The Great Camber Experiment: Stage 1 "High Speed Ring" (closed/finished/ended)

[DolHaus]

That would be my wheel I'm running so far with in 0.600 seconds 0-3 camber I deleted the Google doc and am just filling lap times right now you can see it there.

Sounds much more like it, good job 👍

 

[MadMax]

@Johnnypenso , yes , too much camber is affecting straith line acceleration negatively.

Hi to all , I've been watching this thread for awhile now.

I was a top speed tuner in GT5 and the camber/s was something that needed fine tuning for optimal straith line acceleration. (on 10km speed test)



MadMax

 

[Otaliema]

Sounds much more like it, good job 👍

My goal is to have all the tests with in a 1.1 seconds of each other ideally with in a second.

yes , too much camber is affecting straith line acceleration negatively.

Agreed, but it also seems to help top end a bit couple km/h. Maybe it's the gearing on the Jag we are using but on the straight between T1&T2 I'm getting too 287/288 km/ h when over 4.0 camber and below that I was getting 286/287km/h

 

[ALB123]

I'm not sure there should be any "goals" set by the people submitting data. We should just be running the laps to the best of our ability and then, they are what they are. If you're not happy with how a set of laps turned out, you shouldn't re-run an entire segment. That's skewing results, in my opinion. As long as you can say that you ran consistently, your best lap time for each level of camber doesn't matter. It's not a contest. We're just trying to see how camber is affecting drivers performance, positively or negatively.

 

[DolHaus]

I'm not sure there should be any "goals" set by the people submitting data. We should just be running the laps to the best of our ability and then, they are what they are. If you're not happy with how a set of laps turned out, you shouldn't re-run an entire segment. That's skewing results, in my opinion. As long as you can say that you ran consistently, your best lap time for each level of camber doesn't matter. It's not a contest. We're just trying to see how camber is affecting drivers performance, positively or negatively.

I agree with the sentiment but in this instance the consistency wasn't there at all, I wouldn't have raised the issue otherwise 👍

My goal is to have all the tests with in a 1.1 seconds of each other ideally with in a second.

Just let the numbers lie where they fall, push as hard as you can but don't force yourself to meet targets. 👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I am curious about how you guys might explain some of the data that seems to conflict, at least to me.

0/0 and 3/3 have near identical lap times:

View attachment 290873


And yet 3/3 is faster in every corner but one and a higher average cornering speed:

View attachment 290874

Ignoring the stupidity in the camber thread in the general forum, there have been similar results from testing. Lap times end up equal but cornering speeds with camber were always higher. The difference was in terminal speeds, which were always higher without camber. I think you guys should be looking at terminal speeds as well. The main purpose of cornering in racing is to maximize corner exit speed and get on the throttle as early as possible and camber must be having an effect on these variables as well, otherwise cars that corner faster 5/6 times would have significantly faster lap times.

Basically it looks to me from this data, that any gains from camber through cornering are lost entirely or almost entirely in the case of 1.0/1.0 and 2.0/2.0, through entry/exit speed. Reporting on terminal speeds might help shed some light on that.

I think camber above zero needs an LSD to match as the tune was made for zero camber ( low initial and accel are the norm ). Increasing either preload or accel alone could help with the cambered tire to put power down more efficiently, especially on banked high speed turn The effect will be even more noticeable on sport tire like SM/SS and racing tire, where it can sustain much higher lateral grip and peak Gs. Also, too stiff rear roll bar, too stiff rear compression or mismatch rear extension can make rear tire with camber even harder to put down power on exit. All these if wanted to maximize the gain from camber use, maybe if @ALB123 interested to do extra test with me, I may be able to help with making the changes and we can share the result just for fun reading. We can post it on the "is camber fixed thread"

 

[Otaliema]

Just let the numbers lie where they fall, push as hard as you can but don't force yourself to meet targets.

@ALB123 i know and I know it won't happen but having that goal will keep me from settling with a bad lap cause I feel I was consistent with the set. As long as I the majority of the laps are close to each other I will be happy and with the 5.0 I couldn't break the 1:05 barrier no matter how hard I tried I could carry enough speed in turns 3-5.
Dolhaus I think your loading idea has some merit I've been noticing the higher the camber gets the shallower the steering angle before the outside front turns red.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

From my observation on my last posted build, a stance car, downforce or simply put more load on the tire with camber can help providing more usable lateral grip while stability also increased. I never expected a 3 front and 5 rear camber on CS tire ( 500 HP / 1450kg FR car ) can still be fairly grippy/stable around Big Willow and Grand Valley Speedway, then I saw that it has good amount of downforce at the front and rear ( funnily it has 2 to 3 aero ratio f/r, which usually means more rotation and easier to oversteer on lower grip tire, but it didn't ) I tried to put zero front camber with 5 rear, and it was an interesting drive The car was like a gamble to me, will anyone can find joy in driving it , it looks like a poorly stanced car that anyone would thought it will drive like a dog, luckily @danbojte gave me a clear answer that made my day
Just sharing one of my camber based build experience.

