The Grosjean question.

[Seismica]

I think this is relevant:

Possible language warning (I don't know what the rule is for words half censored with stars).

http://i.imgur.com/VtRID.jpg

 

[Radracing]

I think this is relevant:

Possible language warning (I don't know what the rule is for words half censored with stars).

http://i.imgur.com/VtRID.jpg

You have to add the part where Kimi is thinking to himself right at the first corner of Suzuka when he was next to Alonso. " Okay Alonso if you don't give me the space I will take you out or even the both of us because I win either way." Taken from a lesson from Arton Senna. Kimi manage to salvage some points to catch Alonso even without getting a podium finish. It was a win, win situation for Kimi. 💡

 

[Jimlaad43]

You have to add the part where Kimi is thinking to himself right at the first corner of Suzuka when he was next to Alonso. " Okay Alonso if you don't give me the space I will take you out or even the both of us because I win either way." Taken from a lesson from Arton Senna. Kimi manage to salvage some points to catch Alonso even without getting a podium finish. It was a win, win situation for Kimi. 💡

That crash was not Kimis fault, it was all Alonso.He just got away without an investigation because he was in a Ferrari.

 

[Hugo Boss]

I mean, that corner is a bit like that - the ideal line is one that tends to have a slower entry speed, which is why Schumacher could pull off an overtake like he did on di Resta - because he carried more speed into the entry to take the inside..while di Resta was busy trying to stick on the optimum line - he surprised di Resta.

I don't agree on that. The ideal line doesn't have a slow entry speed, only requires a late apex. That allows you to take a high speed into the corner, but requires you to stay on the outside a bit longer to ensure you don't compromise your exit. That leaves room that Schumacher used to pass Di Resta, even though Schumacher needed the help of di Resta for that. However, Grosjean wasn't even near enough to try that move and Webber covered the inside line enough. In my opinion he just slowed down too much, leaving Grosjean nowhere to go.

Regarding the overtake of Schumacher on di Resta, it was di Resta who left the ideal line in the first part of the corner because he didn't shut the door going into turn 1. Maybe he thought Schumacher was already on the inside, but di Resta steered in too late, compromising his corner speed and leaving room for Schumacher on the inside, who took the opportunity brilliantly.
It was the small error of di Resta that gave Schumacher the opportunity, not the layout of the corner.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

To be honest, despite all the hate Grosjean is receiving at the moment, I'm with the others thinking that this latest incident wasn't actually his fault. Webber's driving behaviour was strange, and his very strong words post-race were pretty uncalled for regarding the incident. Mark was unusually slow there, both Grosjean and Perez would have easily made that corner together, and you can see that Perez was surprised by Mark's bizarre lack of speed and had to take evasive action before Webber even span around.

Perhaps someone should investigate Mark's consistently poor slow starts that seem to cause problems for the rest of the field behind him if he is insulting other drivers so much about their own driving.

 

[Radracing]

That crash was not Kimis fault, it was all Alonso.He just got away without an investigation because he was in a Ferrari.

I wasn't implying that because I know Alonso could have given Kimi more room. Alonso got what he deserved even thou I'm a fan of his. Its those times of split second decision that will give you the results in your favor or work the complete opposite.

Now in this situation Alonso gambling on not giving Kimi room and Kimi gambling on forcing to hold his. Looks like Kimi won and it would have been a win, win situation for Kimi even if he ended up crashing with Alonso. Its like the "Crashgate" situation with a twist. Might be a Renault Lotus game plan. If you can't beat them crash them.

 

[HeXoSKEL3t0n]

I wasn't implying that because I know Alonso could have given Kimi more room. Alonso got what he deserved even thou I'm a fan of his. Its those times of split second decision that will give you the results in your favor or work the complete opposite.

Now in this situation Alonso gambling on not giving Kimi room and Kimi gambling on forcing to hold his. Looks like Kimi won and it would have been a win, win situation for Kimi even if he ended up crashing with Alonso. Its like the "Crashgate" situation with a twist. Might be a Renault Lotus game plan. If you can't beat them crash them.

I don't think it's Lotus' intention to crash out anyone, we aren't talking about Briatore and Symonds being in the team anymore.

Raikkonen and Boullier are certainly not the type to think of these type of stuff. It was just a typical first corner incident IMO, which was partly due to increasing tensions in the championship battle, with both drivers risking to edge each other out for any extra possible points.

 

[Ardius]

I don't agree on that. The ideal line doesn't have a slow entry speed, only requires a late apex. That allows you to take a high speed into the corner, but requires you to stay on the outside a bit longer to ensure you don't compromise your exit. That leaves room that Schumacher used to pass Di Resta, even though Schumacher needed the help of di Resta for that. However, Grosjean wasn't even near enough to try that move and Webber covered the inside line enough. In my opinion he just slowed down too much, leaving Grosjean nowhere to go.

