The Grosjean question.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ardius
  • 67 comments
  • 11,681 views

What should happen to Grosjean?

  • Give him the chance to improve (no penalty)

    Votes: 29 34.1%

  • Have the GPDA, team or FIA give some harsh words

    Votes: 28 32.9%

  • Hand him yet another 1-race ban

    Votes: 8 9.4%

  • Take his super license off him

    Votes: 9 10.6%

  • Make him start from the pit lane

    Votes: 11 12.9%
  • Total voters
    85
Ardius

Ardius

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Ardius_
After serving a race ban and being condemned from teams, drivers and commentators up and down the paddock, Grosjean yet again got involved in a first lap collision today.

So I'm interested to know - what do people think should happen to him? Is it a case of him being under huge pressure not to crash that he ends up doing it anyway? Or is it a case of the punishments not being strong enough? Is it fair to heavily penalise him but not Maldonado?
 
Discipline from the GPDA and another ban, but possibly a suspended sentence this time.
 
He needs to be more patient, it's like the guy thinks he can race like he can on Gran Turismo.
 
He served his penalty. It's not often we see a stop go in F1 these days.

It was foolish driving, but it wasn't ridiculous. I don't think taking it further is necessary.
 
Stevisiov
He served his penalty. It's not often we see a stop go in F1 these days.

It was foolish driving, but it wasn't ridiculous. I don't think taking it further is necessary.
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How many more penalties does he need though. It is getting ridiculous, he was inches from taking Alonso's head off at Spa, got a ban and is still being unprofessional. He needs to be banned for the rest of the season.
 
He did serve his penalty. Harsh words is all that can be given now. FIA made an error in handing him a stop and go mid race.
 
He seems like a capable racer and a solid driver for the team but he makes bad choices and dosnt seem to learn from them
 
I don't always agree with Coulthard... but he pointed out today that surviving the first lap is all about instinct, and Grosjean seems lacking in that department.

We've seen various accidents from him this season that might have ended much more badly than they did. We can say for certain that he's forced several championship contenders to retire completely at the beginning of several race events.

On the basis of his performance this season I believe that Grosjean should have his superlicence suspended for three months.

This is, of course, only my opinion. Yours may well differ and I completely support your right to disagree :D
 
wow I totally disagree with you guys. This is racing not a penalty game. Stuff happen, it's not like he did anything really dangerous. Yes he bang on Webber but it wasnt that dangerous come on. This is racing, there's incident in racing, if you watch all the other series there's always bump or people hitting each others, beeing GP2, GP3, formula Renault, porsche cup, SuperGt, DTM, Nascar, Indycar, any kind of racing you'll have incident.

He didnt injured anyone and even in Spa I thought the penalty was a bit harsh. Yes the wreck could have been really dangerous but Grosjean didnt really do anything that dangerous.

It's funny how F1 became a sports for crybaby. 10 years ago, Webber would have come to Grosjean motorhome after the GP, scream a bit or even take him by the collar then everything would have been cleared, now people demand stuff like 3 month ban or even his superlicence suspended this is just crazy for me.

I've hear Laffite saying not so long ago that before some driver knew, that when they were going into the F1, there life was at risk. It was part of the game. I'm glad this time is over but not let's go to the other side and have drive be like grandma.

Anyway just my opinion, i respect yours but dont agree ^^
 
I'm not so certain this incident was fully his fault. The replay showed Webber checking up for some reason... it couldn't have been for Vettel or Kobayashi as both had pulled away from Webber before turn 1.

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Webber checking up for whatever reason didn't give Grosjean time to react so he could avoid any incident, but it's not like Grosjean had anywhere he could go.

So, let's not jump to conclusions every time something happens during a GP.
 
GTPorsche
I'm not so certain this incident was fully his fault. The replay showed Webber checking up for some reason... it couldn't have been for Vettel or Kobayashi as both had pulled away from Webber before turn 1.

Maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Webber checking up for whatever reason didn't give Grosjean time to react so he could avoid any incident, but it's not like Grosjean had anywhere he could go.

So, let's not jump to conclusions every time something happens during a GP.
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Grosjean said he was checking Perez which was on his side and didnt saw that Mark had slow down that much. I'm not exactly sure why Webber slowed down neither to be honest.
 
How was he in Formula Three, GP2 and Sports Cars? I remember his name from GP2, but don't really recall how he drove.
 
I'd say leave it for the next race, he took a penalty in the race today and that should be the end of it. However if it happens again at the next race then I'd say suspend him for the rest of the season.

RX-7_FD3S
It's funny how F1 became a sports for crybaby. 10 years ago, Webber would have come to Grosjean motorhome after the GP, scream a bit or even take him by the collar then everything would have been cleared, now people demand stuff like 3 month ban or even his superlicence suspended this is just crazy for me
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I find it funny you say this. In singapore when Michael rear-ended Vergne the first thing I thought when Vergne was walking up to Schumacher was "He's gonna hit him one" but then he didn't and they cuddled. I can't remember the last time someone wrecked someone elses race and got a smack in the mouth for it.
 
