The DS3 advantage

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chuyler1

chuyler1

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chuyler1
It's been bugging me for a while, but i've been noticing more and more lately that the best tuners/drivers i run with regularly are using a controller while I use a DFGT. I've always heard that a wheel and pedals gives you an edge, but I think proper use of the controller and tuning actually exploits the game's physics engine in favor of quick application of gas/brake and lock-to-lock steering.

Often times DS3 drivers suffer from consistency but with practice they run as fast, if not faster than me by using crazy tuning settings that never work with a wheel. Excessive rear biased brakes, outrageous camber, super stiff suspensions, high LSD settings, etc. I try the tunes and the car is out of control. Its almost like they get it to turn without any steering input at all.

Does the game favor DS3 racers by making it easier to race with the tapping method (tapping at various intervals to simulate partial throttle) or am I literally being out raced by someone's thumbs?
 
as you know i'm a ds3 user. i don't use crazy tuning settings - not even the ride height bug. i apply real world tuning concepts and they actually work. i do tend to tune the suspension for many of my cars for very slight oversteer because i tend to steer with the throttle but that's just style. my brake bias is almost always favouring the front. i don't tap, but use the analog r1 to control throttle.

the only advantage i see in a ds3 is the quick lock-to-lock but this really only applies when you're trying to save a spin.

i do notice the wheel guys are usually a lot smoother and based on that, i suspect i'd be even quicker with a wheel. accepting donations. :)
 
I'm a rubbish driver, as you know. One of the things I did lately to try and get better was simply practice drifting (There really needs to be a skid pad in the game). When a car gets into oversteer, it should be something a driver can pull out of.

I ran into more than one person that made the comment that drifting is easier with the DS3 simply because of the faster lock-to-lock time.

For what it is worth, I feel better with the DFGT because I can ease out of the brake and into the throttle and because I can hold the steering for large corners such as those on oval tracks or Cape Ring.
 
There definitely are really fast DS3ers out there but overall using a wheel is faster. Check out the WRS leaderboards, GT Academy results, and seasonal TT's.

But some DS3 USER will come in here and challenge us all to a race.:sly:
 
chuyler1
Often times DS3 drivers suffer from consistency but with practice they run as fast, if not faster than me by using crazy tuning settings that never work with a wheel. Excessive rear biased brakes, outrageous camber, super stiff suspensions, high LSD settings, etc. I try the tunes and the car is out of control. Its almost like they get it to turn without any steering input at all.
Click to expand...

I do all of that with a wheel.

I was quick with the pad in GT4 but GT5 loves good throttle control... Though one thing I will hand to the pad is that the quick lock-to-lock steering means you can have a much more oversteery car be relatively drivable whereas with a wheel you'll either loop it, get snapback, or it'll just feel like a ton of work and you still won't be particularly fast.
 
Osprey, I think you'd still have to retune all your rides before you improved your times on a wheel, especially if you are using buttons for steering and throttle/brake. If you use the joysticks or L1/R1 your tune might have a chance. I should try one of your tunes some time.

The biggest issue I see pertains to the LSD and brakes. Aggressive rear brake and high LSD settings allow a single tap of the the turn arrow to rotate the car through the entire turn. Switch to a wheel where you attempt to steer through the turn and the car will spin out every time.
 
chuyler1
I think you'd still have to retune all your rides before you improved your times on a wheel, especially if you are using buttons for steering and throttle/brake. If you use the joysticks or L1/R1 your tune might have a chance. I should try one of your tunes some time.

The biggest issue I see pertains to the LSD and brakes. Aggressive rear brake and high LSD settings allow a single tap of the the turn arrow to rotate the car through the entire turn. Switch to a wheel where you attempt to steer through the turn and the car will spin out every time.
Click to expand...

Very very few DS3ers set their cars up like that.

I've more recently laid off the aggressive rear brakes but I still run some very strong LSDs because I can get away with it... Whilst most pad users can't as it requires too much throttle control to avoid looping it. (See: LS6>LS7).

Then again I don't slap race tires on stuff.
 
Oh yeah, forgot to add that. I almost always race on SS tires...which might tend to be more sensitive to LSD/brake changes. The only time I run race tires is on race cars (GT500 for example).

...but even then I find lower settings work better. I just like to steer out of corners and the LSD always seems to prevent me from doing that.
 
chuyler1
Osprey, I think you'd still have to retune all your rides before you improved your times on a wheel, especially if you are using buttons for steering and throttle/brake. If you use the joysticks or L1/R1 your tune might have a chance. I should try one of your tunes some time.
Click to expand...

