The PP system & Power Limiter

[Pcaola]

A few questions about the PP system and picking cars for Seasonal Events.

Is the PP system almost 100% balanced? I've been doing Seasonals cause the payout is huge compared to A Spec. Can I run pretty much my favorites? Or is it better to find a lighter/smaller car with the best HP/weight ratio? Or is the HP to wight ratios already taken into account for PP rating?
I know tuning trans and suspension helps without raising the PP.

The power limiter. I've done pretty well dropping the limiter to get the car into race guidelines. Sometimes I only need to get down 5 or 10 points. The cars I've dropped close to 50% power seem to not keep up as well though.

Am I over thinking ? Over researching to find "best cars"? Or are the races balanced very well to prove driver > car ?

Paul

 

[Dragonschild81]

I was wondering this also, I did do some of the seasonal races already using the Supra RZ and just using the power limiter to lower the PP. I did have to lower it almost 50% for one of the seasonals and it seemed to do just fine and it was pretty much stock with I think the suspension and Trans changed only. I do think that drive skill has a good amount to do with some of these races and others not so much. Any input from some of the exceptionally skilled drivers on here would be most welcome.

 

[MadMike32]

I can't explain much about it, because I'm just as confused. But I can tell you one thing. The PP system is really jacked up. Especially at, say, 500pp, where a tuned Elise will dominate anything and everything.

 

[jgancherjr]

I would say you are over thinking it, the PP limit (to sum it up quickly) is essentially based around lap times. So to analyze this. If you are running somewhere with more straights than turns I would go for a heavy high power car, EX: Fugi, Top gear, High Speed ring where you have more straight-aways than corners and you can "out pull" them.. But for a complex course you may want to use something more nimble with less power and weight. Like on Suzuka or Madrid. Places like these the big high powered cars might pull away from the line but they will struggle while lumbering around each corner..

Here is an excellent example of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxflDjfBdoI

 

[MrWednesday]

Is the PP system almost 100% balanced?

It's OK but certainly not 100% balanced. Some cars are known to over- or under-perform their PP level. Even to the extent that PP are balanced, cars at a given level have different strengths, so the best car may vary depending on the characteristics of the track (and your personal driving style may suit one or another car better, though tuning will smooth this out somewhat).

Can I run pretty much my favorites?

As long as your favorite isn't one of the dogs, yes. You may find that you have to be selective about what field you race against (which can also be true with the normal A-spec races).

Or is the HP to wight ratios already taken into account for PP rating?

It is, both weight and HP across a range of RPM (not just max HP) affect the PP rating.

The power limiter. I've done pretty well dropping the limiter to get the car into race guidelines. Sometimes I only need to get down 5 or 10 points. The cars I've dropped close to 50% power seem to not keep up as well though.

As above, HP across the full range of RPM affects the PP rating, but when you race, you'll spend almost all of your time at higher RPMs assuming the car is geared reasonably. When the engine limiter is at 50%, you're paying PP for power that you can't use because it's at low RPMs.

Am I over thinking ? Over researching to find "best cars"? Or are the races balanced very well to prove driver > car ?

Not really, not really, and more or less.

 

[Johnnypenso]

A few questions about the PP system and picking cars for Seasonal Events.

Is the PP system almost 100% balanced? I've been doing Seasonals cause the payout is huge compared to A Spec. Can I run pretty much my favorites? Or is it better to find a lighter/smaller car with the best HP/weight ratio? Or is the HP to wight ratios already taken into account for PP rating?
I know tuning trans and suspension helps without raising the PP.

The power limiter. I've done pretty well dropping the limiter to get the car into race guidelines. Sometimes I only need to get down 5 or 10 points. The cars I've dropped close to 50% power seem to not keep up as well though.

Am I over thinking ? Over researching to find "best cars"? Or are the races balanced very well to prove driver > car ?

Paul

No the PP system is not well balanced. Even properly tuned cars can have a difference of several seconds at the same PP. Some cars just punch way above their PP while others are drastically short. Generally, cars that are well know in real life for good handling, handle well in the game and are the best PP performers. NSX Type R, Lotus Elise, Lotus Evora etc. The PP system also tends to overvalue torque and broad powerbands, so cars with peaky HP near the redline and lower torque, tend to get more power for the same PP level.

