The European Auto Culture

[JohnBM01]

I basically know the American culture. The American culture is more about horsepower and speed. If it isn't American with American engineering, it won't last. The Japanese auto culture has a car for almost everyone. Everything from the powerful ones at 276 restricted horsepower (or 280 PS), to the Kei cars with 63 hp max (or ??? PS). But since I've been around European people on GTP, I'm actually curious about how the European auto culture is. I mean, I know there are Alfa Romeo, Opel/Vauxhall, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and all them. Is the European auto culture any different from America or Japan? Or maybe even different from Australia? Tell me (and others) about the European automotive culture. Just want to know what it's like in Europe compared to here in America... in terms of automobiles at least. If I had a license and I lived in Europe, I'd love to have a super-mini.

 

[Freddie]

I can tell you this - if you were European you'd want a car to do well over 20mpg and you wouldn't mind newer diesel-engined cars, considering they rev just like petrol-engines (RL at 4500, though) and have nuclearous torque. Handling would be very important, especially high-speed cornering, altough the suspension should not be to stiff. You would laugh at any pro-90's cars with stiff-axles and ladder-frames, unless they are pure utilarian. American cars are, in general, considered a joke (no offense meant).

Other than that it's a bit hard to define the European car-culture. People definetly want sporty cars, even the basic Ford Ka with a modest 60hp has some sporting degree. The 155mph/250km/h moral in Germany is rumoured to soon be history, just like the no-speed-limit-policy on the german Autobahn. Super-minis (like the Smart Fortwo) are pure urban cars, some are so short that they are legal to park transverselly, with either the front or the rear facing the sidewalk. There's usually a reason why people drive such cars, but normally people go for such cars such as the VW Passat, Renault Laguna, Skoda Superb, Ford Mondeo, Nissan Primera, Mazda 6 and Toyota Avensis, or the Ford Focus, VW Golf, Skoda Octavia, Toyota Corolla, Mazda 3 - you know, the cars that give plenty of room, comfort and economy for a reasonable price. If I were going to set up a list of priorities, it'd look like this, left is highest:
Economy, looks, sportiness/handling, practicality, value.

That's if I were going to buy a car to drive to school with, but generally economy always comes first, especially fuel economy.

 

[Famine]

Everything from the powerful ones at 276 restricted horsepower (or 280 PS)

Misconception. It's a "Gentleman's Agreement", with no basis in law. It's also just paper figures - the real figures are much, much higher. The Evo VIII leaves the factory with over 300hp. The Impreza Spec-C has 320hp. The R34 Skyline GT-Rs have 330hp.

 

[Victor Vance]

From an American perspective, European cars, or maybe just British cars, in particular, have always been about making up for low horsepower with light weight. The Lotus 7 is a shining example of that formula.

Famine: And the U.S. Evolution VIII gets 276HP, just like on the paper, right?

****ing stupid U.S. emmissions and crash test regulations

 

[Famine]

I have no idea about the US Evo VIII. If it does have "lower" power, it won't have been re-engineered or re-tuned for that level. It'll have been restricted - find that restrictor and remove it and you'll be hitting at even weight.

Fun fact. The average car, when driven for 2 hours every day, produces less carbon dioxide emissions than a single human breathing for a day. A coal-fired power station, running for a whole day, produces 67,314,000 times as much.

 

[liquidyellow]

As Freddie mentioned the main difference in Europe is diesel, simply because its cheaper in most parts (not the UK tho ) and obviously the cars drink less of it, indeed we are now seeing diesel convertibles, hot hatches etc... aparently the BMW 3.0 litre 3 series is supposed to be the best in its range but as I said here in the UK we are still mostly petrol heads .

American cars are starting to look cool again after all those years tho went for a ride in a Vauxhall Monaro (Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO/whatever) the other day!!! Whoa what a beast could the days of the muscle car be back? I hope so.

By the way why the hell does the Chevy Corvette have leaf spring rear suspension???

 

[ShobThaBob]

As Freddie mentioned the main difference in Europe is diesel, simply because its cheaper in most parts (not the UK tho ) and obviously the cars drink less of it, indeed we are now seeing diesel convertibles, hot hatches etc... aparently the BMW 3.0 litre 3 series is supposed to be the best in its range but as I said here in the UK we are still mostly petrol heads .

American cars are starting to look cool again after all those years tho went for a ride in a Vauxhall Monaro (Holden Monaro/Pontiac GTO/whatever) the other day!!! Whoa what a beast could the days of the muscle car be back? I hope so.

By the way why the hell does the Chevy Corvette have leaf spring rear suspension???

The question is - why does it have leaf spring suspension and handle better than a porsche gt3.

 

[///M-Spec]

By the way why the hell does the Chevy Corvette have leaf spring rear suspension???

I suspect it is a weight-saving and packaging decision.

The Corvette transverse leaf springs are located by a set of A-arms (think double wishbone). The leaf itself is a composite material that is very light and durable. A set of steel coil springs would have to be mounted vertically and probably cause the height of the car to rise in order to accomdate them. With a transverse leaf spring, it can be mounted very low in the suspension, helping bring CG and weight down. In addition, it gives shock placement more freedom. If you look at a cut-away of a C5 or C6 suspension, you'll notice it looks very compact and low. That is a good thing.

