The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrids: Hybrids Owners Get More Tickets?

[Joey D]

It seems the new Mini D is better for the environment then most hybrids.

BMW-owned MINI recently commissioned YouGov PLC to conduct a survey on alternative fuels and technologies in Britain. It turns that few respondents were aware that some diesel-powered cars actually had lower CO2 emissions than the hybrids currently on the market. Of the cars included in the list (Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius, MINI Cooper D, Ford Focus 1.6 Duratorq TDCi and Citroen C4 1.6 HDi), most people thought the Civic Hybrid had the lowest emissions. In fact the MINI D was lowest at 104g/km equal to the Prius and ahead of the Civic's 109g/km.

The MINI D has a diesel engine combined with their regenerative braking system to charge the 12V battery and start/stop capability. The 60mpg (US) MINI provides a viable alternative to the hybrids with great real world fuel economy under both urban and highway driving conditions. If you live somewhere that doesn't have hefty tax brakes for hybrids it may also be a more affordable option.

Here is BMW's offcial press release on the subject if you would like to read it...

Confusion surrounding alternative fuels and related technologies is leading new car buyers to miss a trick. A recent YouGov Plc survey commissioned by MINI found that diesel-powered cars are thought to be way behind Hybrid models for cleanliness. Yet the 104g/km C02 emitted by the sporty MINI Cooper D is a figure that equals, and in many cases beats other cars using alternative technologies - including hybrids.
In a poll designed to gauge public understanding of CO2-related issues in the car purchase process, just three per cent of the 2,018-strong sample believed that a diesel-fuelled vehicle could be considered a low source of carbon emissions. Yet the new MINI Cooper D's 104 g/km is identical to the hybrid-powered Toyota Prius and lower than the 109 g/km achieved by the Honda Civic Hybrid.

Andy Hearn, General Manager for MINI UK, said: "Buyers looking for the most efficient cars could be missing out on the fun of driving a MINI. By developing sustainable diesel technology, MINI engineers have proved that you can have a low emissions car without compromising on driving characteristics and style."

A quarter of the survey's respondents believed the Honda Civic Hybrid was the lowest carbon-emitting vehicle from a list of five models.* Just two per cent plumped for the MINI Cooper D, perhaps misled by the sporty personality indicated by a Cooper badge. If only they knew.

Along with the rest of the MINI Hatch range, the MINI Cooper D now features a number of engineering enhancements.

Brake Energy Regeneration removes the need for a traditional alternator and reduces drag on the engine, thereby saving fuel. The Auto Start-Stop Function cuts out the engine when the car is brought to a halt and re-engages on depressing the clutch, again increasing fuel efficiency. Switch Point Display indicates to the driver the best gear for frugal driving. These technologies, as well as the Variable Turbine Geometry applied to the MINI Cooper D's turbocharger combine to make a torquey, yet economical and low-emitting sports hatch.

Well, those that know, know. The MINI Cooper D topped the poll for desirability, despite an apparent misunderstanding between car fuel sources and their relative carbon emissions.

So what else did MINI discover? The most important factor in buying a new car remains price. Fuel economy and style/design were placed second and third respectively. Great news for MINI. Taking into account MINI's low whole-life cost and its place at the top of the Lex Vehicle Leasing residual value chart, along with the Cooper D offering a combined fuel consumption of 72.4mpg and a unique design, the car again ticks every box.

I need to find out what one of these costs and see what is the better buy, the Prius or the Cooper D. They both have the same carbon out put but the Mini gets better mileage and as long as the price difference between the two cars isn't ridiculous there would be no reason to buy a Prius over a Cooper D. And yes you can compare them because if you truly are out to help the environment in what you drive it shouldn't matter what it is, driving the most efficient car should be you main objective. Yes the Mini is smaller then the Prius, I know that.

 

[Philly]

I had heard that this was supposed to be greener and use less fuel than a Prius. If we could make all of our "green mobiles" like this, I would be very happy. It should be fast enough to get out of it's own way. It will probably be decently fun to drive. It won't be an obstacle so much as a part of traffic. I really hope this car catches on. When my mom mentioned hybrid, this was the first thing that I mentioned back.

