, in game or out, that accurately describes whatever you're talking about. You've yet to do so, and that is the largest issue I have thus far.

 

[CSLACR]

I changed my mind. In order to move this thread in a productive direction, I pose the following request to you:

Just create a real situation, in game or out, that accurately describes whatever you're talking about. You've yet to do so, and that is the largest issue I have thus far.

Remember that USjoedirtjoe or whatever? That scenario.

When he complained that every time he floored the throttle his LMP would spin the wheels and spin out because it was "too loose".
He determined a grossly under-steering car had vicious and uncontrollable over-steer because he didn't take his foot off the throttle.

I'm not expecting everyone changes the way they see things, I'm just suggesting everyone do in order to have not only a more accurate perspective, but also to potentially improve themselves.
You're not going to get faster by making an under-steering vehicle under-steer more, and the difference in viewpoint makes the driver consider their exact inputs on a much more magnified scale.

If I just say, "hey, it over-steers for me, oh well", and toss it to the side, or tighten it up, I'm just staying in my safe zone.
If I say, "hey, this is under-steering and I'm still bringing the rear out, what am I doing wrong"? I may potentially fix, help, or improve upon the problem at hand, instead of simply tuning it away into more under-steer.

That's the difference between using someone's own skills as a basis to define "over-steer" vs using how the car behaves directly.

 

[trackripper123]

Is it just me or are there others that have absolutely no clue what the hell just happened in the past 2 and a half pages?

 

[Adrenaline]

Remember that USjoedirtjoe or whatever? That scenario.

When he complained that every time he floored the throttle his LMP would spin the wheels and spin out because it was "too loose".
He determined a grossly under-steering car had vicious and uncontrollable over-steer because he didn't take his foot off the throttle.

I'm not expecting everyone changes the way they see things, I'm just suggesting everyone do in order to have not only a more accurate perspective, but also to potentially improve themselves.
You're not going to get faster by making an under-steering vehicle under-steer more, and the difference in viewpoint makes the driver consider their exact inputs on a much more magnified scale.

If I just say, "hey, it over-steers for me, oh well", and toss it to the side, or tighten it up, I'm just staying in my safe zone.
If I say, "hey, this is under-steering and I'm still bringing the rear out, what am I doing wrong"? I may potentially fix, help, or improve upon the problem at hand, instead of simply tuning it away into more under-steer.

That's the difference between using someone's own skills as a basis to define "over-steer" vs using how the car behaves directly.

Okay, this is a good starting point.

While I agree with the point you're trying to make, the downfall would be that, in joedirts example, technically he was still experiencing oversteer.
What if you reverse that scenario. Say you take a car, that's OVERsteering.
and when you step on the throttle, it oversteers. Are you still implying the term oversteer is incorrect? What the car does previous to the 'throttle oversteer' doesn't alter the actual issue when the throttle is applied, right?

The reason I feel this way, is because even in 'joes' situation, the correct 'fix' was to add rear grip to the car, under throttle conditions. Do you agree with that?

If your point is, that we need to further diversify what situations a car can or can't under/oversteer, then I'm on board with that.
We need to dictate, that it's not as simple as 'entry' 'exit' and 'center' where issues can occur. That, on throttle, off throttle, under braking, just after releasing the brake, etc, etc. THIS I can get on board with. But altering how we define, or socially use the terms to define what a car is doing, I have to disagree with. Because, again, in joe's situation, his issue was still oversteer, regardless of how the car handled leading up to that 'instance' of oversteer. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

[XDesperado67]

Is it just me or are there others that have absolutely no clue what the hell just happened in the past 2 and a half pages?

Uhm...nope.

@CSLACR after your last couple of posts I now have absolutely no idea what your trying to say/the point your trying to make.

 

[CSLACR]

Okay, this is a good starting point.

While I agree with the point you're trying to make, the downfall would be that, in joedirts example, technically he was still experiencing oversteer.
What if you reverse that scenario. Say you take a car, that's OVERsteering.
and when you step on the throttle, it oversteers. Are you still implying the term oversteer is incorrect? What the car does previous to the 'throttle oversteer' doesn't alter the actual issue when the throttle is applied, right?

The reason I feel this way, is because even in 'joes' situation, the correct 'fix' was to add rear grip to the car, under throttle conditions. Do you agree with that?