The more power limiter you use the less horsepower you have vs. tuning a car to a specific power level. What I mean is, if you can tune a given car to 500 PP by adding certain parts and using very little power limiter (95-99%), you'll get more hp out of that car than one in which you tune that same car to say 540 PP and then detune using the power limiter back down to 500PP.

 

[MSTER232]

A few questions about the PP system and picking cars for Seasonal Events.

Is the PP system almost 100% balanced? I've been doing Seasonals cause the payout is huge compared to A Spec. Can I run pretty much my favorites? Or is it better to find a lighter/smaller car with the best HP/weight ratio? Or is the HP to wight ratios already taken into account for PP rating?
I know tuning trans and suspension helps without raising the PP.

The power limiter. I've done pretty well dropping the limiter to get the car into race guidelines. Sometimes I only need to get down 5 or 10 points. The cars I've dropped close to 50% power seem to not keep up as well though.

Am I over thinking ? Over researching to find "best cars"? Or are the races balanced very well to prove driver > car ?

Paul

First of all, welcome to ! Enjoy your stay .

No, the PP system is far from balanced. If you're going to be matching up cars using the PP system, then use it as a very rough guide. Changing one of the following things will cause the PP level of a car to rise/drop:

• Increasing/decreasing bhp
• Decreasing/increasing weight
• Increasing/decreasing front or rear downforce

And this is where things get messed up. The PP system doesn't counter for how well a car will handle or it's actual top speed. That's why in shuffle lobbies if you are winning lots of races the game will give you crappier cars until you eventually get a muscle car that will not do more than 110 mph while everyone else has a Nissan GT-R/Mitsubishi Evo/Subaru Impreza etc even though they're 4+- pp away from each other.

Another example of the pp system failing is that my fully tuned Datsun Midget II has 600pp+. Must be extremely fast, right? WRONG. A touring car from the same pp range would cream its 🤬 in a 3 lap race being given a 1 lap headstart.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Like Johnny and MSTER said, the PP system can be pretty unbalanced.

A car that has a lot of torque, especially the lower down the rev range it is, gets punished by the PP system, as do cars that are either very light weight or very heavy.

Some tuning parts are more efficient with the PP system than others - i.e Installing Engine stage 2 and a racing air filter will add more PP than if you added a semi-racing exhaust, catalytic converter and ECU chip even if all the parts add up to the same amount of horsepower, that's due to the torque each part increases the engine by.

An oil change/engine restoration also hits the PP system too, and installing a rear wing is unnecessary on all but the wildest of cars in my opinion.


In general:
- Try and keep a car around the 900-1150KG area. I find this range of weight seems to get the best power to weight ratio out of the PP system. Also use some ballast if you can to set a car up to as near as 50/50 weight distribution as possible (though I personally prefer 47/53 in most cars.)

- Use as few tuning parts as possible, and use as little power limiter as possible.

- Run the engine as dirty and used as you can.

- Swap around your installed tuning parts to get as much horsepower as possible and as little torque as possible in your target PP range.

- Don't install rear wings on road cars unless you feel you absolutely have to, you would be better off tuning the LSD and suspension to stabalize the car and use the extra power/reduced weight the PP system gives you for not using the downforce of the rear wing.

 

[Pcaola]

""As long as your favorite isn't one of the dogs, yes. ""

Too funny ! Like my Mitsubishi Airtrek ?? I love the look of this car/wagon/sleeper but it just doesn't turn! It feel like I'm towing the invisible family camper behind me.

Anyways, thanks guys for SO MUCH info. A few different options and all great and worth trying. Now I know why that when I limited a car to 50% was so bad. I killed the prime RPM range, but the ones I fudged 5% weren't bad at all.

I am learning little bits along the way and love it. I have had a rough time getting the hang of those Lotus'. The mid engine drift was throwing me off so I would up grabbing a TVR Tamora for my brittish races.

When I get a car that I want to try, it's a little hard to find a race that's competitive. Especially a spec. It seems there are so many cars level 1-9. But in A spec so many races are "specific" so I'm either way ahead, or under powered. Is there any (ballpark) way to know what level your car is after mods? Or is there a way to see what you are racing against in A spec or Seasonals ? Like what's the HP/TQ/PP of the other cars in the race?