No doubt there'd be some adjustments but I dont think I'd be completely retuning/thinking setups. I could be wrong.. but I doubt it.

Aggressive rear brake and high LSD settings allow a single tap of the the turn arrow to rotate the car through the entire turn. Switch to a wheel where you attempt to steer through the turn and the car will spin out every time.
Click to expand...

it's more extreme than how i drive but i think that kind of tune just depends driving style. the idea with that tune is not to steer through the turn but rather flick it into the turn, straighten the wheel, and step on the gas - if you have to countersteer you did it wrong. it will auto-rotate and straighten out with proper throttle application.
 
How do DS3 users fare during longer races where Tire Wear is on? I'd imagine that the instant lock-to-lock steering action would wear tires much faster than a smooth wheel driver.
 
I've seen DS3 drivers go the distance. With less steering input they can preserve their front tires. If they get the rest of the setup correct to minimize rear tire wear they'll make out just fine on longer races, if not better.

I'll admit some of my cars are tuned for this snap steering. i was very successful in my GT500 car at Tokyo R246 by getting the car to essentially drift through turn 6 (that narrow kink). I don't think any real world driver would flick the wheel that hard into the barrier and just have faith that the car was going to drift at 150 mph and scrape by sideways without hitting it, but its the fastest way through the turn in the game.
 
The advantage of DS3 input is that there are heavy assists on the steering which make under/oversteering and countersteering management (and to some extent, tire wear management) much much easier than with a wheel.

Try looking back while using the external camera to check out the front wheels and see how the player input on steering when using a DS3 is nothing more than a vague suggestion for the game.

On the other hand, in an attempt of balancement, PD introduced some kind of buffer to throttle and brake input and an essentially unusable (for highly powered cars) throttle sensitivity curve which maxes out in an exponential way at about halfway its total input.
 
I only use DS3, no moneys for a wheel. I don't like wheels anyways. Just can't seem to get it.
 
I've used a controller for all 5 GT's. Never touched a wheel. I tune very low with a lot of camber and toe, with front brake bias. Gets the car up on its toes, which makes fast straights interesting, But I typically out turn anything close to my HP.
 
I don't see any advantage to a controller besides the built in steering aid, but that cannot make up for the precision of a wheel and pedals.

In regard to the special "controller tuning" mentioned above, I use both types of controls and don't really have any specialized tunes. The wheel actually lets me run a wider variety of set ups because it's easier to deal with power oversteer and trail braking. This goes for practically every situation from CH tires to RS and FWD econo cars to full on race cars.

It's completely possible that some controller users are just good. The wheel is a better control system, but it does not guarantee that one will be able to match or beat controller users.
 
chuyler1
It's been bugging me for a while, but i've been noticing more and more lately that the best tuners/drivers i run with regularly are using a controller while I use a DFGT. I've always heard that a wheel and pedals gives you an edge, but I think proper use of the controller and tuning actually exploits the game's physics engine in favor of quick application of gas/brake and lock-to-lock steering.

Often times DS3 drivers suffer from consistency but with practice they run as fast, if not faster than me by using crazy tuning settings that never work with a wheel. Excessive rear biased brakes, outrageous camber, super stiff suspensions, high LSD settings, etc. I try the tunes and the car is out of control. Its almost like they get it to turn without any steering input at all.

Does the game favor DS3 racers by making it easier to race with the tapping method (tapping at various intervals to simulate partial throttle) or am I literally being out raced by someone's thumbs?
Click to expand...

I think that even though PD would like everyone to use a wheel, they realize that most people who play GT5 still use the DS3. So it would make since that there is some compromise in the physics engine when it comes to the DS3. Just my 2cents.
 
Exorcet
I don't see any advantage to a controller besides the built in steering aid, but that cannot make up for the precision of a wheel and pedals.

In regard to the special "controller tuning" mentioned above, I use both types of controls and don't really have any specialized tunes. The wheel actually lets me run a wider variety of set ups because it's easier to deal with power oversteer and trail braking. This goes for practically every situation from CH tires to RS and FWD econo cars to full on race cars.

It's completely possible that some controller users are just good. The wheel is a better control system, but it does not guarantee that one will be able to match or beat controller users.
Click to expand...


Can you please explain those "Steering Aids".

btw I use the Directional Buttons to steer and feel non of the steering aids here.


raVer
 
Most obvious is steering angle. The front wheels will never steer to a point where they start losing grip, there is also something that greatly assists with counter steer as all you have to do to correct with the correct is crack the stick in the opposite direction when sliding for a little while. With a wheel on the other hand you can steer the wheels all the way at any speed and easily spin yourself trying to correct.
 
