The finer points of tuning analysis...

[Adrenaline]

I'd like to start a discussion on some of the finer details of how to adjust a tune.
I'm currently just trying to get use to the game (Read: Forget everything I learned in GT5/6) and since it seems the GT3 class will be the most popular in the game, I've started with the RUF, so that I can get a solid tune to share with people. While doing this, I'm starring at brake temps, 3 tire temps, and multiple other values, that I'm not entirely sure what my goal is to reach.

Let's start with the fact that I don;t even see a way in practice mode, to access this information. I can only see it when I'm driving on the track. As for now, I'm snapping a cell phone pic and trying to use that as a baseline. So let's begin there:

I apologize before hand if the values aren't all readable within the forum.

The first question is what do we feel optimum tire and brake temperatures are?
It seems the answer will vary depending on the car, but where do we come up with these values?
I've done some google searching, and it seems for tires you're looking at 180-200F degrees for tires.
More google searching leads me to believe that optimum brake temps are 400-600C or 700-1100F.

This is where I'd like to begin a discussion on how to optimize grip per-corner of the car.
If your RR is about 20F hotter than your LR, would you lean towards Air Pressure, spring rates etc. I don't expect there to be a definitive right or wrong, which is why I'd like to create a 'discussion' of how individuals do it, and why. Then perhaps I can compile the accumulated information into something easy to read and navigate for readers.

Outside/Center/Inside temperatures are fairly straight forward, but players of all levels will likely be playing the game.
I'm going to use some copy/paste here:

Center hotter than edges:
Tire pressure too high. Reduce 1 psi for each 5' F delta.

Edges hotter than center
Tire pressure too low. Add 1 psi for each 5' F delta.

Inner edge hotter than outer
Too much negative camber.

Out edge hotter than inner
Not enough negative camber or too much toe-in.

Tire below ideal temperature range
Tire pressure too high, tire too wide, or springs/sway bars too stiff at that axle.

Tire above ideal temperature range
Tire pressure too low, tire too narrow, or springs/sway bars too soft at that axle.

Front tires hotter than rear
Car is under steering (pushing). Too much front spring/sway bar, not enough rear spring/sway bar, front pressure too low, rear pressure too high, front tires too narrow, rear tires too wide.

Rear tires hotter than front
Car is over steering (loose). Too much rear spring/sway bar, not enough front spring/sway bar, rear pressure too low, front pressure too high, rear tires too narrow, front tires too wide.


Then, we see 3 more 'shock' measurements.
Bump 0.2in
Travel 2.4in
Height 2.7in

On these, I haven't the slightest clue how to use that information.
I also don't have a clue what the number beneath the tire is.

Like I said guys, just trying to get the ball rolling, so we can all discuss, learn, test and tune, trial and error our ways into some faster cars. Don't be shy, share your methods, there is no one single way.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I've read several times in the past that the inner tempatures should be a bit higher than the outter tempatures especially on the front. If they inner edge is not a little warmer that indicates not enough camber.

As for the part about the front tires being hotter than the rear that really depends on the car and to a lesser degree the course. FWD cars will always heat up the front tires more than the rear. AWD cars are likely to as well. RWD is more likely to be balanced where the tracks has corners and hotter at the rear when straight.

The number beneath the tire is probably related to grip. The way I read it that number shows how much of the grip is being used in % at any given moment. when it reaches 100 or more then it is breaking loose. As a test try a burnout, you should see the rear tire numbers go either to 100 or perhaps way above 100. On Forza it is not uncommon to see over 1000 when tires are smoking

 

[ocat1979]

If it showed tyre temps while the AI is driving, it would be a hell of a lot easier to analyze the data. Forza 4 had it perfect, you could bring up telemetry during replays, so much easier!

 

[Adrenaline]

Through my tuning, as well as some reading, it seems that 180-200F for tires is too low. My fastest laps come when the tires are between 220-240F. I believe the color of the tires changes from light green to dark green at 225, and then the next color is 245. I'm going off memory though. The other forum has a post saying the 'dark green' was his target, but that on the 2nd HUD option 'dark green' shows as 'red' and perhaps that's too hot?

I think as of right now my goal target is 220 on each tire, but I'm mainly focused on 5 laps sprints right now. It seems this will be an ever-long battle with optimum temperatures for different tracks and race lengths. This is NOT going to be like Gran Turismo where you hop in your favorite car and use the same tune for a cycle of 10 tracks with your buddies. I know that's suppose to be 'better' but this is where 'Sim' start to lose some of the 'fun' to games like GT.

Anywho, someone want to chime in with some temperatures, goals, targets, how it effects grip levels etc?