People instantly think ancient when the term 'leaf spring' comes up; but in this case, old technology can be very useful when applied with modern thinking.


M

 

[Cap'n Jack]

By the looks of the European cars, Id say they want them to be powerful, luxurious and sexy.

 

[1X83Z]

I have no idea about the US Evo VIII. If it does have "lower" power, it won't have been re-engineered or re-tuned for that level. It'll have been restricted - find that restrictor and remove it and you'll be hitting at even weight.

It's got 271 here. And thanks to the new Evolution RS model, which has practically nothing on it, it now starts at $26800.

 

[///M-Spec]

The question is - why does it have leaf spring suspension and handle better than a porsche gt3.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "handling". Handling is both objective and subjective.

Objectively, a C5 Z06 can edge out a 911 GT3 on the skidpad because it is wider, lower and has bigger tires. But the GT3 has better transitional abilities, hense it has better slalom numbers. This is probably because the GT3 has much better body control (firmer dampening). A C5 Z06 is actually pretty soft in roll resistance.

Subjectively, a 996 based Porsche has much better handling than a C5-based Corvette. 996 steering has tons more feedback and information than a C5 rack (yes, I driven both a C5 and 996). You feel a ton better going fast in a 911 than a Corvette, even though the Vette is just as fast... if not faster.


M

 

[JohnBM01]

Those European super-minis and such should make for some sweet driving. Perhaps I'd ride down Modena or London in a Fiat 500R from the 70s. But for people like me, the Mini Cooper is my hot ride. European minis have a lot of spunk in them. I think with all the different machines there, they would be very unique to own, race, or drive. My favorite city in Europe is Paris, France. And who knows? I may see some exotic muscle like a nice Ferrari, a sweet Lamborghini, or perhaps the McLaren F1. So what about you all who own pure performance machines like the ones mentioned? I'd want to know what it would be like to ride in a Lotus Super Seven or perhaps a b*tchin' Caterham. Should be mad sick, yo.

By the way, good points by all posters. Freddie's seems pretty cool.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

mmmm I can only think of European auto culture as making cars that have "class" , but too bad not everyone can afford them!

 

[JohnBM01]

Lady McLaren, weren't you the one saying that you went to Paris (my favorite European city), and seen "McCutey" there? I would imagine that as much as you'd be lucky to see a Dodge Viper in America, you'd have to be luckier to see some Euro supercars on the road.

Of course here in the States, I seen a Saleen S7 up close, but haven't seen one on the road in person. That S7 is my favorite Saleen. Love to see these bad boys go racing and challenge Corvette (if Dodge doesn't go back into sportscar racing, that is). Tell me more about the Euro automotive culture, GTPlanet.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Uhm...there are less than 100 road going mclarens in the WORLD. That taken into account, how many people do you really think drive them? That taken into account, how many do you think are in Paris. That taken into account, what do you think the chances of you actually being anywhere near the person driving it at whatever time he may be doing? I'll put my money on winning the lottery thankyouverymuch. There are more Lotus Esprits in houston than there are McLarens in texas (I would hope), and I have never seen ANY of them Esprits on the road (seen all of them in the shop though). I would assume European auto culture is the same as it is here - mod what ya got even if its ugly. Focus is more on low HP cars that handle well because that's what's cheaper to insure.

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, minis (not just the Mini Cooper) are quite abundant for getting around rather narrow streets there. To me, I just like them because they are every bit as fun as a full-sized car. And as I hear, the Focus and Ka (both from Ford) are two nice machines. As I was saying, the supercar thing is more of a rarity like here in America. Not to mention that with cars sold in America, there are some machines America doesn't get. For example, the Ford Mondeo would be sweet in the States. If the Contour hasn't been replaced yet, the Mondeo would be nice. Mercedes-Benz A-Class Avantgarde is nice for here-and-there driving.

 

[Famine]

Well, minis (not just the Mini Cooper) are quite abundant for getting around rather narrow streets there. To me, I just like them because they are every bit as fun as a full-sized car.

Have you ever actually been to any part of Europe, ever?

Europe is not made up of Baroque cities, Gothic cathedrals and narrow alleyways that it's only possible to get an original Mini down. We actually HAVE roads here too - astonishing, I know. In fact, we even have regulations governing the minimum width of roads, in all European (well, EU at least) countries. You can fit one dumptruck going each way on almost every two lane road in Europe - and certainly any two lane road with central markings.

And the "new" MINI is a full-sized car.

You may "basically know the American culture", but you don't know a thing about "Europe".

 

[liquidyellow]

Superminis are cheaper to buy, own and run obviously so thats the main reason for there abundance, to me at least it seems like cars considered small in the USA are considered HUGE over here. Is this true?

 

[Dave A]

I would assume European auto culture is the same as it is here - mod what ya got even if its ugly. Focus is more on low HP cars that handle well because that's what's cheaper to insure.

