The great body stiffening debate!

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actually the Audi R8 race car pushes a hell of alot more after the rollcage
 
Foamy302
actually the Audi R8 race car pushes a hell of alot more after the rollcage

Interesting. Mine didn't. It seemed to understeer very slightly less. I got a slight improvement in lap time, but it wasn't as drastic as it was on the Pescarolos.

Do you have the PAL version or the NTSC version of the game?
 
i have NTSC but anyway maybe it's just me and my opinion cuz i think almost everycar pushes a little
 
I just added the Rollcage to my Nismo R32 S-Tune and it made it easily driftable with stock power and softer rubber at front compared to the rears.. before it was an understeering king!.. am yet to try on other R32 GTRs, though..

Hopefully this info will get this thread going again..

Which cars are better/worse with the rollcage installed??
 
I have a nearly maxed out Lancer EVO3 in game with a good 35,000+ miles on it, it has started to develop some seriously bouncing issues around the Nurburgring that it never had before (I've put about 1,500 miles on it). Following the install of the refresh and then the roll-cage it has become much more stable, but there is a noteable increase in understeer which I removed by stiffening the rear shocks a little and adding a touch more rear bar... Worked well for me :)
 
I never use the rollcage! Not since I discovered that you have to buy an entirely new car once the body refresh is worn out (the rollcage is always there). I bought a rollcage for a few cars in the beginning of the game, but I have had to buy new ones now (the R8 was tough for the wallet to loose). Understeer and bumpiness gets so bad that the cars get impossible to drive.
 
I only installed the rollcage once and I'll never do it again! My beuatiful BMW M5 in my first game got the "upgrade" as I thought I could make it even "racier".. Dead wrong. I think it was best described in an earlier post in this thread, "it sent the car into understeer city" :lol: Something like that..

Never touched to option again, but I wonder, as many report it doing great things to the LMP/Group C cars, if it could perhaps be a good idea to use when doing the 24h races? In those races the car is (for me anyway) totally un-driveable at the end and all over the road on the straights. Can anyone shed some light if the rollcage would solve even this problem in these ultra-long races?

Cheers!
 
It seems to me that this upgrade is more based on personal preference and how you want the car to handle than making it an all around better car. I remember it working very well on my Lotus Elise 111R, and as many said before, the Group C racers.

Panzerfaust-Im not sure if youd want this upgrade on the 'Ring but it should help some at Le Sarthe. Im not sure about using it at the 'Ring cus it usually adds a pretty good amount of stiffness and i think that may make it sketchy with all the bumps,rumble strips, and dips that are right before the corner and sometimes in the braking point..im gonna try it out and tell you what i think, but again what i find might seem good to me and bad to others.
 
i was tempted to add this to my used '96 impreza.. i feel i have problems with understeer already (im not that great at the game) and anything that could increase that is a big no no for me, what i need now is 50,000 for the refresh.
 
I read from somewhere that if your car yndersteers, it can be solved by softening the front suspension. Sounds bizarre, but it works. So, if we think that the rollcage stiffens the suspension, that's the reason to the understeering. I usually use 11 kg front springs on tuned road cars and this had to be dropped to ten or nine with the rollcage. Maybe it can be thought it just adds a couple of kilograms to the spring rate and stiffens the stabilizers?
 
TheCleanerLeon
i was tempted to add this to my used '96 impreza.. i feel i have problems with understeer already (im not that great at the game) and anything that could increase that is a big no no for me, what i need now is 50,000 for the refresh.
I installed it on my Nismo R32 S-Tune '00 in hopes of getting the car to be more drift friendly it worked great for me.. I'm hoping it has the same effect on all or at least most of the 4WD cars.. I'll be testing soon

I had a thought. Maybe it doesn't work so well on new cars (04-05). Generally, new performance cars have had alot of engineering work done, in regards to chassis stiffness, so adding more stiffness is not really needed.

OR the car just doesn't have enough power to allow the rollcage to absorb more of the body flexing..

OR maybe people just aren't re-tuning their cars. With the car being so much stiffer (has PD stated any numbers or percentages?), you'd practically have to start from scratch and tune the car all over again.. REMEMBER, adding a rollcage pretty much makes it a race car in terms of dynamic AND static motion..