 

[DolHaus]

From my observation on my last posted build, a stance car, downforce or simply put more load on the tire with camber can help providing more usable lateral grip while stability also increased. I never expected a 3 front and 5 rear camber on CS tire ( 500 HP / 1450kg FR car ) can still be fairly grippy/stable around Big Willow and Grand Valley Speedway, then I saw that it has good amount of downforce at the front and rear ( funnily it has 2 to 3 aero ratio f/r, which usually means more rotation and easier to oversteer on lower grip tire, but it didn't ) I tried to put zero front camber with 5 rear, and it was an interesting drive The car was like a gamble to me, will anyone can find joy in driving it , it looks like a poorly stanced car that anyone would thought it will drive like a dog, luckily @danbojte gave me a clear answer that made my day
Just sharing one of my camber based build experience.

I do not wish to discuss such matters in this thread, this thread is for collecting data and discussing the results of the experiments. Conjecture and circumstance only help to fuel the arguments that make this topic such a minefield and I wish to stay clear of this as much as possible.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Okay, I'll stop My bad, carry on with testing folks, neglect what I wrote, don't want any more drama

 

[Otaliema]

Lap times so far. Laptop died so had to make note of the times someplace I removed the Google apps from my phone they didn't work right so can't edit my docs on my phone.

3.0 1:05.746
4.0 1:05.827
5.0 1:06.200
6.0 1.06.528
7.0 1:07.125
I started to see double and my arms were hurting gonna redo 7.0 tomorrow and finish the set. I did save the lap in case I can't better it, it may just be at 7.0 it's lost so much grip I can't hold it any faster.

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus I wont be getting you the data today, my baby girl woke up at midnight and went back to sleep at 3am so I'm not awake enough to drive consistanly today, barring unforseeen circumstances I'll get the rest tomorrow.

 

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus I wont be getting you the data today, my baby girl woke up at midnight and went back to sleep at 3am so I'm not awake enough to drive consistanly today, barring unforseeen circumstances I'll get the rest tomorrow.

Thats cool, no rush 👍

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus alright finally!!!!!! all 11 tests at HSR are done, exported and cleaned up and loaded in to the google document.
HSR Camber testing

basic interuptionations based on feel and speeds.
0.0 camber is more consistant feel from one turn to the next.
1.0 camber fastest but had an odd issue with T5 it was the only setting that I couldn't floor it through the turn it would spin. other wise great.
2.0 good all around started scrubbing speed at exit from here on to 10.0

7.0+ just hard to hold any speed at mid-exit line very very important. One note if the car went sideways it was easier to recover it 7-9 camber only two complete spins in this range over 45 laps. below this camber I averaged a total spin once every 15 laps.

 

[TurnLeft]

@DolHaus alright finally!!!!!! all 11 tests at HSR are done, exported and cleaned up and loaded in to the google document.
HSR Camber testing

basic interuptionations based on feel and speeds.
0.0 camber is more consistant feel from one turn to the next.
1.0 camber fastest but had an odd issue with T5 it was the only setting that I couldn't floor it through the turn it would spin. other wise great.
2.0 good all around started scrubbing speed at exit from here on to 10.0

7.0+ just hard to hold any speed at mid-exit line very very important. One note if the car went sideways it was easier to recover it 7-9 camber only two complete spins in this range over 45 laps. below this camber I averaged a total spin once every 15 laps.

Nice work 👍, it took more time than you anticipated but you made it through, and in once piece . So I guess we'll see you in the other thread now, let the fun begin .

 

[Otaliema]

Nice work 👍, it took more time than you anticipated but you made it through, and in once piece . So I guess we'll see you in the other thread now, let the fun begin .

yeah well 400 laps to get 11 sets of data too much inconsistency Yes i'll be heading over to Silverstone now proly tuesday. Working on my tuning guide now. I've logged more time on track in the last two weeks than I did in all of November

 

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus alright finally!!!!!! all 11 tests at HSR are done, exported and cleaned up and loaded in to the google document.
HSR Camber testing

basic interuptionations based on feel and speeds.
0.0 camber is more consistant feel from one turn to the next.
1.0 camber fastest but had an odd issue with T5 it was the only setting that I couldn't floor it through the turn it would spin. other wise great.
2.0 good all around started scrubbing speed at exit from here on to 10.0

7.0+ just hard to hold any speed at mid-exit line very very important. One note if the car went sideways it was easier to recover it 7-9 camber only two complete spins in this range over 45 laps. below this camber I averaged a total spin once every 15 laps.