Are they coming over here? If so, when?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Good try, but not even close:
1990 Park Avenue

LeSabre

1990 Olds....

It's probably a hybrid!

Ahem. This specific car is tuned a little lean compared to stock, but the LeSabre isn't far out of the ball park. It gets 20 in the city.

Soo... Maybe every gas station in America lies big, (Oops, it would have to be giving EXTRA fuel...) or this thing gets 30 mpg.

 

[Wolfe]

I need to find out what one of these costs and see what is the better buy, the Prius or the Cooper D.

Even if the Cooper D ends up being more expensive in the long run, there are other qualities to a car that can't quite be quantified...like driving enjoyment. You have to admit, it isn't exactly often that you can have fun saving the environment.

I forgot BMW was working on a diesel Cooper.

 

[Joey D]

Agreed fully, you'd have a lot more driving enjoyment in a Cooper then you would in a Prius.

 

[JCE]

Agreed fully, you'd have a lot more driving enjoyment in a Cooper then you would in a Prius.

Is that even a question? I'd rather drive a pink Mini with Hello Kitty on the bonnet than a Toyota Prius.

 

[a6m5]

Is that even a question? I'd rather drive a pink Mini with Hello Kitty on the bonnet than a Toyota Prius.

That's crazy. Alright, I'll take the one with Prius painted on the hood.

 

[Joey D]

Score another (small) one for the diesel power vehicles. Looks like Mercedes finally tweaked one of their Bluetec engines to meet the strict California emission standards.

Mercedes-Benz first in California with diesel

You may remember that despite a promise back in January of 2006 that its E320 BLUETEC would meet emissions standards in all 50 states, Mercedes-Benz announced eight months later that its new diesel sedan wouldn't be sold in California and the contingent of states that have adopted its stricter emissions standard. Mercedes went back and tweaked the BLUETEC design and today marks the first day that the E320 BLUETEC sedan goes on sale in California. It's the first diesel powered model that meets California's strict emissions standards and certainly won't be the last. Mercedes-Benz is offering the car only as a lease vehicle for 2 years/24,000 miles for roughly $600 per month.

Merc chose to lease the car because only about 100 units will be available. This will be expanded next year along with the rest of the diesel lineup when the M, R and GL Bluetec diesels arrive in August. By January next year the E320 Bluetec will be available in all of the other states that have adopted California's stricter emissions standards. These include New York, Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Pennsylvania.

The E-class is expected to go in for a redesign for the 2010 model year and will also be offered with a Bluetec diesel option when it arrives in mid-2009. Click here to view several spy shots of the next E-class including a couple of its interior.

 

[Joey D]

Toyota might not be as green as the claim they are according to one site. Truth About Toyota.com basically shows the company is not all it says it is and deceives the buying public, which only goes to help my theory that the Prius is only about sales and nothing else.

Americans are concerned about high gas prices, the environment and our dangerous dependence on foreign oil. An increase in fuel economy standards—making sure new autos get more miles to the gallon—could help Americans save money at the pump, reduce global warming pollution, and enhance our national security by reducing our dependence on foreign oil. So, it is disturbing to hear Toyota talking out of both sides of its mouth when it comes to increasing fuel economy.

Supported by the sale of its Prius hybrid, Toyota has carefully crafted a “green” image. But what Toyota doesn't talk about is the battle it is waging against the first meaningful increase in U.S. fuel economy in 30 years. The company is also fighting efforts in states across the country, such as California's Pavley clean cars law, that would reduce those states' global warming pollution. It is clear: when it comes to being green, Toyota talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk.

And now on to the good stuff...the facts which can all be seen here: http://www.truthabouttoyota.com/facts.html

What they claim: Toyota's corporate website claims the company will “actively promote countermeasures to global warming, the most serious of the world's environmental issues.”

The truth is: Despite the fact that Toyota's own corporate website warns against the dangers of global warming—calling it “the most serious of the world's environmental issues”—two major auto trade associations of which Toyota is a member are suing to stop California's new law to reduce global warming pollution. Toyota says it recognizes the problem, but it doesn't want to be part of the solution.