If your point is, that we need to further diversify what situations a car can or can't under/oversteer, then I'm on board with that.
We need to dictate, that it's not as simple as 'entry' 'exit' and 'center' where issues can occur. That, on throttle, off throttle, under braking, just after releasing the brake, etc, etc. THIS I can get on board with. But altering how we define, or socially use the terms to define what a car is doing, I have to disagree with. Because, again, in joe's situation, his issue was still oversteer, regardless of how the car handled leading up to that 'instance' of oversteer. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Bold - No.

The correct "fix" lies/lay in the drivers right foot, for that particular problem. There is no tune that will stop a RWD car that is spinning it's wheels from over-steering - literally none. (even a totally open lsd can still end up swinging you around)

This is actually a textbook example of a situation I would say that "over-steer" is an inappropriate term. Not because the car isn't "over-steering" but because it's absolutely misleading on the cars characteristics. By that definition, RWD itself over-steers on exit, and that's nonsense. Wheelspin would be the correct term, not over-steer.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The correct "fix" lies/lay in the drivers right foot, for that particular problem. There is no tune that will stop a RWD car that is spinning it's wheels from over-steering - literally none. (even a totally open lsd can still end up swinging you around)

No, there is no tune that could've entirely fixed the problem he was having.

Does that mean that there was nothing that could be done tune-wise to correct it? No. And really, with an LMP, it's an extremely valid complaint even with reasonable throttle control; on default settings the vast majority of them go from stuck like glue to going backwards towards the fence in an instant with the smallest bit too much throttle.

Now, I don't remember this particular thread and I don't remember what exactly happened, but (and this is just a guess) if someone had suggested settings that do, in fact, minimize the issue and he'd tried them, it would've done a lot more good than GTFO NOOB U SUK GET GOOD.

This is actually a textbook example of a situation I would say that "over-steer" is an inappropriate term. Not because the car isn't "over-steering" but because it's absolutely misleading on the cars characteristics.

How so? It is an accurate representation of the car's characteristics in that situation.

By that definition, RWD itself over-steers on exit, and that's nonsense.

RWD itself does oversteer with excessive throttle input. So does rear-biased AWD. That is not "nonsense", that is fact.

Wheelspin would be the correct term, not over-steer.

No, wheelspin-induced oversteer would be the correct term.

 

[esoxhntr]

I see CSLs point and agree. The 'joe' situation I would not call classic oversteer but exceeding the grip circle due to too much throttle input (lighting up the tires). You may be able to 'fix' it with suspension/ballast/lsd tuning but in all likelyhood you'd neuter the car and hurt it everywhere else. The 'fix' here is to control the throttle better, grippier tires if available or, a healthy dose of TCS.

 

[Goruk]

Does this settle it?



Understeer, you turn, car goes in front, oversteer, you turn, car loses back end, that's it...

 

[Adrenaline]

Does this settle it?

You didn't read the thread, just move along.

The correct "fix" lies/lay in the drivers right foot, for that particular problem. There is no tune that will stop a RWD car that is spinning it's wheels from over-steering - literally none.

Are we speaking as Race Team owners, or as GT5 Tuners?
I can't remove a driver from his car in GT5, but I can alter his tuning settings to help with his specific issue.

So, while I can't prevent 'oversteer while the rear tires are already spinning' I can help prevent the rear tires from breaking loose to begin with, by increasing rear grip under acceleration.

Although admittedly it was far easier to do with the old Ride Height physics than it is in 2.10, but still, point remains.

 

[CSLACR]

No, there is no tune that could've entirely fixed the problem he was having.

Does that mean that there was nothing that could be done tune-wise to correct it? No. And really, with an LMP, it's an extremely valid complaint even with reasonable throttle control; on default settings the vast majority of them go from stuck like glue to going backwards towards the fence in an instant with the smallest bit too much throttle.

Now, I don't remember this particular thread and I don't remember what exactly happened, but (and this is just a guess) if someone had suggested settings that do, in fact, minimize the issue and he'd tried them, it would've done a lot more good than GTFO NOOB U SUK GET GOOD.



How so? It is an accurate representation of the car's characteristics in that situation.



RWD itself does oversteer with excessive throttle input. So does rear-biased AWD. That is not "nonsense", that is fact.



No, wheelspin-induced oversteer would be the correct term.