 

[Taz69]

I do race cars and bikes in real life. I am racing AMA this weekend at VIR. I live in Greensboro NC 45 min from the track. I know my tire warmers are set at 190 or 215F when I come off the track 225 to 235 is just about perfect tire temp so the Dunlop guys at the Dunlop trailer tell me. My rain tire warmers run 155F and off the track are around 180F anything higher than that they start to melt or come apart. I am a privater so I do use soft compound only. Getting the game this weekend and I am also going to start out in GT3 cars and just tune. Adrenaline what track are you using for testing so I can keep the track and class of car the same for comparison.. And tire pressure goes up about .3 bar when hot thats about 4 to 5 psi.. So start at like 1.7 bar and should be around 2 bar hot.. So for the game you have to know what the pressure is hot just work with cold tire pressure and as long as you get the temps in a range that works you will know the hot pressure..

 

[Adrenaline]

I know my tire warmers are set at 190 or 215F when I come off the track 225 to 235 is just about perfect tire temp so the Dunlop guys at the Dunlop trailer tell me.
Getting the game this weekend and I am also going to start out in GT3 cars and just tune. Adrenaline what track are you using for testing so I can keep the track and class of car the same for comparison..

I've been using Laguna Seca, simply because it's one of the few tracks I know, that's short enough for repeatability. Unfortunately if the track wasn't in GT5 or 6, then I don't know it. (I suck, I know) So, until I get a good solid feel for the game/cars, I'm sticking to what I know. I only got up to 29th on the Laguna GT3 leaderboard with a 1:21.6xx, and what I noticed, is in the Time Trial they start you off at 210F at all 4 tires, and 1100F on all 4 brakes. I can't be sure, but I assume that's probably a good benchmark to strive for, at least for the time being.

 

[Willfred_1]

for tyres the optimum temp varies as each is a different compound for most i try to get them over a long stin in the 90 to 100 degrees c window. this is because some tyres overheat at 110 or more. For qualifying by all means get the pressures higher. but by having a safety margin it means i can be more aggressive or harder on the tyres for a few turns before they overheat.
I will ask what's your brake temperatures like as the game models heat dissipating from the brake into the tyres core, it may help if your brakes were hotter.
http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

I would love some insight on how to read telemetry data.

What are bump-travel-height and the indicator (white triangle)? How should I interpret and respond to the data?

What is the number below each wheel?

Does telemetry show if I have brake/wheel lockup?

(I understand tire temps and brake temp.)

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

The numbers below the wheel I think show grip being used in %

If you were to lock up one or more wheels then those would spike that number as the grip is gone. The colored circle is also a clue as to how the weight is being transferred or at least seems to be the case.

The bump, travel gauge refers to your suspension. The indicator shows where it is riding on the scale at the moment. When you hit a bump the suspension will compress and the indicator will move up and when you go over a hump the indicator will move the other way as the suspension extends. This is reflecting a combination of your springs and dampers working together.

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

Thanks, @HBR-Roadhog. Are you sure the number below tire is Grip Percentage? I've seen it exceed 100. I've seen the number hit 200 in the gravel. If it is Grip %, I assume this is visualized in left to right, linear scale where 100 is max grip in the middle of scale. Anything to the right (>100) of the middle is beyond max grip. Ie. 200 is far right of scale.

@Adrenaline or anyone else - is it possible/necessary to keep all 4 tires within temp range? Track layout and car setup may see 1 tire be significantly cooler/hotter than other 3. Example: McLaren F1 at Zolder for my testing. FL, RL and RR are within 7-10F of each other. FR is 15-20F cooler. Car handles as I want during short stint. However, over the course of a long race, will there be uneven tire wear that causes loss of grip under braking and snap oversteer/understeer?

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Thanks, @HBR-Roadhog. Are you sure the number below tire is Grip Percentage? I've seen it exceed 100. I've seen the number hit 200 in the gravel. If it is Grip %, I assume this is visualized in left to right, linear scale where 100 is max grip in the middle of scale. Anything to the right (>100) of the middle is beyond max grip. Ie. 200 is far right of scale.

I'm pretty confident that it is but not quite 100% yet as I have not paid that much attention. Forza uses it this way and yes you can see numbers way above 100. I have saw numbers as high as 2000 or more in Forza when the car is spinning the tires a lot or the car is spinning out of control.

Basically when it reaches 100% there is no more grip to be had anything over 100 is spinning/sliding and/or cooking the tires. A serious burnout in a high powered car could/would throw it way past 100 as you are basically melting the tires at that point. I have no idea what the top of the scale is in PCars though

Edit: Duh. I guess that is what I get for assuming. The number does not mean the same thing as I thought. Not sure now what it means but after doing some dounuts in a GT40 with the telemetry up I can be sure that it is not grip % like it is in Forza. It never went above 100 even when smoking the tires big time

So now I am wondering what it means as well.
Sorry for the confusion/bad info above. I guess I am just to used to Forza

 

[Adrenaline]

@Adrenaline or anyone else - is it possible/necessary to keep all 4 tires within temp range? Track layout and car setup may see 1 tire be significantly cooler/hotter than other 3. Example: McLaren F1 at Zolder for my testing. FL, RL and RR are within 7-10F of each other. FR is 15-20F cooler. Car handles as I want during short stint. However, over the course of a long race, will there be uneven tire wear that causes loss of grip under braking and snap oversteer/understeer?