Just my thoughts.. 💡
 
It may help 4wd's by evening out the load to all 4 tires. But with FR's, they will not drift half as well with it as they did w/o it. Chasis Refresh is nesesary to have any control however.
 
it really is surprising that this thread has gone so far without anyone stressing this (to be fair Kaizen said it - but i want to STRESS it). but if your car starts understeering, it is most likely because it was previously set up withOUT a roll cage. ie if a car is fairly neutral on say 12/10 springs pre roll cage, it will get understeery if you don't adjust the springs after it gets stiffer. the cage will spread the distribution more evenly around the car, and hence will want to behave less like a FR (or FF, RR whatever) and more neutral. if you have a setup that is compensating for this FR characteristic (which usually means trying to dial out the oversteer inherent in an FR) that will leave you with understeer. try 10/10 springs post cage and see if you don't like the car better than before you started.

in summary, a car with a cage generally becomes more neutral (less one ended), making it easier to tune and better to drive.
 
Team666
I never use the rollcage! Not since I discovered that you have to buy an entirely new car once the body refresh is worn out (the rollcage is always there). I bought a rollcage for a few cars in the beginning of the game, but I have had to buy new ones now (the R8 was tough for the wallet to loose). Understeer and bumpiness gets so bad that the cars get impossible to drive.

Why do you buy a new car when the body stiffness wears out? You can always to go their respective manufacturer's tune shop, go to "others" and select Chassis Refresh, it's the one next to the rollcage option. The price is a bit steep, but after the refresh, it's just as good as new again.
 
Ezz777
it really is surprising that this thread has gone so far without anyone stressing this (to be fair Kaizen said it - but i want to STRESS it). but if your car starts understeering, it is most likely because it was previously set up withOUT a roll cage. ie if a car is fairly neutral on say 12/10 springs pre roll cage, it will get understeery if you don't adjust the springs after it gets stiffer. the cage will spread the distribution more evenly around the car, and hence will want to behave less like a FR (or FF, RR whatever) and more neutral. if you have a setup that is compensating for this FR characteristic (which usually means trying to dial out the oversteer inherent in an FR) that will leave you with understeer. try 10/10 springs post cage and see if you don't like the car better than before you started.

in summary, a car with a cage generally becomes more neutral (less one ended), making it easier to tune and better to drive.

Exactly - well said bud. I've only had good results with the refresh and cage, but yes it does take some work on the setup to cancel out any negative effects like increased understeer.

I wonder how many people REALLY do tune their suspension settings, surely if a car starts to understeer heavily and it isnt a characteristic you want, then you can just tune it out - thats why we have fully adjustable suspension... Common sense if you ask me :)
 
Ezz777
it really is surprising that this thread has gone so far without anyone stressing this (to be fair Kaizen said it - but i want to STRESS it). but if your car starts understeering, it is most likely because it was previously set up withOUT a roll cage. ie if a car is fairly neutral on say 12/10 springs pre roll cage, it will get understeery if you don't adjust the springs after it gets stiffer. the cage will spread the distribution more evenly around the car, and hence will want to behave less like a FR (or FF, RR whatever) and more neutral. if you have a setup that is compensating for this FR characteristic (which usually means trying to dial out the oversteer inherent in an FR) that will leave you with understeer. try 10/10 springs post cage and see if you don't like the car better than before you started.

in summary, a car with a cage generally becomes more neutral (less one ended), making it easier to tune and better to drive.

Yeah, but it puts too much traction to the rear end and makes wheelspin alot harder to do. I tune the hell out of my cars, I had the car set up perfect for both situations and it just drifts better and easier w/o chasis stiffening. It's great for grip racing, but I want to be able to drift my cars after I'm done racing them, and I just like drifting w/o it better. HOWEVER, there's always an exeption, the D1GP CARS NEED IT TO BE ABLE TO DRIFT PROPERLY.
 
Only Greycap seems to have touched on this. But you should be able to adjust the under-steer out of the chassis with some judicious tweaking of the suspension.
I've only added the stiffening to the older (read that "high mileage") used cars that I occasionally buy.
It has improved the handling on most of them.
They will require more suspension tuning to "get right".
But for the most part, I prefer my cars with softer suspension.
I don't want them to "wallow", but I do like a more "definite" weight transfer.
I know a lot of the really fast guys like a stiff car. But a track like the Nurburgring is so much more pleasant to drive when the car is set up a little softer.
 
