The Front Wheel Drive Thread

[Dave A]

I've had a couple of rwd cars before and the biggest smile any of my cars has given me is my 306 1.9 TDi being driven over the pennines. though I expect my Focus to beat that for fun at some point, the Focus is an amazingly composed and chuckable car. There's very little body roll and the chassis is quite stiffly setup so it corners extremely well.

 

[Dougboy]

According to a sales brochure for the 1989 Lotus Elan, the ride and handling engineers at Lotus found that "for a given vehicle weight, power and tire size, a front wheel drive car was always faster over a given section of road.

Hmmmmm, i found that quite interesting

 

[buickgnx88]

I wonder if it has something to do with the engine sitting over the drive wheels...course would that mean cars like the Ferrari 360 and Porsche 911 are just as good? Did they give any reasoning to their conclusion?

 

[YSSMAN]

Im not saying that the MS3 is the best FWD car out there by any means but it is a shame that people knock FWD vehicles just because it is different. You just have to KNOW how to drive them.

Exactly. My old Fox and that Fit Sport I drove had that funky lift-throttle steering that I love, snapping its line into shape to go where you want it. A lot of people would likely hate it, but I think its fun, so its no big deal to me. You can toss these cars into a corner, work a bit, and get 'em back in line. Its part of the fun of the car...

Now, I've driven my own fair share of crappy FWD cars, and I can understand where some of the hate comes from. But there are generally far too many shining examples to make it seem "right" that you tend to forget cars like the Cavalier... Or the Escort (US version). Or the Corolla (current non-XRS form).

 

[Philly]

I think the bad rep on FWD cars comes from the larger cars having it. Larger vehicles like the G6, Fusion, Passat and even Camry would probably be much more fun if they were rear drivers. There is no need for a RWD Golf, 206 or Clio though. (V6 racey models aside)

Hmmmmm, i found that quite interesting

You also have to consider the weights and power of the cars being compared. Driving a 500 hp FWD car weighing 4200 lbs just doesn't sound as fun as a comparable Rear driver would be. And a 3000 pound RWD car with 150 horsepower would probably end up rather dull.

 

[McLaren]

That's a bad example, the TL is a luxury car and has a ton of add ons with it hence why it is expensive. Most economy cars are FWD because it is cheaper do to fewer moving parts and less complexity.

That's beside the point. He said the only reason manufacturers build FWD cars is because they are cheap to build. My TL easily disproves that so-called reason because these cars are not cheap to build, and the MSRP tag reflects on that. Manufacturers who build $35,000 cars are not taking short cuts on the car, and I know for a fact that Acura isn't either when the TL is praised for being such a good car.

 

[kikie]

The only reason why auto manufactures build FWD cars is that FWD cars are cheapest to build.

Nope, they build FWD cars because they are safer to drive and much easier to control if something goes wrong.

Maybe they are cheaper to build, you could be right about that but that is not the main reason.

 

[vr6gti72]

I love my FWD.

 

[JCE]

Exactly. My old Fox and that Fit Sport I drove had that funky lift-throttle steering that I love, snapping its line into shape to go where you want it. A lot of people would likely hate it, but I think its fun, so its no big deal to me. You can toss these cars into a corner, work a bit, and get 'em back in line. Its part of the fun of the car...

Now, I've driven my own fair share of crappy FWD cars, and I can understand where some of the hate comes from. But there are generally far too many shining examples to make it seem "right" that you tend to forget cars like the Cavalier... Or the Escort (US version). Or the Corolla (current non-XRS form).

As a twice over Focus owner and SE-R Sentra (200SX technically) owner let me be the first to agree on the lift off oversteer thing being brlliant fun.

That's beside the point. He said the only reason manufacturers build FWD cars is because they are cheap to build. My TL easily disproves that so-called reason because these cars are not cheap to build, and the MSRP tag reflects on that. Manufacturers who build $35,000 cars are not taking short cuts on the car, and I know for a fact that Acura isn't either when the TL is praised for being such a good car.

But, as much as I love the TL--and I do--even you have to admit that it would be GODLY with AWD or RWD. I honestly think Honda dropped the ball on that one for not at least offering an SH-AWD model. But that wouldn't exclude me from every buying one.

 

[McLaren]

Well, you're in luck (and I'm pissed), then. The 2009 model will get 325 Horses and SH-AWD standard.

 

[JCE]

Well, you're in luck (and I'm pissed), then. The 2009 model will get 325 Horses and SH-AWD standard.

But, it won't look anywhere near as good. No thanks, I'll take the older FWD model. 👍

 

[Joey D]

That's beside the point. He said the only reason manufacturers build FWD cars is because they are cheap to build. My TL easily disproves that so-called reason because these cars are not cheap to build, and the MSRP tag reflects on that. Manufacturers who build $35,000 cars are not taking short cuts on the car, and I know for a fact that Acura isn't either when the TL is praised for being such a good car.

It would probably be more expensive if it was RWD or AWD though. And the only reason it does cost so much is because of them not taking short cuts. It's not expensive because of the wheels being powered.