I use the DS3. I'm very inconsistent (but medium-fast), I am a bit consistent in F1 lobbies when I remember my lines and gearing. I use R2 L2 for gearing and X-and [] for brake/throttle. I usually feather the throttle and try to short-shift for a clean exit. Other DS3 users generally are good but about 60% of them are dirty/terrible racers. DS3 users have an advantage in turn ins but never in the middle of a corner have I seen a pro-DS3 beat a pro-wheel user. It's because wheel users get better throttle/brake and can control it more. DS3 users usually have to deal with moving the thumb to brake/throttle. We have an advantage at quicker throttle/brakes, though, but that's not usually a good thing. It can lead to oversteer. We are = in terms of performance.
 
chuyler1
It's been bugging me for a while, but i've been noticing more and more lately that the best tuners/drivers i run with regularly are using a controller while I use a DFGT. I've always heard that a wheel and pedals gives you an edge, but I think proper use of the controller and tuning actually exploits the game's physics engine in favor of quick application of gas/brake and lock-to-lock steering.

Often times DS3 drivers suffer from consistency but with practice they run as fast, if not faster than me by using crazy tuning settings that never work with a wheel. Excessive rear biased brakes, outrageous camber, super stiff suspensions, high LSD settings, etc. I try the tunes and the car is out of control. Its almost like they get it to turn without any steering input at all.

Does the game favor DS3 racers by making it easier to race with the tapping method (tapping at various intervals to simulate partial throttle) or am I literally being out raced by someone's thumbs?
Click to expand...

Dude, I thought I was the only one that felt this way...lol. First time I ever watched a replay a few months back from someone elses car, it was a GT500 race in which I finished second and thought I drove a perfect race. He was obviously using a DS3 and was jerking all over the place and although he ran a very good line, he did things with the car I could not do (instant direction changes for example )and from that point on I suspected that the game gave some slight advantages in grip and turning ability to DS3 users above wheel users. I assume it was to compensate for the difference in precision between the two options.

I've since improved my tuning, driving and did a bungee mod on my DFGT and I'm faster than I was then, but still think that a very good DS3 driver still has a slight advantage over a very good DFGT driver, but only slight.

One thing I also noticed, and I didn't read this whole thread so someone may have mentioned it, is DS3 cars often sound different. I watch my Cappuccino Cup replays fairly often and the DS3 cars just sound different, especially under decel and downshifting. No matter what I do with my DFGT I can't reproduce that sound and GT5 being what it is, I suspect that a different sound means something different is happening with the physics as well.
 
-raVer-
Can you please explain those "Steering Aids".

btw I use the Directional Buttons to steer and feel non of the steering aids here.


raVer
Click to expand...

If you are using the D pad, that in itself is proof of the existance of some kind of steering aid. You are essentially going to full left or right steering lock on every single corner, regardless of it's radius, which in real life is impossible. If I did that with my DFGT, I'd either spin out on entry or push through the corner, depending on the car, tires and corner. This "aid" is allowing you to be far less precise, but just as fast as a DFGT user, or any other wheel user.
 
I use DS3 and can push front tyres till they have no grip, I can also easily spin in corners!?

Excuses for being beaten with a pad probably!

Quick lock to lock? I race in the ICGT500 Championship, only DS3 user and get slaughtered at Monza because I have to slow to a crawl to do the chicanes as DS3 is slow at lock to lock, whilst wheel users get through much quicker!

BTW I am faster with a wheel.
 
phil_75
Quick lock to lock? I race in the ICGT500 Championship, only DS3 user and get slaughtered at Monza because I have to slow to a crawl to do the chicanes as DS3 is slow at lock to lock, whilst wheel users get through much quicker!
Click to expand...

I'm rubbish, so maybe I'm wrong, but... lock-to-lock at the Monza chicanes? I don't, and I am particularly anal about people cutting them. I guess the first one is tight enough to require it.

One thing that a wheel and pedals will help with at Monza will be throttle control coming out of the chicanes. There are also some large corners where you have to hold the steering at an angle.
 
Johnnypenso
If you are using the D pad, that in itself is proof of the existance of some kind of steering aid. You are essentially going to full left or right steering lock on every single corner, regardless of it's radius, which in real life is impossible. If I did that with my DFGT, I'd either spin out on entry or push through the corner, depending on the car, tires and corner. This "aid" is allowing you to be far less precise, but just as fast as a DFGT user, or any other wheel user.
Click to expand...


The only known "existance of some kind of steering help" is Active Steering.
The rest is rather speculation.
I´d like see some proof of this other (Pad) "steering help"

Try it out with D-Pad and X/Square for gas/break and tell me your findings. ;)



raVer
 

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