The Grammar & Spelling Thread

[Liquid]

What really annoys me about the historic debate is the newsreader's way of saying it; they will put the an instead of a, but then pronounce the h

There used to be much more confusion around the 18th century or so, when many of the working classes were illiterate. They knew of 'a' rule regarding an + H (That being for French words like hour, honour etc.) and wrongly assumed it meant for all words beginning with H, and not just the ones with vowel sounds. Like I wrote a few posts up, the confusion is compounded by the unstressed pronunciations by most British people. An 'istoric, an 'orrible, an 'angover and so on.

It's a form of hypercorrection that has carried on until today. An historic is wrong. The BBC uses all the time.
They're wrong.

 

[Crash]

One thing I always wonder about though, is how you would order double punctuation. Like in a quote would it be (".) or (.")? Iknow that question and exclaimation marks are placed based on whether or not they were part of the quote but I am not sure about periods and commas.

If I remember correctly, with US English, the punctuation is inside the quotations (."), while in British English, the punctuation is outside of the quotations (".).

 

[W3H5]

If I remember correctly, with US English, the punctuation is inside the quotations (."), while in British English, the punctuation is outside of the quotations (".).

There is no such thing as British English, only English. Anything else is a dialect or distortion of English. (What would British English be opposed to? British Swahili?)

On you point, yes. The place of a quotation varies from one dialect to another.

 

[dxm8975]

I once saw someone on the forums say "an union." While I know the rule is that if the noun starts with a vowel, you use "an" and if the word starts with a consonant you use "a." Is this an exception or does everyone always say it the wrong way without ever noticing?

I guess it's an exception too as the pronunciation of the head of the word start closer with "y" sound rather than a pure "u" sound... "An union" sounds a little strange to me in hearing it officially used in commentary... 💡

And I've long wondered why people don't say "a hour" instead of "an hour" which is a correct term... Following the grammatical rules you mentioned, "an hour" should be wrong without regard of way of pronunciation.

 

[Racedude]

I have this doubt: When should "Specially" or "Especially" be used? Or are they the same thing?

Sorry if I'm not being clear, but I'd appreciate some help.

 

[PureAwesomeness]

I guess it's an exception too as the pronunciation of the head of the word start closer with "y" sound rather than a pure "u" sound... "An union" sounds a little strange to me in hearing it officially used in commentary... 💡

And I've long wondered why people don't say "a hour" instead of "an hour" which is a correct term... Following the grammatical rules you mentioned, "an hour" should be wrong without regard of way of pronunciation.

This was already commented somewhere above. The first letter is not important. What is important is whether the word starts with a vowel sound or a consonant sound.

The first phonetic spelling for union is \j\ which is a consonant.

The phonetic spelling of hour is \ˈau(-&#601r\
which is a vowel.

 

[dxm8975]

I have this doubt: When should "Specially" or "Especially" be used? Or are they the same thing?

Sorry if I'm not being clear, but I'd appreciate some help.

Probably just the difference whether "E" is at the head of the word or not I think? The usage of those words is almost the same like I usually do... or you can ask shem about that.

 

[Villain]

Especially or Specially?

This is a favorite question of grammar checkers. Most of the time there is little or no difference between the words especially and specially.

Special is a common adjective. Specially is its adverb form. Special means "particular, distinguished in a distinct way, or designed for a particular purpose." Specially means "particularly, in a disintguishing manner, or for a particular purpose."

Especial is an uncommon adjective. Especially, its adverb form, is much more common. Especial means "exceptional, noteworthy, or particular." Especially means "exceptionally, in a noteworthy manner, or particularly."

In the sense of "particular" or "particularly," the words mean pretty much the same thing. Often they can be used synonymously. However, if you want to stress the exceptional or noteworthy quality, then especial or especially is a better choice. If you want to stress the distinctive purpose of something, then special or specially is the word you are looking for.


Example: This program has specially designed macros for word processors.
(A distinctive purpose)
Example: He did especially well in All-Star Game.
(A noteworthy performance)


H/T - A google search.

 

[Schwartz]

Can someone explain to me how to use the phrase "per se"? The dictionary definition is "in itself" but I don't really understand the usage of it. I've heard it used and it sounds good, but I'm still not exactly sure as to when it makes sense to use it and what exactly it means.

 

[W3H5]

I can't explain it but can give you some sort of example, per se.

 

[Villain]

"per se" is latin for "in and of inself." So think of a sentence where you'd use the phrase "in and of itself" and there you go.

 

[Racedude]

Thanks, Villain.

Also:
"Guns don't kill people, per se. People use guns to kill people." Like that? Just trying to give an example.

 

[Villain]

No I think it's more like, "guns aren't bad, per se, but some people use guns to do bad things."

 

[Schwartz]

"per se" is latin for "in and of inself." So think of a sentence where you'd use the phrase "in and of itself" and there you go.

So you could say:
The car is not very fast, per se.

And it would mean the same as:
The car is not very fast in and of itself.