I thought it was just a coincidence up until now that he's been involved in so many incidents.

But from this incident I think it's clear; The guy just lacks the awareness of the cars around him required to be able to race wheel to wheel at these sorts of speeds.

Peasantslayer hit the nail on the head:

Peasantslayer
We have almost come to expect an incident involving Grosjean whenever he qualifies well, Pastor seems to crash because he's aggressive so he could change, where as Grosjean seems to crash because he has very poor awareness.
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You could compare him to his teammate Raikkonen, who probably has the most spacial awareness of any driver on the grid. Grosjean is a fast driver, and a good overtaker when it's straightforward. But on the first lap when it's a little more crowded he just can't navigate his way around the track without hitting someone.

I know the feeling from playing iRacing; sometimes it happens, whether it's a mistake on your part or just bad luck. But they're rookie mistakes, you're expected to filter those sort of mistakes out as you gain experience and improve your awareness. Over time you develop the foresight and awareness to keep yourself out of trouble.

It's a bit of a dilemma as to what to do. Spa was a dangerous one, hence the race ban. But can you seriously ban him because he might do it again? I'm of the opinion that he will lose his drive all by himself if he continues, he doesn't need to have his superlicense revoked. The problem arises when you consider that someone could get injured or even killed by one of these rookie mistakes. I think consultation from the drivers is what is needed, as it comes down to a matter of safety. If the drivers feel that Grosjean's driving puts them at risk then he should be forced to walk away from the sport.

Personally I think a stern talking to is enough for now. But if he has a couple more minor first lap incidents, or one major one (That requires a safety car), he should recieve a multi-race ban. If he continues to do it for much longer he needs to be ousted from the sport on the grounds that he poses a risk to others.
 
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As far as I know, he isn't signed to any contract for next season, so at this point they should just let it play out and see how he removes himself from the car.
 
I thought Lotus had announced they were keeping both Kimi and Romain next year?
 
Seismica
I thought it was just a coincidence up until now that he's been involved in so many incidents.
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Same here, I felt Melbourne was somewhat of a racing incident though Romain could have backed off from it.
And I don't think he was at all to blame for Monaco.

But even so, the sheer number of incidents just raises the question. The thing is other than Spa and maybe Sepang I don't feel his driving has been too aggressive per se but more he maybe he isn't giving himself enough of a safety gap to other cars.

I actually think he's come back from his ban trying extra hard not to get involved in incidents but doing so "e.g. focusing on Perez rather than both Perez and Webber) he's actually only causing more incidents. Perhaps he's now got into a cycle where he has an incident and gets even more paranoid over it that he goes into the next race even more on-edge and so on.

I think most drivers, especially the experienced drivers give themselves extra margins on the first lap precisely because anything can happen. They plan on braking earlier than they normally do and carefully pick their lines in corners attempting to plan ahead.
Perhaps Grosjean needs guidance in this? I find it bizarre that a driver can reach F1 and need to be taught how to handle the first racing lap of GPs but other than that I don't really understand how he can be involved in so many incidents.

I agree that its ultimately going to be the team that should act on it (if it continues) and find someone else to drive because he's clearly not helping them.
But if the team continue to back him up...then unfortunately I think this is grounds to revoke his super license.
 
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I think people need to leave him alone at the moment because it's starting to feel like a witch hunt. Honestly, I felt really bad for him today. He was almost in tears when he was talking to the media.

However, he have to learn. You simply can't be involved in so many incidents, even though some of them aren't his fault.

Ardius
I actually think he's come back from his ban trying extra hard not to get involved in incidents but doing so "e.g. focusing on Perez rather than both Perez and Webber) he's actually only causing more incidents. Perhaps he's now got into a cycle where he has an incident and gets even more paranoid over it that he goes into the next race even more on-edge and so on.
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Agree.
 
I think he needs a year on the sidelines. Not as a ban, but filling in a support role, like the one Bottas and Bianchi have now. I'm seeing shades of Felipe Massa - exaggerated shades, to be sure - in Grosjean. He's undeniably quick, but he totally lacks the refinement that he needs to stay in the sport. Massa took a year off and Ferrari straightened him out, and he was an altogether faster, sharper and smarter driver. Grosjean desperately needs that.
 
RX-7_FD3S
wow I totally disagree with you guys. This is racing not a penalty game. Stuff happen, it's not like he did anything really dangerous. Yes he bang on Webber but it wasnt that dangerous come on. This is racing, there's incident in racing, if you watch all the other series there's always bump or people hitting each others, beeing GP2, GP3, formula Renault, porsche cup, SuperGt, DTM, Nascar, Indycar, any kind of racing you'll have incident.
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I agree with you. Sure for bonehead moves a penalty is applicable but not every time drivers have a coming together, gets a bit ridiculous.

I think it was as much Webbers fault as Grosjean. Webber backed off for no apparent reason and Grosjean ran into the back of him. It wasn't that bad and I was surprised he got the penalty at all.
 