Wheelspin-induced oversteer, when speaking of a RWD car, is repetitive.
And like I said, the car isn't oversteering, he is. I don't care how good a tuner you think you are, you're not "tuning away" wheelspin on a Sauber C9. If you can't tune away wheelspin, you can't tune away "the over-steer". Going to end up in a minimum front aero/max rear aero overall brick setup that still "oversteers!"
But I guess if you think that's the better approach...

Are we speaking as Race Team owners, or as GT5 Tuners?

So, while I can't prevent 'oversteer while the rear tires are already spinning' I can help prevent the rear tires from breaking loose to begin with, by increasing rear grip under acceleration.

Obviously the joe guy was a stubborn exception, but generally speaking I'd say you can do more by telling someone what's causing the problem exactly, rather than tuning it away.
If your driving is flawed, and you tune every car to match your driving, how will your tunes be? And how much will you improve on difficulty areas if you remove them all by tuning?

Yes, I would argue it's much better to understand the difference between what you perceive as a driver and how it relates to the cars actual nature. If you're under-steering into a corner in an S2000, you probably want to work on your corner entry technique, etc.

 

[Adrenaline]

Obviously the joe guy was a stubborn exception, but generally speaking I'd say you can do more by telling someone what's causing the problem exactly, rather than tuning it away.
If your driving is flawed, and you tune every car to match your driving, how will your tunes be? And how much will you improve on difficulty areas if you remove them all by tuning?

I agree, that if we can teach a driver, clearly that's going to be the most beneficial outcome for all sides included.

But, everyone's driving is flawed in one way or another. You're a D1S driver, and your driving is still flawed, because if it wasn't you'd be D1G. You can't simply start tuning cars that don't work for you, because 'well that's how Amo does it'. Are you implying every car you setup, is tuned to some other drivers preference, and not your own? Do you tune every car with Amo's driving in mind? Because if you don't, then you're admitting that your tunes aren't very good, right? Because you've tuned them all to match your flawed driving?

You used R1600 and Outlaw as examples previously. Are you insinuating that every car they've ever tuned, are bad tunes, because they tuned them to their flawed driving? That they should both be forced to drive 'better tunes' because they'll never get better if they keep tuning to their own personal needs?

 

[CSLACR]

Just a quick question before I head into work. Where did the term "forced" enter the conversation, in my post or yours?

And secondly, yes I believe both could gain more speed through better tuning tuan most drivers I know.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

And like I said, the car isn't oversteering, he is. I don't care how good a tuner you think you are, you're not "tuning away" wheelspin on a Sauber C9.

No, but I can make it manageable when it happens.

If you can't tune away wheelspin, you can't tune away "the over-steer".

You can't tune away wheelspin but you can tune what happens when wheelspin occurs. There's a HUGE difference between wheelspin meaning instantaneous, excessive, nearly uncorrectable oversteer and wheelspin meaning a moderate oversteer condition that can be caught by lifting throttle or countersteer.

Going to end up in a minimum front aero/max rear aero overall brick setup that still "oversteers!"

Right, because reducing front grip magically increases rear grip. Wait...

It's a differential and spring rate problem.

But I guess if you think that's the better approach...

 

[CSLACR]

Hey, maybe you're just a better tuner than me Rj

Maybe you can make an LMP drive as requested, just let me know when your tune is ready and Ill make a video if it can spin out or not.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

 

[Adrenaline]

Just a quick question before I head into work. Where did the term "forced" enter the conversation, in my post or yours?

Well, not forced clearly, but you understood the point.

And secondly, yes I believe both could gain more speed through better tuning tuan most drivers I know.

Interesting. What defines a better tune? Better tuned for the driver, or better tuned for the car, regardless of whether the driver can control said car? If I spin out in every turn, because the car is so damn loose, is my tune better than yours? It doesn't matter than I can't complete a clean lap?

Honestly, I think we might need to be more specific, are we talking Time Trials only, or an actual race setup? I suppose it changes things quite a bit, if the goal is simply one golden lap time that it takes someone an entire week finally connect every corner. Or are we talking about the ability to run 5 consecutive fast laps in order to reach the finish line before 15 other guys online?

Lastly... What does any of the above have to do with under/oversteer and how we use it on a daily basis?

 

[CyKosis1973]