I ran into this at Laguna Seca, as the track is dominated by left turns, the left front tire never got to the temps of my other 3. I kept lowering the pressure in the tire, until it got as hot as I wanted.
I don't know if this is right, hell I don't even know if it's beneficial, but it's the quick fix I've been using until I learn otherwise. I considered altering the spring rate to try and put more pressure, but I was worried the car would react differently on left and right corners which might screw me up. I wish people with more tuning knowledge would chime in, I'm really just going off of trial and error.

 

[OooAhh Cantona]

I ran into this at Laguna Seca, as the track is dominated by left turns, the left front tire never got to the temps of my other 3. I kept lowering the pressure in the tire, until it got as hot as I wanted.
I don't know if this is right, hell I don't even know if it's beneficial, but it's the quick fix I've been using until I learn otherwise. I considered altering the spring rate to try and put more pressure, but I was worried the car would react differently on left and right corners which might screw me up. I wish people with more tuning knowledge would chime in, I'm really just going off of trial and error.

How much did you decrease FL tire pressure? I'm hesitant to decrease too much and unbalance the car. (Same reasoning as your hesitancy to alter spring rate.) Did you notice any change in handling?

I may have found possible solution. Camber (and pressure). My situation is reverse of yours - lots of right corners - my FR tire was cooler than rest. I decreased the camber angle on FL... less contact patch during cornering. And decreased FR pressure... more contact patch. Now FR tire is 7-12F cooler than rest. Before it was 15-20F cooler. I'm assuming it is better to make minor adjustments to multiple settings than major adjustment to one setting (creating unpredictability). But I'm not pro racer or engineer.

EDIT - Increase to RL tire pressure also helped me. I used my hand (flat palm) to visualize the car during cornering. How can I push more force onto front right? Get the rear left of the car higher. Not sure if this is professional tuning but it worked.

 

[Adrenaline]

How much did you decrease FL tire pressure? I'm hesitant to decrease too much and unbalance the car. (Same reasoning as your hesitancy to alter spring rate.) Did you notice any change in handling?

I may have found possible solution. Camber (and pressure). My situation is reverse of yours - lots of right corners - my FR tire was cooler than rest. I decreased the camber angle on FL... less contact patch during cornering. And decreased FR pressure... more contact patch. Now FR tire is 7-12F cooler than rest. Before it was 15-20F cooler. I'm assuming it is better to make minor adjustments to multiple settings than major adjustment to one setting (creating unpredictability). But I'm not pro racer or engineer.

My logic for tire pressure (whether flawed or not I don't know) is that the lower tire pressure, creates more heat, which creates more tire pressure... So that tire isn't actually running at 5-10psi lower than the opposite tire while 'on track' it just starts that way in the pits.

I guess we're both afraid of inconsistencies from the cars handling, by altering a single corner for non-ovals... but in reality, if 1 tire is 20F cooler than the other... aren't we already experiencing that inconsistency from grip? What's the difference between inconsistencies from tire grip, to inconsistencies from suspension grip? In the end, grip is grip right? I'm probably wrong, which is why we're sharing though!

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

Another factor you have with tire pressure is the rolling resistance. Lower pressure creates more rolling resistance and thus requires more power to move the car.

 

[Omnis]

My favorite part about pCars is that once it's raining, all your tuning knowledge goes out the window. I can tune a car to be an absolute monster in the rain, but it's just god-awful once the sun comes out.

Getting P1 by over a second in drenched qualifying is cool. Coming in last place for the sun-dried race is not.

I also find brake ducts to be almost always over-opened. Has anyone actually overheated their brakes yet? I can't manage to do it.

I've also played with damper settings. Not sure what I did, but I was able to make the car swerve out on lift and turn-in, and then the butt would come right back in on throttle.

 

[IceMan PJN]

If it showed tyre temps while the AI is driving, it would be a hell of a lot easier to analyze the data. Forza 4 had it perfect, you could bring up telemetry during replays, so much easier!

It's ridiculous that we lost this for FM5. I hope it returns in FM6.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I've also played with damper settings. Not sure what I did, but I was able to make the car swerve out on lift and turn-in, and then the butt would come right back in on throttle.

What type of car? This is normal behavior for the Clio and Focus

 

[Omnis]

SLS gt3

 

[ozwheels]

The number under the tires on telemetry is the grip indicator. It will get around 100 when cornering at the limit.