Classic
He needs to be more patient, it's like the guy thinks he can race like he can on Gran Turismo.
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He is an Xbox racer, maybe that is the problem.

Just joking:sly:.


First time I saw him with a proper unhappy face, maybe he will take it more serious this problem and analyse all cars around him instead of one. Might come good for the rest of the season hopefully.
 
Ardius
So I'm interested to know - what do people think should happen to him?
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Nothing. Although the responsibility is on Grosjean's side since he's driving behind, in my opinion it's only Webber himself who is to blame for the incident. Vettel and Kobayashi both had a good start and were running away from him, so Webber didn't have to anticipate them at the first corner. Why Webber still decided to brake unnecessary early, I have no idea. That he brakes early can easily be seen in the vid Pagey279 posted in the Japanese GP thread:



The video posted by hornet_burnout shows that Grosjean didn't overshoot the second part of the first corner.



You can see he was able to hold the inside line up until he drove into Webber. If he would have gone too fast into the corner, he would have locked up a wheel or drift wide and run into Perez. None of that happened. Even Perez was able to stay alongside on the outside, he didn't drift wide either. It's also not a late-apex corner where Grosjean could have been tempted to go for a gap that wasn't there. He should have hit Webber on the side as well then.

Taking all that into account, I can only come to the conclusion that it was a racing incident caused by Webber's car slowing down to an extent you wouldn't expect in this field of drivers. I think almost any driver would have driven into the back of Webber if he would have found himself in the position Grosjean was. Therefore no further action should be taken from my point of view.

Although I have no real-life racing experience and my 'knowledge' and understanding of racecraft comes from reading, watching races and racing online in Gran Turismo, I wonder why I often have a different view on incidents than the 'experts' of race control and in the commentary boxes.
Can anyone point me to comments from 'experts' with real racing/F1 experience who don't blame Grosjean for this incident?
 
Anyone else spot the possibly ironic situation that Grosjean's poor awareness of other cars isn't improving as he's rarely in a Grand Prix long enough to learn how to drive in traffic?...

Incidentally, I agree with HB above - Webber was dithering somewhat through that turn, and it wouldn't surprise me if other drivers would have run into the back of him too. It was just unfortunate that it had to be Grosjean again. If Grosjean was lacking spacial awareness, then Webber was lacking balls to go a bit quicker.
 
HB's post sums it all up really.

It may have been Grosjean's responsibility to take precaution in the first corner, but Webber also played quite a part in it too, as he had a poor start and slowed down quite noticeably mid corner, causing the unfortunate incident to occur.

I think that most people should try analyse the situation with more detail, before just immediately jumping on the Grosjean hate bandwagon, by calling for excessive punishments.

Besides, I'm sure most of us (who don't just immediately jump to unreasonable conclusions) can tell that he sincerely wants to get over his mistakes, maybe he could do so by first consulting with fellow racers, especially to build up his confidence + mutual respect with other drivers.
 
I think it would set a bad precedent to ban him, he's not intentionally dangerous (like Schuey on Barrichello for example), and he's hardly incompetent given his performances when his manages to survive the first lap, he's just not great in certain situations... surely it's a self regulating situation - if he's that bad how long will the team keep him out there. Do we really want a rule that says if you are involved in and/or caused x number of first lap incidents you will be banned from the sport?
 
MatskiMonk
I think it would set a bad precedent to ban him, he's not intentionally dangerous (like Schuey on Barrichello for example), and he's hardly incompetent given his performances when his manages to survive the first lap, he's just not great in certain situations... surely it's a self regulating situation - if he's that bad how long will the team keep him out there. Do we really want a rule that says if you are involved in and/or caused x number of first lap incidents you will be banned from the sport?
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Two words,
Yuji Ide
 
Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with those saying that Webber was ridiculously slow - if we take Kobayashi as a further reference point Grosjean does have a fairly hefty closing speed.
Certainly the way Grosjean and Perez were entering the corner, they were going in with a much higher corner entry speed. But perhaps they would have run slightly wide and hence had to back off..whereas those ahead were taking the tighter and slower entry for the better exit.

I mean, that corner is a bit like that - the ideal line is one that tends to have a slower entry speed, which is why Schumacher could pull off an overtake like he did on di Resta - because he carried more speed into the entry to take the inside..while di Resta was busy trying to stick on the optimum line - he surprised di Resta.

Even if Webber was being surprisingly slow...its still Grosjean's job to avoid that. Its really not a good attribute for a racing to get focused on one car beside him and ignore everything else.

Personally I think it was a combination of that corner, Perez being on his outside and perhaps a bit of Webber being surprisingly slow that caught Romain out. I wouldn't blame just Webber for this - not to mention for all we know Webber backed off with a little oversteer on cold tyres or any number of reasons.

Either way its not what he needs right now and it brings this question up of what to do about a guy who has this many first lap incidents. Its a very strange coincidence.
 
While Ide did have his superlicence suspended, it was because the FIA felt that he was not ready for Formula 1. They'd be considerably hard-pressed to justify suspending Grosjean's licence indefinately, given that he has three podium finishes to his name.
 

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