At least 13 states are following California's lead in adopting standards that would reduce global warming pollution from new cars. Toyota's trade associations oppose them all.

So basically Toyota is riding the coat tails of the Prius by making people think the rest of their line is green...and we already know the Prius really isn't as green as it says it is when you factor in production.

 

[Azuremen]

I am curious to see how many other manufacturers are fighting those new regulations. The site just says stuff, doesn't validate at all, etc.

Fairly biased looking if you ask me, and I am saying that not as a Toyota fanboy

 

[Joey D]

I think the only reason they are targeting Toyota instead of say Nissan is because Toyota prides itself on being one of the greenest companies out there and they use that to their marketing advantage. Although I would liked to see some more citations on the site as well as what other companies are doing like you said.

 

[Azuremen]

I think the only reason they are targeting Toyota instead of say Nissan is because Toyota prides itself on being one of the greenest companies out there and they use that to their marketing advantage. Although I would liked to see some more citations on the site as well as what other companies are doing like you said.

Well, some of the gas mileage legislation was that absurd "50 mpg" fleet average or something. And everyone knows those really don't fix anything, just one efficient car and the rest are bleh. So imagine its some what out of context, much like many things on sites such as these.

Toyota has a fairly efficient line up. Just not as clean as people like it to be, but Diesel hybrids are going to be the future. I'm pretty Toyota knows that as well, just waiting for the rest of America to figure it out.

 

[Joey D]

Honestly I think you'll see Honda and BMW take the lead with alternative fueled vehicles that actually sell. But I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[Azuremen]

Honestly I think you'll see Honda and BMW take the lead with alternative fueled vehicles that actually sell. But I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Well, Honda was testing all that fancy Hydrogen stuff out. BMW has their diesels, but Toyota has a pretty strong offering of Diesels in Europe, with just about every model they sell having a diesel option(s).

They are a smart company, I'm sure they won't just sleep through this thing. But VW I see taking the lead in Diesel right off the bat in the US for passenger cars.

 

[Joey D]

You make a good point with VW, I do agree that they will probably be the one to really get things moving for diesels in the US. If GM and Ford were smart they would integrate some of their European models and engines into the American market, sell them cheaper then VW and slap a nice warranty on them....they'd sell quite a few of them.

 

[harrytuttle]

Toyota might not be as green as the claim they are according to one site. Truth About Toyota.com basically shows the company is not all it says it is and deceives the buying public, which only goes to help my theory that the Prius is only about sales and nothing else.

All hybrids are about sales. How did you not see that? I mean, they're carrying an extra 100 lbs. of batteries! What part of that is enviromentally friendly? Why anyone in the US bought into that load of hysterical crap is beyond me...oh, wait....

 

[Azuremen]

All hybrids are about sales. How did you not see that? I mean, they're carrying an extra 100 lbs. of batteries! What part of that is enviromentally friendly? Why anyone in the US bought into that load of hysterical crap is beyond me...oh, wait....

Well, charge over night with a 30 mile range hybrid would be good, since no one really drives more than 30 miles typically.

Its helpful in a way, we just need a better battery system, which is the only thing that hasn't advanced much technologically for a long time.

 

[niky]

Just finished a hybrid test-drive!

And, boy, let me tell you... that was one of the most boring tests we've had in a long time.

On the highway, the Toyota Prius was just neck-and-neck with the Ford Focus 2.0 TDCi. Both at about 20.5 km/l. (47 mpg, US)

Back at city speeds, we weren't surprised to see the Focus's economy drop like a stone in traffic, but, surprisingly, despite the start-stop technology, the Prius dropped, too.

We managed to get the Prius down to 15 km/l (35 mpg) in the city, where the Focus did alternately 9 or 11 (21-26 mpg). The disappointing city numbers (for the Prius... the diesel's numbers were kind of expected) seem to be down to the fact that if you sit in traffic, you're using up your battery on airconditioning (and yes, mama... it is hot!).