Which cars, in your opinion, work better or worse with the Chassis Stiffening!!?!??? :irked:
 
Gil
Only Greycap seems to have touched on this. But you should be able to adjust the under-steer out of the chassis with some judicious tweaking of the suspension.

Firstly, thanks for posting... BUT next time, when using words like "ONLY" try for a tad more accuracy with your reporting. Perhaps reading and trying to understand all posts would be a start.

Secondly, the main reason not many/any people acknowledged Greycap for his contribution is because he was wrong. he was sort of on the right track (ie that a cage changes the handling) and his solution was right (to adjust your suspension to fix your handling), but in this place that is all pretty much assumed knowledge. But his bit about a cage hardening your suspension is him drawing an incorrect conclusion from what he had witnessed.

Installing a stage 4 turbo doesn't harden your rear springs because you start oversteering more... higher downforce do not lower your power outputs because you can't drive as fast. i could go on, but i hope you get the drift.

onto drift. the general consensus is that cages improve handling on all cars. most people take handling to mean the grip sense - hence please don't take this out of context when it comes to drift setups.
 
Ezz777
...a car with a cage generally becomes more neutral (less one ended), making it easier to tune and better to drive.

That's a good way to put it. I never thought of it like that, but that's exactly the effect I've always seen it have.
 
In response to Ezz777:

Let me revise my statement for accuracy, "As I skimmed this thread, one of many like it, I only noticed Greycap's suggestion to fiddle with the suspension to compensate for the stiffening."
Is our ego intact now?:irked:

[sarcasm]Since, I've only been at this forum for about three and a half years, I apologize for my newb-ness.[/sarcasm]
I also have a little personal policy about skipping posts that don't adhere even a little bit with some sort of capitalization and punctuation. It's too hard to sort out the actual information. Now that I've gone back and sorted out your first post you did actually say some interesting stuff.
Now go back and fix the capitalization, etc. so those of us that can't be bothered to read, de-code posts will actually read it.

I try to cater my responses to interested noobs as well as to the know-it-alls, such as yourself.
There are, as hard as it is to believe, some people that play these games only semi-seriously, and *gasp* for their personal enjoyment.

Maybe, you should give some credence to simple solutions. If you haven't tried the KISS method, maybe you should.
So, Greycap's analysis of the actual problem was off. His method of correction is spot on. So was yours. But If you're both right, does it really matter that you're "more" right? Or is your ego too fragile to allow someone else to also be right, unless they are even more right than you?

There is nothing like discounting an easy solution to show oneself as closed-minded, or entirely too absorbed in creating a "high-tech" solution for a relatively "low-tech" problem.

I'm sorry if I bruised your ego by not paying attention to your first post.
Your second post, the one where you lambasted me, shows that you actually did pay attention in your third grade writing class. Hopefully, (if you expect me to read your posts) you'll continue this trend of writing easily readable posts in the future, and I won't offend you again by ignoring you.
 
I love this place. if its not people pWning their p00 p00 or whatever, its people atop their high horse...

1. Ego schmeego. I couldn't care less who reads and writes in this place, so long as they have a decent go at it. If you can't be bothered reading most of the posts here (because i very much doubt many are perfectly capitalised...) why do you read any? Limit yourself to a small segment of the information - hmm... no that can't be closed minded - you said i was - so you can't be. maybe you should work for the US army.

2. Capitalisation i will give you, so my shift key is on the blink, but the punctuation seemed sufficient as far as those who have read and understood were concerned. Should i have added some bright colours and arrows to make it more noticeable. maybe i should get a flashy sig. surely that is where ego steps in.

3. In terms of noticing my post (which as i have said doesn't particularly phase me) surely you noticed the fact that it had been quoted twice before you posted... or did you not bother with those other guys posts either.

4. onto credit for solutions. i feel i gave the guy a suitable amount of credit. given his 'simple solution' was pretty much 'adjust your suspension to help your handling'. **** buddy, you are right, we take this way too seriously, i am surprised anyone ever figured that out. that is like totally ground breaking. no way - like and turb0s make your go faster - this game is like so serious... I NEVER DISCOUNTED his solution.