Regarding the overtake of Schumacher on di Resta, it was di Resta who left the ideal line in the first part of the corner because he didn't shut the door going into turn 1. Maybe he thought Schumacher was already on the inside, but di Resta steered in too late, compromising his corner speed and leaving room for Schumacher on the inside, who took the opportunity brilliantly.
It was the small error of di Resta that gave Schumacher the opportunity, not the layout of the corner.

Just to explain what I mean (not suggesting you don't understand, just I feel I need to illustrate this), a quick MS paint job:

The blue line is Webber (or Di Resta) and the red line is Grosjean (or Schumacher).
The blue line is the ideal line for the corner - compromising the entry of the second corner/section to get the best exit to start the Esses. The red line is a faster entry into the second section but ends either running wide or having to slow down more than usual to make the corner.

I think Grosjean's different line to Webber (as well as Perez distracting him, etc) led to the speed difference.

I think Webber wasn't actually being any more slower than "normal" but the perspective from Grosjean gives an exaggerated sense of speed differential.

It would be interesting to see the Webber onboard at least.

 

[Radracing]

I don't think it's Lotus' intention to crash out anyone, we aren't talking about Briatore and Symonds being in the team anymore.

Raikkonen and Boullier are certainly not the type to think of these type of stuff. It was just a typical first corner incident IMO, which was partly due to increasing tensions in the championship battle, with both drivers risking to edge each other out for any extra possible points.

Yeah, I agree totally. I was just trying to be funny. Anyway I hope Alonso will just focus on racing people instead of pulling desperate stunts like that. As far as Grosjean is concerned I think he should just try to be conservative in the first corner and wait until the cars line up through the lap and just pick them off one at a time. He has to realize his strategy of trying to pass as many cars as you can in the first corner is not going to win him races as well as friends.

I think this Image explains it all. If you are taking a different line you will have two different points of where to slow down for your two different apex points. So really its still the guy behind responsibility to make sure you don't hit the guy in front. Really no point for Webber to brake check the guy in the back to risk getting spun out or cutting his tires.

 

[Hugo Boss]

Correct. Only from my experience in GT5, the ideal line is situated inbetween your red and blue line at the second part of the corner (or turn 2 actually). The difference in speed between Webber and Grosjean should have been a lot smaller than was actually the case. That leads me to believe that Webber was driving slower than normal.

I think Webber wasn't actually being any more slower than "normal" but the perspective from Grosjean gives an exaggerated sense of speed differential.

Found an onboard video of Grosjean, that leads me to believe Webber was slower than "normal":



You can clearly see Vettel going for your blue line, using all of the available tarmac. Kobayashi goes for your red line and closes in on Vettel on the entry and loses ground on the exit.
It looks like Webber wanted to go for the slow in, fast out option just as Vettel. In contrary to Vettel, he doesn't use all the available tarmac. Using your illustration, Webber started on the red line, wanting to switch to the blue line during the first part of turn 2. That automatically reduces your cornering speed even more and forces you to go back on the throttle later. With Grosjean following the red line perfectly (he has no trouble at all keeping the inside line, even Perez is able to follow him on the outside) trying to keep Perez behind him, he then finds a relatively slow Webber on his way.

Although by no means I could have taken that corner quicker than Webber, he should have decided to take more speed into the corner as soon as he noticed he had about 3 feet of tarmac left on the left side of his car at corner entry. Can't blame Grosjean at all then in my opinion. It's just an unlucky outcome of the combination of a tiny error from Webber and Grosjean and Perez fighting for position right behind him.

 

[Ardius]

^I fully agree with that - I too think Webber was effectively trying to get the exit right and ditched both the entry and mid-corner speed to do that - my point is what is wrong with that?
Why does that even pardon Grosjean at all? I still maintain that its Romain's responsibility to not run into him - was it predictable for Webber to slow like that? I think its relatively predictable in that corner.

Its worth noting that Perez on the outside line did actually slow in time, but he however was on a slightly slower line.

I still think if you repeatedly pause the video just as they go through the corners, you can see that Webber isn't excessively slow compared to Kobayashi ahead of him. He seems to brake slightly earlier/harder than Kobayashi (perhaps distracted by the two ahead of him or thinking Kobayashi was about to pile into Vettel) but after that all the way to the contact, Webber's distance to KK is about the same.
The only thing that changes in that video is Grosjean's entry into the corner is far faster than both Perez next to him and Webber ahead. He even gains on Kobayashi.