 

[Wolfe]

There are fast FWD cars, there are fun FWD cars (some are very fun), and there are FWD cars that handle very well. There are a lot of FWD cars I like -- the Celica, MINI, and Golf/GTI are a few examples -- and they're genuinely good cars.

However, every single one of them would be faster, more fun, or handle better if they were identical in every way but were either RWD or AWD. I'd like them more that way, too. Here are some real-world and theoretical examples to consider:

VW GTI = Awesome.
VW R32 = Really awesome.

MS3 = Incredible.
260hp turbo Miata = Orgasmic.

Renault Clio = Great.
Renault Clio V6 = Badass.

7th-gen Celica = Truly amazing.
7th-gen Celica GT-4 = WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THIS??

Neon SRT-4 = Surprisingly good.
AWD Neon SRT-4 = American public: "Impreza? Evo? Never heard of 'em."


Now, I'm not here to say "lol, fwd sux." Like I said, I like a lot of FWD cars, and I can understand completely why you guys would like them. However, whenever talking about a good FWD car, I find myself, my friends, and many others saying, "yeah, it's great, for a FWD car."

What I want to know is whether that's the case for everyone here as well, or if there are people who consider FWD cars to be on a level playing field with -- or even better than -- RWD and AWD cars. Thoughts?

Most people who drive to and from work could care less if there car is pushing or pulling them along.

Yes, most of them probably don't, but don't count them out just because they aren't enthusiasts.

Here's a snippet from an article I found a long time ago, written by a guy that doesn't seem to be that much of an enthusiast:

It's pretty clear to me, after driving hundreds of different vehicles over several decades, that rear drive offers a big aesthetic advantage to ordinary drivers at ordinary speeds in ordinary conditions. Why? The lock-in effect I mentioned earlier. Suppose you go into a corner in a rear-drive car at a reasonable, safe, legal speed. Nothing's about to skid. But you can still feel the front end starting to plow wide a bit. What to do? Step on the gas! Don't stomp on it -- but add a bit of power, and a miraculous thing happens. The front end swings back in, the car tightens its line. Cornering traction seems to increase. And the car feels locked into a groove, balanced between the motive power from the rear and the turning power in the front.

You don't have to be a race driver to feel this. You can be a defensive driver and feel it. You can be driving a 1973 Ford Maverick with leaking shocks and you'll feel it. Accountants feel it on the way to the office and housewives feel it on the way to the Safeway. Even Ralph Nader probably feels it. It's a good part of what makes driving a car a sensual act.

Kinda helps explain the success of Chrysler's LX cars.

 

[McLaren]

It would probably be more expensive if it was RWD or AWD though. And the only reason it does cost so much is because of them not taking short cuts. It's not expensive because of the wheels being powered.

That's pretty much my point. And the drivetrain isn't going to make a huge difference. The '09 model is still expected to around $35,000-$38,000, which is equal or $3,000 more to mine.

 

[niky]

@Wolfe: Many owners of older STis say that the Protege feels nimbler and pointier on the autocross... the autocross, which used to be the realm of light rear-drive sportscars is now swarming with the next generation of fun little FWD cars.

True, it would be awesome if those cars were RWD, but RWD doesn't always make for happy:happy:joy:joy... the Clio V6, for example, was a blast to drive at 7/10ths on the road, but quite a few tests have noted that it was downright lairy on track, while the Renaultsport Clios were roundly hailed for being great fun.

A 260 hp Mazdaspeed3 versus a 260 hp Miata... hmm... I'd wait to see what a 260 hp Miata was like first... the Mazdaspeed3 isn't exactly the best FWD car there is, but it's good enough. A 260 hp Miata, with the stock weight, might just be on the wrong side of nuts.

I've just come back from driving the new Mazda6. I drove a whole bunch of BMWs in a set of slaloms a week previous. Now, this may shock you, but I can safely say that short of an outright full-speed thrash on track, I'd say the Mazda6 handles just as well as a BMW 3-series or a BMW 5-series with the same power-weight ratio. The steering is just as sharp, the body control is just as good, and the nose is just as pointy. If we didn't have a manufacturer rep with us, I would have tried trail-braking it to see if it would play. Obviously, you can't keep your foot in throughout a corner, but that's also true in many RWD cars anyway.

Still, I will admit that a properly balanced rear driver will ultimately be the better car, but there's a caveat there... in 90% of road situations, a well-made front driver will be just as good, and in about 10% of those road situations, it can be faster than a rear driver due to the extra stability (read: understeer on demand... ) afforded by those front driven wheels.

Rear-wheel drive cars are great, and in terms of driver excitement, nothing can beat a good RWD car, but thankfully, the words "Goood for a front-driver" don't carry the same weight they used to... for some front-drivers, you can simply say "It's good, period."

I know of a couple Evo, m3 and STI owners who all have said that on public roads the must fun they have ever had was in their warm/hot fwd hatches. They say that in their M3's Evo etc they will have to be in the near triple mph figures before they have fun, but with that comes great danger and the risk of loosing their license, and therefore in their opinions FWD cars is some of the most fun you can have on the road.

I think you and I have finally agreed on something, which is scary...