Oh and by the way, in response to your "sarcasm". Good for you, i really should retract everything i have said, because you must be like a legend, or something...
 
LADIES PLEASE!!.. It's really starting to **** me that I find there's a new post in a thread I'm interested in and then find that people are b!tching about a response someone made.

Fair enough, I've been on both sides of the table, but just PM each other and settle it that way and leave the rest of us out of it..

Now back on topic.. Please.. :grumpy:
 
its been said before, but in a public forum, its pointless to respond privately.

when someone takes it off topic with little or no attempt at relevance on a purely personal nature, what are we meant to do?
 
OFF TOPIC

How about stating at the top that it's "OFF TOPIC" so, for those of us who don't care, can just move along..

Just a thought..
 
Ezz777
I love this place. if its not people pWning their p00 p00 or whatever, its people atop their high horse...

1. Ego schmeego. I couldn't care less who reads and writes in this place, so long as they have a decent go at it. If you can't be bothered reading most of the posts here (because i very much doubt many are perfectly capitalised...) why do you read any? Limit yourself to a small segment of the information - hmm... no that can't be closed minded - you said i was - so you can't be. maybe you should work for the US army.

2. Capitalisation i will give you, so my shift key is on the blink, but the punctuation seemed sufficient as far as those who have read and understood were concerned. Should i have added some bright colours and arrows to make it more noticeable. maybe i should get a flashy sig. surely that is where ego steps in.

3. In terms of noticing my post (which as i have said doesn't particularly phase me) surely you noticed the fact that it had been quoted twice before you posted... or did you not bother with those other guys posts either.

4. onto credit for solutions. i feel i gave the guy a suitable amount of credit. given his 'simple solution' was pretty much 'adjust your suspension to help your handling'. **** buddy, you are right, we take this way too seriously, i am surprised anyone ever figured that out. that is like totally ground breaking. no way - like and turb0s make your go faster - this game is like so serious... I NEVER DISCOUNTED his solution.

Oh and by the way, in response to your "sarcasm". Good for you, i really should retract everything i have said, because you must be like a legend, or something...

1). I did go back and sort your post out, and gve you credit where it was due.
When you've been here for more than three months, you'll note that a lot of stuff gets "recycled" and you'll skip over it too, if it doesn't meet your standards for readability. Or you'll live here and sort out a lot of POO! (your word, not mine)

2. You seem to have gotten your shift key to work, at least a little, for these two posts. And you produced another easily read post. See the AUP.
When you're ready, get as flashy a sig as you want. It will make your posts easier to find so you don't go re-reading the same tripe over and over again whilst trying to find the new stuff.

3. I actually did read the replies that quoted you. By the time you were quoted, you were not only hard to read, but smaller as well.

4. Your second sentence was: "Secondly, the reason not many/any people acknowledged Greycap's contribution is because he was wrong."
That sounds like your elevating your solution over his, even you both came to similar conclusions. But, your premise was more correct.

As for the 'sarcasm' and my status as a "legend": I'm no Rumple Foreskin, but among the old timers, I am if not a legend, well known:D
You don't have to retract anything. As you gave Greycap credit, I also gave you credit, upon discovering, and reading your comments. You were somewhat insightful.
KaiZen is correct. It is past time to get back on topic.
I have no desire to start a "thread war" with you.
In fact, I rarely get this "testy" with anyone. Unless they insinuate that I'm "dim".
Maybe, that wasn't your intention. But it "got my back up".

Sorry, I went off on you.


KaiZen I can't begin to tell you the cars that I've tried the chassis stiffening on. It won't hurt most cars. However, as Ezz777 said, if you set up the suspension before the stiffening, you will need to re-evaluate.
Also, tires are more of a factor in GT4, than they were in GT3.
The different levels of "grip" are way more noticeable as you change grades and types of tire.
With some cars, It will boil down to patience, and spending time tweaking the suspension and tires till you find the combo that works for you.
As well, you may need to have at least two set-up to account for "sprints" of less than 7 laps, and enduros.
 
OFF TOPIC

alrighty then, i guess we can consider the hatchet buried...

BUT (you knew it was coming, it is just too fun... so sorry to those adversly affected)

i kind of thought comments like: "Exactly - well said bud."

and

"That's a good way to put it. I never thought of it like that, but that's exactly the effect I've always seen it have."

would have suggested that there was little wrong with the way my original post read.