Is this correct? Even if it is, I'm still not sure how "per se" changes the meaning of a sentence.

What is the difference of saying:

The car is not very fast.
and
The car is not very fast, per se.

No I think it's more like, "guns aren't bad, per se, but some people use guns to do bad things."

That makes more sense now. So I could say:

The car is not very fast, per se, but it beats many other cars in its uncompetitive class.

 

[Villain]

Bingo.

 

[AOS-]

I always thought of "per se" as another way of using "It's not to say that ____"....

 

[Beeblebrox237]

My favorite newspaper heading is (this is real by the way):

Iraqi Head Seeks Arms

I have to add my favorite:
Bush orders US Troops to Virgins

 

[Schwartz]

I have to add my favorite:
Bush orders US Troops to Virgins

Oh, forgot this one:

Ring of Debris Found Around Uranus

 

[AOS-]

Just wipe it off and get on with your day. People making such a big deal over the smallest things in life.

 

[Matty]

Hmm, I was always wondering about a certain grammatical rule when I was in primary school. "'I' before 'E' except after 'C'."

Now to me the raises a few questions about certain words, where the 'E' comes before the 'I' even though there may be no 'C' in the word. The fact I actually can't think of any at the moment is very frustrating but you mightn't notice that I'm trying to fit many long words into my query of grammatical correctness in the hope of finding a little something, any little or long word that has this little mistake I am currently on about. But it seems I can't find any word with this in it.

Anyone else notice this and if so, can you remember the word in which this occurred in? Thanks in advance for anyone who can help me with my grammatical demeanour.

Also my favourite headline has to be, "County pays $250,000 to advertise lack of funds".

By the way, I used (".) that time cause there was no full stop within the headline, which also leads me to the question. If your finishing a sentence with a quote and there's a full stop within the quotation at the very end of the statement and it's the end of you own sentence would you have to do this (.".)?

 

[W3H5]

The I before E except after C is no longer being taught in British schools because there are so many exceptions to it.

Wikipedia
ie after c: ancient, species, science, sufficient, society
ei not preceded by c: seize, weird, eider, either, height, foreign, leisure, counterfeit, forfeit, neither, their, queueing, Keith, reinsure

 

[Schwartz]

By the way, I used (".) that time cause there was no full stop within the headline, which also leads me to the question. If your finishing a sentence with a quote and there's a full stop within the quotation at the very end of the statement and it's the end of you own sentence would you have to do this (.".)?

If the sentence ends when the quote ends, you put just one period inside the quote.
For example:

My favourite headline is, "County pays $250,000 to advertise lack of funds."

 

[W3H5]

^Correct.

 

[Schwartz]

The I before E except after C is no longer being taught in British schools because there are so many exceptions to it.

Honestly I think the only reason they taught it in the first place is to teach what an "exception" is. I can't tell you how many times teachers have said that rule, then immediately talked about an exception to the rule to teach that exceptions exist.

 

[W3H5]

Yeah, it's about time somebody realised that when a rule has so many exception, like in this case, there is no point having a rule for it!

 

[Schwartz]

Yeah, it's about time somebody realised that when a rule has so many exception, like in this case, there is no point having a rule for it!

Its like asking for a cheeseburger without cheese. (That is if they have cheeseburgers in Britain)

 

[W3H5]

(That is if they have cheeseburgers in Britain)

1. What a ridiculous thing to say! Have you seen the size of the average Britain these days? Clearly a side effect of too many cheese burgers.

2. I very much doubt cheese burgers have any impact on grammatical principles!

 

[Schwartz]

1. What a ridiculous thing to say! Have you seen the size of the average Britain these days? Clearly a side effect of too many cheese burgers.

2. I very much doubt cheese burgers have any impact on grammatical principles!

Have you seen the size of the average American these days? That being said, I'm pretty sure cheeseburgers have found a way into every aspect of American life. Yes, even grammar.

 

[W3H5]

Can I haz cheeseburger?

You're right. Cheeseburgers have invaded our language.

 

[BobK]

Hmm, I was always wondering about a certain grammatical rule when I was in primary school. "'I' before 'E' except after 'C'."

Now to me the raises a few questions about certain words, where the 'E' comes before the 'I' even though there may be no 'C' in the word. The fact I actually can't think of any at the moment is very frustrating but you mightn't notice that I'm trying to fit many long words into my query of grammatical correctness in the hope of finding a little something, any little or long word that has this little mistake I am currently on about. But it seems I can't find any word with this in it.

The rule, as I learned it, is:
'I' before 'E', except after 'C'
Or when sounded like 'A', as in 'neighbor' and 'weigh'.

By the way, I used (".) that time cause there was no full stop within the headline, which also leads me to the question. If your finishing a sentence with a quote and there's a full stop within the quotation at the very end of the statement and it's the end of you own sentence would you have to do this (.".)?

If the quote ends with a period (full stop, whatever) then you shouldn't add a second one. The quoted period can also serve to mark the end of the sentence containing the quote. Unless there's more in the sentence after the quote, of course.