I don't know, if it was me in that situation (and I've been there before too in GT5), I'd back off a fair bit more than Romain did. I think he was trying to claim the line off Perez a little too much that he forgot about the cars ahead.
I've seen so many similar incidents online in GT5P and GT5 - where the car ahead is trying to get the best exit whereas the guy behind is too busy trying to out brake other cars or the car ahead.

 

[Dennisch]

Romain Grosjean desperate to avoid more first-lap trouble

Romain Grosjean has promised to do all he can to avoid further first-lap incidents, in the wake of his collision with Mark Webber in Japan.

The Frenchman faced intense criticism - and a face-to-face confrontation with his Australian rival – for the part he played in a crash with the Red Bull driver at the second corner at Suzuka.

Coming so soon after Grosjean's race ban for the Belgian Grand Prix startline pile-up, Webber and Red Bull chiefs suggested that the Lotus driver's behaviour was 'unacceptable.'

Grosjean has apologised to Webber for the incident – which came, he says, because he was trying so hard to avoid a crash with Sergio Perez that he misjudged his closing speed to the car ahead of him.

"Since Singapore, I've been trying to be really cautious at the starts and it's been all the more frustrating to be involved in an incident in Japan," explained Grosjean.

"When approaching the first corner, I was watching Sergio on my left to make sure there was no contact with him. I didn't expect such a big speed difference between me and Mark braking into the corner, we collided and that was it.

"It was a stupid mistake. Mark came to see me after the race and was obviously not happy, but I apologised and we have to move on.

"I've sat down and looked at things again with the team; for sure it's still an area we need to improve. We're clearly focusing on this area for the next races."

Team boss Eric Boullier reckons rivals are pushing Grosjean hard because they know he has to be cautious – and thinks the Frenchman's latest problem has come from trying too hard to not crash.

"We could see in Singapore, when Romain was back after his race ban, that some other drivers were putting extra pressure on him at the start," he explained.

"In Suzuka, Romain made a small mistake by misjudging his pace relative to Mark, which was a bit higher. We have sat down and spoken.

"We understand what has to be done. I think in Singapore to an extent and in Suzuka he was almost trying to overcompensate by focusing on staying out of trouble, which in the last race had the opposite effect."

Autosport.com

 

[Ardius]

Well Boullier does have a good point about other drivers taking advantage and pushing him harder than normal because they know he is on thin ice.
However I really doubt that Webber or Perez was doing that here.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see him get bullied in the next few races on track but to be fair he hasn't exactly earned the other driver's respect either. Bit of a catch-22 as I think most of us agree.

Really Grosjean just needs to get the luck to have a nice clean start and not get put into a position like these where he either over-compensates or allows himself to get bullied. Its difficult as its nothing he can really do about it except hope he doesn't get put in the situation.
But then that begs the question surely a driver at the top of motorsport should be able to cope with these situations?!

A bit of mental strength is key here I guess - and its why Maldonado is seen in a different light. Maldonado clearly has a strong mental strength and believes in himself, it seems he doesn't question his own actions very much.

Whereas drivers like Grosjean seem to question themselves a bit too much, which gets them in more incidents and the cycle continues. I'd put Senna in this category too.

 

[Hugo Boss]

^I fully agree with that - I too think Webber was effectively trying to get the exit right and ditched both the entry and mid-corner speed to do that - my point is what is wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with that, only if you ditch both the entry and mid-corner speed, you're not going fast. If you want to go fast, you should only ditch one part of a corner, unless you're going through a combination of corners or are directly fighting for position.
Since that wasn't the case, I don't blame Grosjean at all. There was no reason for Grosjean to believe Webber would drive slower than normal through that corner (as I assume). Although he's technically responsible since he's the car behind, I don't blame him and classify it as a racing incident.

I still think if you repeatedly pause the video just as they go through the corners, you can see that Webber isn't excessively slow compared to Kobayashi ahead of him. He seems to brake slightly earlier/harder than Kobayashi (perhaps distracted by the two ahead of him or thinking Kobayashi was about to pile into Vettel) but after that all the way to the contact, Webber's distance to KK is about the same.

I didn't think of that before. It would have been fair of him to admit that if that was truly the case, although I can imagine it's not in his advantage to do so. However that does imply he was going slower than normal.

Its worth noting that Perez on the outside line did actually slow in time, but he however was on a slightly slower line.

If you focus only on Perez and imagine Grosjean isn't there, Perez doesn't really look out of shape. Although he can't turn in earlier because of Grosjean being there, he still almost runs into Webber as well.
If Perez on the outside line almost runs into Webber without looking out of shape, Webber surely must have been going slower than normal, no?