This isn't about credit for me. It is about spreading the word. one of the worst things about these multi post threads is people reading a comment from earlier on, then ignoring the rest. i know it is tough to dredge thru these threads for the glimmers of sense, but if you don't you can in fact add to the problem by perpetuating false statements.

Also i never insinuated you were dim in my 'lambastation' (if it ain't a word, it should be). I said pretty much flat out said you were too lazy to read and or understand all the other posts within the thread when making your reply. Not dim, lazy.

Speaking of elevating one's own opinion and insinuation of dimness, referring to third grade strikes me as being pretty ordinary an attitude to take. plus 3.5 years, really isn't that long a time. internet forums did exist more than 3.5 years ago, so it isn't like you are the be all and know all forum chatter.

My comments re his solution were more to point out that credit isn't all that useful if someone gets the right solution but for the wrong reasons. i dare say that when newton saw the apple drop (or however the story goes), he wouldn't have been all that well respected if he had reasoned that it was because a sparrow farted above it...

Oh, and i was never going to retract anything. that was said in pure jest.
 
OFF TOPIC

Gil
KaiZen is correct. It is past time to get back on topic..
Dude! You forgot to put "OFF TOPIC" at the top of your post! haha.. ;)



ON TOPIC

Gil
KaiZen I can't begin to tell you the cars that I've tried the chassis stiffening on. It won't hurt most cars. However, as Ezz777 said, if you set up the suspension before the stiffening, you will need to re-evaluate...
I'll be doing some testing on the weekend in my quest to find which 4WDs, in my opinion, can be made more drift-friendly by buying the Chassis Stiffening. I'll post my findings. I may even ask Fade to Black (Thread starter) to edit his first post so that it includes which cars have benifited or not.

eg. Nismo R32 Skyline S-Tune 👍 ..

Or something to that effect, and then add more cars as people post their findings/opinions. Or I might just start my own thread.. :sly:

And yes, I do agree that re-evaluating suspension settings is a must after the rollcage has been installed



Gil
Also, tires are more of a factor in GT4, than they were in GT3.
The different levels of "grip" are way more noticeable as you change grades and types of tire....
I also concur with this statement.. though excessive tyre wear can be an issue, abit of suspension tuning can dial it out to a certain degree.
 
Ezz777
OFF TOPIC

alrighty then, i guess we can consider the hatchet buried...

BUT (you knew it was coming, it is just too fun... so sorry to those adversly affected)

i kind of thought comments like: "Exactly - well said bud."

and

"That's a good way to put it. I never thought of it like that, but that's exactly the effect I've always seen it have."

would have suggested that there was little wrong with the way my original post read.

This isn't about credit for me. It is about spreading the word. one of the worst things about these multi post threads is people reading a comment from earlier on, then ignoring the rest. i know it is tough to dredge thru these threads for the glimmers of sense, but if you don't you can in fact add to the problem by perpetuating false statements.

Also i never insinuated you were dim in my 'lambastation' (if it ain't a word, it should be). I said pretty much flat out said you were too lazy to read and or understand all the other posts within the thread when making your reply. Not dim, lazy.

Speaking of elevating one's own opinion and insinuation of dimness, referring to third grade strikes me as being pretty ordinary an attitude to take. plus 3.5 years, really isn't that long a time. internet forums did exist more than 3.5 years ago, so it isn't like you are the be all and know all forum chatter.

My comments re his solution were more to point out that credit isn't all that useful if someone gets the right solution but for the wrong reasons. i dare say that when newton saw the apple drop (or however the story goes), he wouldn't have been all that well respected if he had reasoned that it was because a sparrow farted above it...

Oh, and i was never going to retract anything. that was said in pure jest.

OFF TOPIC:

Sometimes us "old timers" get a bit "crusty" cause there really isn't too much new under the sun around here.

If the "search" function was used, a lot of this could have been tacked onto one of the other dozens of threads concerning handling in GT4.

As well, I was in a "rude mood". I spend more time perusing now than digging thru most threads, as my internet time is limited.

And Newton more "felt" the effects of gravity, than saw it. Initially, the first apple fell on his noggin.:lol:
Nothing like getting bopped upside the head, and calling it science.:D
 
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