Just been entering your data and everything looks fine except for the speed, it seems to be giving your peak speeds in the corner rather than the speed at the peak Lateral G. Its either that or you are somehow going through turn 2 40mph faster than everyone else

 

[Otaliema]

It

Just been entering your data and everything looks fine except for the speed, it seems to be giving your peak speeds in the corner rather than the speed at the peak Lateral G. Its either that or you are somehow going through turn 2 40mph faster than everyone else

prolly is not the speed at peak g load I'll grab the comp and get the data from the graphs. It's min max avg speed for the turns not at particular point sorry I'll get that sorted out give me half hour or so.

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus i'm working camber level 8 now so almost done. you could prolly go through and input the data and i'll be just about done or done by the time you catch up at this point.

All done.
Somethings I noticed.
Turn 1 Max load was hit Mid corner below camber 5 and Early exit above camber 5
Turn 2 Max load was hit at early to late entry with the exception of Camber 9 where it was the at exit *second fastest speed btw smoothest line*
Turn 3 was always at the very end of the turn
Turn 4 was always at the very start of the turn
Turn 5 was always at Mid

 

[DolHaus]

The data has been updated, I'm probably not going to get a chance to update the graphs or play around with the data over the next week so if anyone else wants to have a go then be my guest 👍

 

[DolHaus]

Double post

 

[CSLACR]

I do not wish to discuss such matters in this thread, this thread is for collecting data and discussing the results of the experiments. Conjecture and circumstance only help to fuel the arguments that make this topic such a minefield and I wish to stay clear of this as much as possible.

Coming from someone that spent many hours and great effort doing/trying to do similar things, I recommend that you invite yourself to the possibility that a small group of people will be around to tell you any results you get are inaccurate. (cause of blah blah, and blah blah, and don't forget, blah blah blah)

Kudos on the effort put forth here, it's certainly inspirational to see people putting such an effort into making science of it all. 👍

 

[DolHaus]

Coming from someone that spent many hours and great effort doing/trying to do similar things, I recommend that you invite yourself to the possibility that a small group of people will be around to tell you any results you get are inaccurate. (cause of blah blah, and blah blah, and don't forget, blah blah blah)

Kudos on the effort put forth here, it's certainly inspirational to see people putting such an effort into making science of it all. 👍

I know, I have tried to make the test as watertight as possible but I am well aware that there will always be those who might disagree with the findings, such is life on the internet

We are not trying to prove anything one way or another, we all know that camber does something in game but I don't think any single person can describe its exact function, the aim of this is to be able to describe the effects with some degree of certainty. Once these effects are established this will hopefully allow us to asses if it is a viable tuning option or whether it just needs to be left alone 👍

Thank you for the support and if you get the chance to run the tests then your data would be most welcome

 

[danbojte]

...

Wow! Welcome back, Sir!

 

[Juim1j]

Any conclusion yet?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Any conclusion yet?

Since this thread died in January and many of the players from this thread already responded to your camber question in your thread, I would say that no new conclusions rose from this testing.

 

[DolHaus]

Any conclusion yet?

The results were inconclusive, this experiment showed gains at 1.0 F/R across a range of samples but to prove this as conclusive would require an incredible amount of data from a huge range of sources. Finding any accurate conclusions is all but impossible using this medium of testing

 

[Otaliema]

Any conclusion yet?

Along the lines of what @DolHaus said, the tests showed gains at 1.0 but in practice for racing and TT's 0.0 is still proving fastest 95% of the time. I think in rally some camber is helping but. If yuo look at posted top level TT tunes they are almost all 0.0 camber toe settings.

 

[OdeFinn]

The results were inconclusive, this experiment showed gains at 1.0 F/R across a range of samples but to prove this as conclusive would require an incredible amount of data from a huge range of sources. Finding any accurate conclusions is all but impossible using this medium of testing

Camber 0 - 1.0 can be used without altering toe, not optimal but giving gain as your tests showed, higher camber values should be matched with corresponding toe value to get gain from it. Tyre compound has big role on GT6 and camber, softer can handle bigger camber values better. Too many other thing should be counted in on this test, but it gives good direction for thinking anyway.
Even those under 1.0 camber values can give more gain if toe is used properly with it.
On/Off testing camber just gives biased results
Thanks for doing this experimental with camber here.

 

[rosckolove]

If yuo look at posted top level TT tunes they are almost all 0.0 camber toe settings.

I was fully aware that top TT drivers were using 0.0 camber all the way around, but was unaware that they were using 0.0 toe as well. Can anyone confirm that 0.0 toe is the common practice for top TT times?

 

[Otaliema]

I was fully aware that top TT drivers were using 0.0 camber all the way around, but was unaware that they were using 0.0 toe as well. Can anyone confirm that 0.0 toe is the common practice for top TT times?

You just need to go through past TT threads and find the few that have tubes posted by a top twenty driver mainly the TRL guys around here.
They will use toe if a car has particular driving problem that can't be fixed with springs ride height and lsd settings. But most of the time 0.0/0.0 is on the car as it gives a neutral handling at entry and exit with out reduction of grip at any place in the corner.