The Homosexuality Discussion Thread

[Liquid]

Today, Ireland is holding a national referendum on permitting same-sex marriage.

Even though my home country now permits same-sex marriage (not via a public referendum, mind), in researching this topic I unfortunately find that I live and work in a country which constitutionally restricts marriage to between a man and a woman only. I had my suspicions; it was only recently that a referendum to ban gay adoption was defeated due to poor turnout. But I didn't know the legalese situation on it.

Vote Yes, Ireland!

Dark Blue - Permitted
Light Blue - Civil partnerships
Cyan - Foreign marriages recognised (Only Malta from the looks of it)
Red - Marriage is constitutionally restricted to man and woman
Grey - Unrecognised

 

[Com Fox]

What's with the striped countries?

Today, Ireland is holding a national referendum on permitting same-sex marriage.

Even though my home country now permits same-sex marriage (not via a public referendum, mind), in researching this topic I unfortunately find that I live and work in a country which constitutionally restricts marriage to between a man and a woman only. I had my suspicions; it was only recently that a referendum to ban gay adoption was defeated due to poor turnout. But I didn't know the legalese situation on it.

Vote Yes, Ireland!

Dark Blue - Permitted
Light Blue - Civil partnerships
Cyan - Foreign marriages recognised (Only Malta from the looks of it)
Red - Marriage is constitutionally restricted to man and woman
Grey - Unrecognised

 

[Daniel]

Civil unions/partnerships are allowed, but not full-on marriage.

 

[Touring Mars]

Today, Ireland is holding a national referendum on permitting same-sex marriage.

One activist for the 'No' vote says:

We have warned in our pamphlet about the major implications on the issue of conscience if there is a yes vote on Friday. If there is a yes vote, will the Muslim printer in Ireland now be obliged to print cartoons of Muhammad? Redefining marriage is sold to us by the media and political establishment as a permissive measure but it will quickly become coercive.

Interesting!

 

[Liquid]

Croatia and Hungary.

Hungary provides registered partnerships (Hungarian: bejegyzett élettársi kapcsolat) to same-sex couples since 1 July 2009. [...] However, same-sex marriage is prohibited by the 2011 Constitution of Hungary.

So they permit civil unions while explicitly stating that marriage is between a man and a woman, whereas Poland, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Ukraine and Moldova explicitly state marriage is between a man and a woman without providing civil unions.

I think.

 

[Daniel]

Does anyone know if the Ireland referendum allows for religious freedom for churches? When New Zealand legalised same-sex marriage, they explicitly stated that churches and church leaders who are not comfortable performing same-sex marriages did not have to.

 

[Com Fox]

Civil unions/partnerships are allowed, but not full-on marriage.

Isn't that what's the Light Blue for?

 

[TenEightyOne]

"We have warned in our pamphlet about the major implications on the issue of conscience if there is a yes vote on Friday. If there is a yes vote, will the Muslim printer in Ireland now be obliged to print cartoons of Muhammad? Redefining marriage is sold to us by the media and political establishment as a permissive measure but it will quickly become coercive."

... Interesting!

The question should be "would it be legal in Irish law for a Muslim printer to print cartoons of Muhammad"? I'd say it already is. A priest wouldn't be compelled to perform a same-sex marriage under this law, but it would be legal for them to do so if they wished.

 

[Daniel]

Isn't that what's the Light Blue for?

Malta recognises same-sex marriage, but doesn't perform them. They also have civil unions.
Croatia and Hungary doesn't recognise same-sex marriage. But they have civil unions.

 

[Liquid]

Malta recognises same-sex marriage, but doesn't perform them. They also have civil unions.
Croatia and Hungary doesn't recognise same-sex marriage. But they have civil unions.

It's a trivial point but Croatia and Hungary explicitly state that marriage is between man and a woman, but have civil unions.

Ireland, Greenland, Germany, Czechia, Austria, Slovenia, Estonia, Switzerland, Isle Of Man, Andorra, Jersey, San Marino and Liechtenstein simply have civil unions but don't perform same-sex marriage.

Although Ireland will hopefully be soon joining the other dark blue countries; all of my Irish friends are hoping for, and predicting, a favourable outcome.