Thats a part of the European car culture, but thats not THE European car culture. Over here we value more things about the car like it's mpg and turning ability , however I would say we have a much bigger market and interest in supercars and grand tourers. While many Americans may say there fave car is some big V8 powered chunk of muscle car, we go for cars like the Aston Martin DB9 or the Lotus Esprit or a Porsche 911. We also drive faster than in the US, we have fewer drive by shootings (thats two digs in one post, go me) and we have over priced fuel.

 

[Pistachio]

Superminis are cheaper to buy, own and run obviously so thats the main reason for there abundance, to me at least it seems like cars considered small in the USA are considered HUGE over here. Is this true?

I see you have never seen a F-250. I have come along a few on the road, they are uterly massive, quite hideous IMO. So is the F-150. I think over in the US they would be classified as "large" but here in Aus they are "bloody huge".


And someone up the thread called the Monaro/PontiacGTO American, which is a understandable mistake, but it is Australian.

 

[Dave A]

We get the Monaro over here with a Vauxhall badge on it.

 

[ShobThaBob]

Well, minis (not just the Mini Cooper) are quite abundant for getting around rather narrow streets there. To me, I just like them because they are every bit as fun as a full-sized car. And as I hear, the Focus and Ka (both from Ford) are two nice machines. As I was saying, the supercar thing is more of a rarity like here in America. Not to mention that with cars sold in America, there are some machines America doesn't get. For example, the Ford Mondeo would be sweet in the States. If the Contour hasn't been replaced yet, the Mondeo would be nice. Mercedes-Benz A-Class Avantgarde is nice for here-and-there driving.

We do get the mondeo in the states, it's just not called the mondeo.

 

[daan]

to me at least it seems like cars considered small in the USA are considered HUGE over here. Is this true?

I think you could say that was true. A "small" block V8 is 5 litres.

John, do you think every street in Europe looks like this?

 

[Dave A]

Me Grans does.

 

[ShobThaBob]

I think you could say that was true. A "small" block V8 is 5 litres.

John, do you think every street in Europe looks like this?

I dunno, many small cars that we buy here in the US people buy over in Europe for the same reasons, and are major hits for the same reasons - specifically the Ford Focus, Honda Civic, so on and so forth. I would assume that the reason really small cars (smart, the Ka...) have more of a need there are not because of the roads, but because of the insurance and gas prices. And on the whole supercar thing, I think you're making generalizations. Just because you don't know about a large amount of people owning types of cars doesnt mean that people don't buy them. Most people only drive them on the weekends if at all. Some people are absolutely terrified to drive them - case in point being a very rich doctor from the Woodlands (rich area of houston) who returned an Aston Martin Vanquish because it scared the living piss out of him. Did you know that there are over 4 Vanquishes roaming the streets of Houston?

 

[ExigeEvan]

In terms of displacement, the 'norm' is under 2 litres.
Most cars are expected to do over 30mpg.
Newer Diesels are growing in popularity, but larger diesels have turbos.
British roads aren't as narrow as you seem to think. We just don't have as many lanes on our highways/motorways.
Small cars are bought mainly for low insurance and mileage.
Adn finally.. Mini's are NOT small! They are pretty stocky.

 

[Famine]

Did you know that there are over 4 Vanquishes roaming the streets of Houston?

I'm sorry... how does that work? "Over 4"? Is there 0.26 of a Vanquish driving around somewhere?

ExigeExcel is right about fuel economy, to an extent, although I'd say 35mpg is the ballpark good/bad fuel economy borderline. And that's Imperial gallons, not US ones. Except we can't buy our petrol in gallons any more - it's got to be litres. So our fuel economies are given in km/l. Except our road signs and odometers are all in Imperial.

The EU sucks.

 

[ShobThaBob]

It's my way of saying that I know OF 4 because they were bought from the dealership that I had worked at. The over part is me assuming (ut o) that perhaps there is at least 1 person that has one that WASN'T bought at the dealership

 

[Takumi Fujiwara]

Uhm...there are less than 100 road going mclarens in the WORLD. That taken into account, how many people do you really think drive them? That taken into account, how many do you think are in Paris. That taken into account, what do you think the chances of you actually being anywhere near the person driving it at whatever time he may be doing? I'll put my money on winning the lottery thankyouverymuch. There are more Lotus Esprits in houston than there are McLarens in texas (I would hope), and I have never seen ANY of them Esprits on the road (seen all of them in the shop though). I would assume European auto culture is the same as it is here - mod what ya got even if its ugly. Focus is more on low HP cars that handle well because that's what's cheaper to insure.

Seeing a McLaren isn't too unbelieveable. Hell, I saw an Enzo on the road, and they're pretty damn rare.

John, were you implying that seeing a Viper on the road is a big deal? I see them almost every day. Hell, I saw a group of them parked the other day, must have been about 20 of them. I see Vipers quite a bit more often than I see, for example, Skylines. (Not counting the Skyline whose owner I know)

 

[Dave A]

I see a NISMO R34 GT-R every weekday, I also see an older gemeration NSX-R quite often and I always see Porsche 911 GT3's and Ferrari 360's. Vipers are rare here but theres a showroom in town that has one or two in stock most of the time, I've seen an F1 on the roads once and only once, they are rare, rare cars, rarer than an Enzo.