I don't know, if it was me in that situation (and I've been there before too in GT5), I'd back off a fair bit more than Romain did. I think he was trying to claim the line off Perez a little too much that he forgot about the cars ahead.
I've seen so many similar incidents online in GT5P and GT5 - where the car ahead is trying to get the best exit whereas the guy behind is too busy trying to out brake other cars or the car ahead.

I fully agree here. Although on top of that I've been in situations like Webber was as well. In all those situations I carried more speed into the corner and sacrificed my exit speed, simply to avoid being run into...

Interesting discussion 👍

 

[homeforsummer]

That crash was not Kimis fault, it was all Alonso.He just got away without an investigation because he was in a Ferrari.

While you're right in saying it wasn't Kimi's fault, the rest of it is incorrect. Alonso got away without an investigation because a) it was a racing incident, and b) it was his own race he messed up, not anyone else's.

Grosejean's suicidal lunge at Spa aside, the FIA are unlikely to penalise someone for taking themselves out of a GP. That it's a Ferrari has nothing to do with it.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see him get bullied in the next few races on track but to be fair he hasn't exactly earned the other driver's respect either. Bit of a catch-22 as I think most of us agree.

As I joked a few pages back, the real catch-22 is that Grosjean has little experience of close-quarters traffic because he rarely makes it past the first corner of a race to gain that experience...

 

[Hun200kmh]

Nigel Roebuck on Grosjean and other "behaviour" problems.

A very interesting read.

 

[Ardius]

There's nothing wrong with that, only if you ditch both the entry and mid-corner speed, you're not going fast. If you want to go fast, you should only ditch one part of a corner, unless you're going through a combination of corners or are directly fighting for position.
Since that wasn't the case, I don't blame Grosjean at all. There was no reason for Grosjean to believe Webber would drive slower than normal through that corner (as I assume). Although he's technically responsible since he's the car behind, I don't blame him and classify it as a racing incident.

I don't think Webber was going for fastest lap though - I think he was going for a better exit of the corner as he completely missed the apex.
The more I re-watch the video, the more I think Webber out-braked himself a little bit after being distracted by the two ahead. He then had a compromised entry into the corner and missed the apex - therefore meaning he needed to back off some speed to get the exit.

Whether or not thats "normal" (I personally think its pretty normal for someone to outbrake themselves and attempt to make the corner still by slowing down), its still Grosjean's responsibility to recognise that and avoid him.
Especially as its "normal" for cars to be going unusual speeds on the first lap as they jostle for position and take compromised lines trying to overtake, defend or just simply avoid each other.

I think it was an avoidable incident and Grosjean even admitted himself that he wasn't paying full attention to what Webber was doing. This is why the stop-go penalty was justified (as a repeated-offender penalty).

I do agree with you though that commentators and drivers alike have been pretty OTT in their response...though it does come with good reason.

I think the key to this is - if you asked if Suzuka was the first first-lap incident Grosjean ever had, does Grosjean deserve a penalty? I would have said no and agreed it was a racing incident.
Its precisely because he has had so many first lap incidents that you start question his judgement in these situations and you start to analyse a lot more than normal.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Its precisely because he has had so many first lap incidents that you start question his judgement in these situations and you start to analyse a lot more than normal.

Says the bloke that opened this thread

 

[MSTER232]

He needs to be more patient, it's like the guy thinks he can race like he can on Gran Turismo.

I think Grosjean has been playing too much F1 2012 online. And now he can't tell the difference between the races on his PS3 and races in real life, which could injure him if he's not careful.

After serving a race ban and being condemned from teams, drivers and commentators up and down the paddock, Grosjean yet again got involved in a first lap collision today.

So I'm interested to know - what do people think should happen to him? Is it a case of him being under huge pressure not to crash that he ends up doing it anyway? Or is it a case of the punishments not being strong enough? Is it fair to heavily penalise him but not Maldonado?

The FIA needs to tell him to stop staying up until 3 in the morning a day before the racing weekend starts playing GT5 and F1 2012 .

 

[avens]

He could rewind anyway.

 

[Ardius]

Says the bloke that opened this thread

Of course!

 

[MSTER232]

He could rewind anyway.

👍👍👍

 

[BlacqueJacques]

I think Grosjean has been playing too much F1 2012 online. And now he can't tell the difference between the races on his PS3 and races in real life, which could injure him if he's not careful.


The FIA needs to tell him to stop staying up until 3 in the morning a day before the racing weekend starts playing GT5 and F1 2012 .