 

[Touring Mars]

The question should be "would it be legal in Irish law for a Muslim printer to print cartoons of Muhammad"? I'd say it already is. A priest wouldn't be compelled to perform a same-sex marriage under this law, but it would be legal for them to do so if they wished.

That wasn't my reading of it - I reckon he's basically saying 'if this becomes law, priests will have to marry same-sex couples against their will, Christians will have to put up gay couples in their hotels, and Muslim printers will have to print cartoons of Muhammad against their will, because the law prevents people from discriminating'...

Not sure what the case is in Ireland - clearly in Northern Ireland this would be the case, as evinced by the recent cake debacle, and I assume the law is the same in Ireland. The big difference is that gay marriage is not yet legal and so its currently a non-issue as to whether or not people have to wed/accommodate same-sex couples - I guess that's the main gripe... that existing anti-discrimination laws coupled with newly legalised same-sex marriage is "going to cause a crisis of conscience in Ireland"... I guess it probably will for a lot of people, but maybe once same-sex marriage has been normalised and those people who are opposed to it see that it actually makes zero difference to their lives, then perceptions might change and all of these terrible 'crisis of conscience' opportunities will melt away.

I wonder how many people who are anti-gay marriage are actually more opposed to the anti-discrimination laws as opposed to gay marriage itself?

 

[Com Fox]

Malta recognises same-sex marriage, but doesn't perform them. They also have civil unions.
Croatia and Hungary doesn't recognise same-sex marriage. But they have civil unions.

Malta is in the Cyan though. Light Blue is in the places of Ireland and Germany. Occording to the key,bLight Blue means Civil Partnerships which you told me what the stripes mean.

 

[Liquid]

?

What's with the striped countries?

Croatia and Hungary.

Hungary provides registered partnerships (Hungarian: bejegyzett élettársi kapcsolat) to same-sex couples since 1 July 2009. [...] However, same-sex marriage is prohibited by the 2011 Constitution of Hungary.

So they permit civil unions while explicitly stating that marriage is between a man and a woman, whereas Poland, Slovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Ukraine and Moldova explicitly state marriage is between a man and a woman without providing civil unions.

I think.

It's a trivial point but Croatia and Hungary [the striped countries] explicitly state that marriage is between man and a woman, but have civil unions.

Ireland, Greenland, Germany, Czechia, Austria, Slovenia, Estonia, Switzerland, Isle Of Man, Andorra, Jersey, San Marino and Liechtenstein simply have civil unions but don't perform same-sex marriage.

Although Ireland will hopefully be soon joining the other dark blue countries; all of my Irish friends are hoping for, and predicting, a favourable outcome.

 

[Rich S]

the social conservative types in the EU countries that supported the civil unions, they played it smart. The more socially conservative here, the harder they fall. They wanted sodomy banned, civil union banned. Now they got their biggest fear: gay marriage. And not just any gay marriage, mandatory gay marriage.

 

[Com Fox]

?

Sorry thought those weren't for me since I wasn't mentioned or quoted or first post after mine

 

[Joel]

I'm a bit surprised it's not already legal in Germany.

 

[Touring Mars]

Maybe Croatia and Hungary are split 50-50 into strips where civil partnerships are either allowed (blue) or not allowed (red). The reason for the stripes is because of an EU directive that means no-one should have to travel too far to find a suitable stripe/region to suit their needs. The red stripes also allow for safe passage to cross the country for anyone opposed to civil partnerships if, for example, they wish to travel from Eastern Europe to Bosnia without being bombarded by public displays of gay affection. During the summer, the direction of the stripes is rotated 90 degrees every week to allow safe transit to other locations.

Or maybe it's what @Liquid said.

I'm a bit surprised it's not already legal in Germany.

Same here...

 

[Liquid]

I'm a bit surprised it's not already legal in Germany.

Agreed. In Germany civil partnerships do get adoption, alimony/palimony, division of property and joint tax file benefits. It's no surprise that the largest party in Germany, the CDU (Christian Democratic Union) and it's very conservative Bavarian cousin the CSU (Chrisitian Social Union), are against same-sex marriage.

All other major political parties are in favour of it.