In light traffic and highway running, if you're not actually maintaining steady state speeds, the battery actually charges up better. So, if you drive like a grandma, your Prius is getting pretty so-so numbers, but drive with a bit of gusto (as long as you don't go over 70 mph), and you can get 23-24 km/l (56 mpg).

The Focus, in the same general conditions, gets about 30-37 mpg. But I expect we can eke 60 mpg out of it on longer highway runs (ours was too short and traffic-choked).

Put to the calculators... it would take the Hybrid about 500,000 - 1,000,000 kilometers (depending on the price of diesel and hybrid tax exemptions) to make up the difference to the diesel car... but just 100,000 - 200,000 kms to a regular gasoline car with a 2 liter engine. Of course, that distance becomes unfeasibly long when you compare the Prius to a small turbodiesel (1.5 - 1.6 liters) or a subcompact... in fact, there are some small cars that the Prius would never overtake in terms of ROI.

Instead, it seems that the Prius makes the most sense for people who are willing to spend money for a bigger, roomier, more expensive car, but don't want the hassle of constant fill-ups.

Unfortunately... it's really really boring to drive... I almost didn't bother to get proper performance numbers for it... *yawn*.

 

[Joey D]

Since this is from Automotive News which requires me to pay money to read it I'm just going to copy what Autoblog Green said on the matter instead of bringing you the full article. I refuse to pay for internet car news.

Anyways going along with my "hybrids don't save anyone any money" theory it seems that now they are actually worth less in the resale market then their pure petrol counterparts. So not only are you not saving money at the pump, you aren't even saving any money when it comes to selling the thing. I really need to figure out a way to factor in the tax credits with all of this and really see if the hybrids are completely useless or not.

Also looking on Autotrader it seems that TDI Jetta's actually hold their resale value better then the petrol counterparts, so score another on for the diesel engined cars.

Study: Hybrids' residuals will trail gasoline versions'
As the number of hybrid vehicles on the market continues to grow, so does the number that will be leased. In order for banks and automaker financing units to determine lease payments they have to estimate what the car will be worth at the end of the lease. A number of analysis firms create listings of estimated residual values for new cars based on what current used models sell for. This year for the first time (subs req'd) the Automotive Lease Guide is estimating three-year residual values on hybrid models.

ALG found that except for the Ford Escape Hybrid all hybrid models that have gasoline equivalents will retain less of their value after three years than the conventional models. For example the Honda Civic hybrid is only worth fifty-eight percent of its original value while a gas engine model is worth sixty percent. The absolute value of the hybrid is still higher due to the higher original price. Since all hybrids have long warranties on the batteries and other components, this doesn't contribute to the lower residuals. Instead ALG attributes this to greater price sensitivity among used car buyers who for now at least tend to be more interested in purchase price than fuel economy. That may well change in the future but for now you may want just buy and keep the hybrid for a while instead of leasing.

 

[Thirdeye]

I agree that diesels are a better solution but our government isn't allowing it to its full potential. Notice that in Japan, Australia and European countries, there are plenty of diesels that get better gas mileage than unleaded gasoline cars. It's a shame really, because diesel cars can be extremely reliable and clean too.

Rotary Junkie - The older Altima used a 2.4L 150hp engine with 155 ft.lbs. of torque. When I had mine, I would push about 2,000-2,700 at highway speeds. With my 1.8L Integra now, I'm at 2,900-3,500 at highway speeds. The newer Altimas have wider ratios (if i remember correctly, don't quote me on that) and also a slightly larger 4-cylinder (2.5L) that should be even lower in terms of RPMs. Being an automatic or manual makes a difference too.

 

[ceiling_fan]

Okay, I'm going to replace the numbers in the first post with numbers from my dad's Prius with numbers on gas prices from here. Please tell me if I have made mistakes, doing comparisons like this isn't really my thing. Remember, these are real-world numbers from an actual situation.


Average price per gallon in San Franscico is $3.51
Average price for diesel in San Francisco is $3.48 - (Irrelevant here.)