Brakes on GT3 cars start to fade for me when they get to 1500+ and the heat indicator turns dark green.

Increasing rear slow bump and decreasing front slow rebound will increase oversteer on corner entry and decrease oversteer on corner exit.

 

[Adrenaline]

I also find brake ducts to be almost always over-opened. Has anyone actually overheated their brakes yet? I can't manage to do it.

I think you're right. I've yet to touch any of the openings, because as mentioned in the OP, I have no clue what optimal temperatures are. But, if Time Trials start us out at 1100F for brakes, then I assume that number is fine. @ozwheels is saying 1500 is starting to overheat, so perhaps even 1100 is too low. Regardless, I'll be trying this out. Anyone have any noticeable gains in lap times by closing them? I'm sure someone will eventually get eager and do some stopping distance tests at different temps, etc, but until then... I wish there was a way to get more gauges in the HUD. Even in cockpit view it's hard to monitor the temps because of how small the screen is. And if you use any view but interior, you're just flat out of luck.

 

[Omnis]

If you check the diagnostic and sensor HUD which gives you temperatures and all a bunch of other things (But no mini map ), the brakes turn green when they're up to proper temp. I can get them up to rotting-pear-green but never into any kind of yellow or red. Leaving them with the brake ducts at default settings almost always results in brakes that are too cool to operate optimally.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Some confirmation that tuning should be equivalent on all platforms...welcome news:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...hysics-on-all-platforms.328922/#post-10706419

 

[scubieroo]

Just did a quick test on xb1 with a few of the gt class cars. in time trail all the cars I tested started with tires at 210 but the ford mkiv started with brakes around 820,the gt3 cars and ginetta jr brakes started around 920, and the zonda r brakes started at 1100.

Will test a bit in other classes but it appears to be a nice surprise that different cars will require different brake temp instead of a generic temp for all cars.. hopefully different compounds of tires will Have the same effects

 

[scubieroo]

It seems that generally, wet tires, soft, and hard slicks all have near the same optimal temp, which can change per car ,with a few outliers.but the rate in which they heat up changes depending on how soft the tire is. It also seems as though whatever temp it starts in time trials is within 10-20* of beginning to overheat Which I assume would be very near optimal..I'm not a tire engineer but that seems logical

 

[scubieroo]

The brakes seem to stay in the green at much higher temps than time trials start them but I haven't yet found a good way to determine what the optimal brake temp is given such a large range of temp in the green

 

[TT92]

[QUOTE="Omnis, post: 10701785, member: 12062"

Has anyone actually overheated their brakes yet? I can't manage to do it.

[/QUOTE]

PS4 has this as a Trophy, overheat your brakes to 1,000degC. Pagani Huyara, Nordschleife main straight 2nd gear and just rode the brakes at full throttle. It got to over 1100degC and then the motor detonated as well. Got the trophy though :-)

 

[Mike_grpA]

[QUOTE="Omnis, post: 10701785, member: 12062"

Has anyone actually overheated their brakes yet? I can't manage to do it.

PS4 has this as a Trophy, overheat your brakes to 1,000degC. Pagani Huyara, Nordschleife main straight 2nd gear and just rode the brakes at full throttle. It got to over 1100degC and then the motor detonated as well. Got the trophy though :-)[/QUOTE]

I was practicing at Imola in a Formula A when I randomly decided to go for that trophy. Rode the brakes on the throttle for a bit and it built up heat like crazy, but it started raining lol. I had it at around 800deg when the rain was pouring down, and it was harder to build it from there on the tiny straights at Imola in such cold, rainy conditions, but I got there! lol.

Edit* I was getting serious fade at the higher temps, which didn't help me build temp, as I kept going off into the gravel lol. At around 900deg I was needing more than double the braking distance to pull it up.

 

[Mr_D]

Hey there,
this link contains a LOT of usefull information about the tuning in pCARS.
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?22501-Project-Cars-Tuning-Guide-Spring-amp-castor-guide-(3C-amp-3D)-Now-live!

The 2nd post in that thread explains that optimum tyre temp is around 80-100C
Oil temp should not exceed 100C for longer races
Temperature difference between inside and outside of the tyre should not exceed 10C

Especially the Q&A part is very interesting. a bit of a read though

And here is a bit of information (not a lot) about the telemetry:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23037-Telemetry-detail

This is a general tuning guide with a lot of helpfull tips:
http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?23371-Car-setup-guide

 

[TexasTyme214]

For brakes, SMS modeled all the varying materials in terms of temperature, wear, and overall life. Carbon brakes, steel brakes, etc are going to be different. F1 brakes and GT3 brakes will be different.

Other things are here: http://en.pcars.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Physics