 

[Joel]

Same here...

I guess I just didn't really think about it, same with it only being legal in France in 2013, or in the UK in the past year. I remember in 2003 (god I was only 8 years old then) when the law was changed in Ontario people talked about it already being made legal in the Netherlands and Belgium. I guess I just kinda filled in the blanks without thinking and assumed it would have been made legal in the rest of western Europe in the following 10 years.

 

[DK]

Today, Ireland is holding a national referendum on permitting same-sex marriage.

Even though my home country now permits same-sex marriage (not via a public referendum, mind), in researching this topic I unfortunately find that I live and work in a country which constitutionally restricts marriage to between a man and a woman only. I had my suspicions; it was only recently that a referendum to ban gay adoption was defeated due to poor turnout. But I didn't know the legalese situation on it.

Vote Yes, Ireland!

I've done my bit already. I'm predicting a 62/38 Yes vote. This is probably the one vote which has got my generation (millennials) off their arses to vote, and even some have returned home to vote!

Does anyone know if the Ireland referendum allows for religious freedom for churches? When New Zealand legalised same-sex marriage, they explicitly stated that churches and church leaders who are not comfortable performing same-sex marriages did not have to.

No, priests/rabbis/ministers/imams etc. won't be forced to perform same-sex marriages if they feel it's against their religion.

 

[mustafur]

I agree, and that's one of the reasons that I think private health provision on a national level is bad thing.

But Hospitals have Doctors in them, making Hospital discrimination not possible when a duty of care exists in the code of ethics.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But Hospitals have Doctors in them, making Hospital discrimination not possible when a duty of care exists in the code of ethics.

So how is it that doctors are able to withdraw from treating certain patients? Do you think it's right or proper that such a situation exists and do you think that doctors should be further free to be able to withdraw from treating patients on the basis of sexuality?

 

[mustafur]

So how is it that doctors are able to withdraw from treating certain patients? Do you think it's right or proper that such a situation exists and do you think that doctors should be further free to be able to withdraw from treating patients on the basis of sexuality?

Well from my knowledge if they Withdraw from care that has to be done due to the nature of injury or illness in a Imminent amount of time they risk being charged for negligence if the patient plans to sue(this is the case in Australia and many 1st world nations).

If it's for basic care then the duty of care does not apply unless it's a question involving risks with treatment and they refuse to answer.

My opinion on the matter is a bit muddled because doctors have access to knowledge of Life and risks that far exceeds the average patient, which in turn can risk liberty therefore the duty of care seems like a suitable middle ground(within reason).

 

[jackargent]

it looks like a Yes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32856232

Now they just need to catch up with Scotland.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/10/scotland-tops-league-for-gay-rights

 

[DK]

It's days like this where I'm proud to be Irish.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think Ireland had the right idea - put the question to the people. If you let the politicians decide, it becomes a political issue. If we held a referendum tomorrow, it's likely that gay marriage would be legalised - but the conservatives are in power and go out of their way to shut the idea down.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I think Ireland had the right idea - put the question to the people. If you let the politicians decide, it becomes a political issue. If we held a referendum tomorrow, it's likely that gay marriage would be legalised - but the conservatives are in power and go out of their way to shut the idea down.

Of the 34 states that have had gay marriage on the ballot all but two states voted to keep it illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-s...n_same-sex_unions_by_constitutional_amendment

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Of the 34 states that have had gay marriage on the ballot all but two states voted to keep it illegal.

I have no idea what that has to do with the subject, since the referendum was in Ireland and I'm not in America.

 

[Liquid]

You were saying that it's a good thing that the decision was held via public referendum, which I agree with. Chrunch is showing that US states have also held their own referenda on same-sex marriage. Although a heavy amount of those were approved only to be deemed 'unconstitutional'. What?!

As good a thing as legalising same-sex marriage is, it's hardly democratic when the people don't even get to vote on it.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

I have no idea what that has to do with the subject, since the referendum was in Ireland and I'm not in America.

I thought you were a school teacher. Maybe I am mistaken.

You said let the people vote. I was showing you that here in the US, most of the people have voted, and most of them have voted against gay marriage. Sorry if that is not what you wanted to hear.