My dad drives approximately 22000 miles a year. His Prius was used and was $18000, $2795 more than a new Corolla.

3.51 per gallon x Prius' 12 gallon gas tank equals $42.12 to fill an empty tank.
3.51 per gallon x Corolla's 13 gallon gas tank equals $45.63 to fill from an empty tank.

A Prius' full tank will get you 660 miles if you average city/highway MPG.
a Corolla's full tank will get you 402 miles if you average city/highway MPG.

22000 miles driven a year ÷ 660 miles on a full tank, is 33.3 gas station visits
22000 miles driven a year ÷ 402 miles on a full tank, is 54.7 gas station visits

$42.12 per gas station visit x 33.3 gas station visits = $1402.60
$45.63 per gas station visit x 54.7 gas station visits = $2495.96

Which is a difference of $1093.36

$2795 (cost difference between the two) ÷ $1093.36 = 2.56 years to make it up.

Another thing in my area that is a huge factor couldn't really fit into this system. Cars that get over 40 MPG (I think) are able to ride in the carpool lane during rush hour traffic. This saves my dad 30 minutes easily commuting each way from work. This is obviously a huge incentive.

Lastly, we all know the Prius is unbelievably boring to drive. But my dad (and most people I think) aren't "car people," and things like this aren't a factor to them.

I hope this analysis made sense, please let me know of any mistakes I may have made.

 

[Joey D]

I was just showing numbers from the average person's perspective. I know there are people out there that drive quite a bit, like your dad who drives about twice what a normal person does. But yes hybrids can sort of make sense in certain conditions. One thing I would be curious to figure out is how well the Mini Cooper D stacks up against the Prius.

 

[YSSMAN]

I hope this analysis made sense, please let me know of any mistakes I may have made.

I think your analysis is for the most part correct, but there are several issue areas:

1) We do not have a Corolla Diesel in the US to do a better comparison, the VW Jetta TDI (reportedly gets 40 MPG city, 60 MPG highway) would be a good comparison when the '08 models roll

2) Driving 22K miles a year certainly is a special circumstances, 10K over what the 'average' American drives each year

3) Driving routes also make a large difference, as city driving helps the Prius far more than highway cruising (which is what the diesel cars are best at).

 

[ceiling_fan]

1. I see what you're saying about diesel. It isn't very relevant to my circumstance. 👍
2. I also understand this point, but I was using actual numbers for miles, not averages.
3. Yes, but you can't really average the ratio of City/Highway driving because it changes from day to day. For what it's worth my dad spends more time on the highway above 35 mph.

 

[Philly]

His Prius was used and was $18000, $2795 more than a new Corolla.

 

[FoolKiller]

Ding, ding, ding!!!!

We have a winner!

The comparison is for comparable cars, not discounted used vs. full price new.


And in all honesty I believe a Yaris should be compared to a Prius as it is most like driving/riding in a Prius from personal experience (brother has a Prius, wife has a Yaris - I have a Rabbit. I win).

 

[ceiling_fan]

Remember, these are real-world numbers from an actual situation.

.

 

[FoolKiller]

Real-world numbers are good and all, when they are relevant to each other. Comparing a new and used car is not relevant when it comes to price comparisons like this.

Was your dad looking at long-term price differences between a used Prius and a new Corolla? Then and only then is it relevant, and then and only then for himself. It is not a proper comparison of equivalent vehicles.

 

[ceiling_fan]

I have a Rabbit. I win).

I agree.


Using the MSRP for an '08 Prius, the calculation indicated 6.38 years to make up from gas savings. In general, this is more accurate, they're just not the numbers in this particular situation.

 

[FoolKiller]

I agree.

👍

Using the MSRP for an '08 Prius, the calculation indicated 6.38 years to make up from gas savings. In general, this is more accurate, they're just not the numbers in this particular situation.

Yeah, as gas prices go up and the technology cheaper the difference will get closer and closer. However, here in Kentucky I can still get gas at $2.79 at the Circle K (Strange things are afoot at the Circle K) just up the road from work, so the comparison for me is still equal to the OP.