Yes it seems simarlar to the overly aggressive behaviour on F1 2012

I think he needs a sit down with all the other drivers (the F1 Drivers Association is about safety afterall) who remind him that you can't win the race in turn one, but you certainly can lose it Nermind you kill one of them

He should know better his second time round in F1, but I am sure there is intense pressure on him to perform; in a championship with 6 drivers who have won the championship; one being his teammate

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Here's a potential solution that was floated on another forum, and apparently something Derek Warwick (or whoever was the drivers' steward at the time) suggested after the Spa pile-up: a points system for the licence.

I'm not sure how it works elsewhere, but here in Australia, you get twelve points on your licence. Every time you commit an infraction - ie, speeding, drink-driving - you lose points from your licence. When you get to zero points, you lose your licence entirely; for how long depends on the nature of the infractions and your previous track record.

Every driver could start the season with twenty-four points on his licence. Every time they run afoul of the stewards, points are deducted, and to keep things simple, they could correspond with number of grid spots dropped (with some exceptions - I'll explain in a minute). Minor infractions, like speeding in pit lane, would see one point taken off a licence. Blocking in qualifying would lose you three points. Causing an avoidable collision would be worth five, while a stop/go penalty would be a full ten points. Once the driver loses all twenty-four points, they get banned. These points would be automatically added back onto the licence after a certain period of time, perhaps three or five races, depending on the nature of the incident.

There would, of course, have to be a few exceptions. Engine and gearbox penalties would not result in points being taken off a licence despite a grid drop for each, because the driver has not done anything wrong. And while a driver is given a drive-through penalty for an unsafe pit release, the burden of responsibility for that lies with the team. And, in some rare exceptions, the stewards might choose to hand out an unconventional penalty; for example, Michael Schumacher was given a stop/go penalty at Silverstone last year, because it was felt that a drive-through would have little to no effect since the Silverstone pits are short and the entry is actually faster than the circuit itself.

But I think this is definately something the FIA could look at introducing next year.

 

[Liquid]

That's similar to the UK, except you incurr points and once you get to 12 you are banned.

The BTCC has had a points system for a number of years, but it's largely ignored due to the physicality of the racing. I could see it working in F1 though.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's twelve in Australia, too, but I said twenty-four for a superlicence, because a ten-place penalty and a block in qualifying would result in a ban, which is too extreme.

 

[Ardius]

That's similar to the UK, except you incurr points and once you get to 12 you are banned.

The BTCC has had a points system for a number of years, but it's largely ignored due to the physicality of the racing. I could see it working in F1 though.

BTCC is based on the MSA rulebook - as I understand it all MSA racing licences in the UK have the "points" system.
Its just the BTCC until recently hasn't penalized by adding points to licenses. But license points system has always been there.

This year however its changed, Jason Plato for example is just a couple of license points away from having his license suspended thanks to all his contact at the start of the year (namely the Newsham-Brands Hatch and Shedden-Donington incidents).

Personally I think a license points system is heavily flawed because it allows a number of incidents before the appropriate action.
And its still heavily reliant on the stewards decision to weigh up the evidence and give appropriate punishments. May as well be immediate punishments.

Maybe a license points system could be implemented along side the regular punishments - in order to give a clear indication that number of incidents does increase the punishment. Because currently its kind of an un-written rule that the stewards will come down harder if you're a repeat offender.
But you still need fines, time penalties, grid penalties, etc. You also still need the ability to hand out a race ban or even suspend a license immediately if the incident at hand is that serious.

In the BTCC, most penalties seem to be fines and license points:
http://www.touringcartimes.com/article.php?id=8245

 

[MSTER232]

He should know better his second time round in F1, but I am sure there is intense pressure on him to perform; in a championship with 6 drivers who have won the championship; one being his teammate

True, anyone would feel pressure if they were in Grosjean's position right now.

 

[Akmuq]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/13/romain-grosjean-first-lap-crashes/

^There, Spa was 100% his fault, Suzuka was 100% his fault, the majority of the rest weren't Grosjean's fault at all. IIRC, it was his divebomb which got Di Resta in Silverstone though. That's 3 incidents. Compared to how many from Hamilton last season or Maldonado this season?

 

[cgr-10]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/10/13/romain-grosjean-first-lap-crashes/

^There, Spa was 100% his fault, Suzuka was 100% his fault, the majority of the rest weren't Grosjean's fault at all. IIRC, it was his divebomb which got Di Resta in Silverstone though. That's 3 incidents. Compared to how many from Hamilton last season or Maldonado this season?

It's very hard though to apportion 100% blame for an incident (except for Suzuka and Spa obviously); although he may have not been the only person who caused the first lap incidents earlier in the year, he still played a part in them which requires a certain lack of concentration and awareness.