Sorry for strange / newb questions. I just grabbed the game a few weeks ago but am locking it. I'll be on board with GT6 from the start :-)

These forums have been a plethora of information guys. Tunes, advice, learning the UCD and the great guys who have sent me some cars I kinda needed or wanted but couldn't afford just to be nice. Thanks everyone !

Paul

 

[Johnnypenso]

You'll find the forum very helpful for new guys with an open mind looking for information. Once in a while you'll get told to use the search function or quoted threads that already exist on a particular subject, but all in all it's about as helpful a forum as you'll find anywhere on the net, in my experience anyway. Good luck:tup:👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

You'll find the forum very helpful for new guys with an open mind looking for information. Once in a while you'll get told to use the search function or quoted threads that already exist on a particular subject, but all in all it's about as helpful a forum as you'll find anywhere on the net, in my experience anyway. Good luck:tup:👍

For Tuning I'd suggest this: [post=4641242]Motor City Hami's LSD Tuning Guide[/post]
All of Hami's tuning info is fairly easy to read and understand and he nails it pretty good.

This will help you wade through the Open Lobby system if you are brave enough to go online:
[post=7826456]Johnny's Foolproof Guide to Avoid the Worst of Open Lobbies[/post]

And if you're looking for tunes for a particular car, you'll find it here. Go to the link at the bottom of the first post:

[post=5167542]Every Tune That Exists on GTPlanet is in this Thread[/post]

 

[Pcaola]

Very clean forum guys. And like I said, so much info and has been such a help! I guess starting late it's a little harder to find some "general info". The search tool is my friend. It's surely why I have 3-4 threads and not 134. 👍

Keep driving !

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Or is there a way to see what you are racing against in A spec or Seasonals ? Like what's the HP/TQ/PP of the other cars in the race?

There is indeed.


When you enter any race selection screen, you have the option to view the "Entry requirements", "Typical Opponents", "Garage" and if one of the Seasonal Events - "Prizes". These are marked by the white icons below or beside the main picture, simply click on them to see all of the race information.

The one in the middle is "Typical opponents", if you select that, a pop up window will display the range of cars the AI will be using, including their power, weight and Performance Point rating.

For an extra tidbit of info incase you were unaware of it, when you are entering a restricted race such as Front Wheel Drive cars only, or an Italian Car only event, click on the "Entry Requirements" icon, not only will it display any power, weight, PP and tyre regulations, it will also display which cars you are allowed to enter the event with. At the bottom of the pop up window it also says "Garage" over here as well, click on it within this pop up window and your garage will automaitcally load up just the cars that you can enter the event with, rather than loading your entire garage where you would have to rake through a monsterous list to find a possibly eligible car. That garage button does all the filtering for you.

 

[Pcaola]

Thanks LW. Some of it I knew,some I didn't. And by the way. I LOVE Japanese Classics! Nissan Silvia 240RS '83

 

[MrWednesday]

If you go to the Seasonal Events forum, you'll find threads on every seasonal. If there's a particular rabbit (or group of rabbits), it will usually be discussed there. You can also see for yourself, if you do a race and the leader runs away and hides, you can see at the end of the race what they were running. Unfortunately, the only way to keep particular cars out of the field is to leave and return repeatedly until you get the field you want.

As an example, in the 430 PP FF challenge seasonal, you want to avoid the Civic at the front of the field, the Integra DC2 or DC5 (particularly the latter) and the Focus.


I'm going to differ from Lewis on the power limiter. I think on most cars, you'll get better enough performance from ~90 to 95% (vs. 100%) that it's worth doing. That will generally keep the useful power in the right RPM range.

Regarding using the race limits to filter your garage... the only problem with that is that it will cut out cars that have more than the PP limit right now but that you could easily get down to the right PP, by changing weight/power limit/tuning parts. I'll usually look in the full garage so that I can pick out cars that start out 5 to 10 PP high.

 

[Woodski_427]

My biggest bugbear with the PP is the disproportionate weighting a lightweight has - see Midget example above. As a general rule of thumb more power>less weight for beating the A-spec races. But for pure fun I love light/max tuned Kei cars.

Another thing to look out for (hinted at but not specifically mentioned I think - apologies if I missed it), is where the power and torque are distributed in the rev range.

Plenty of cars have a great mid range torque/HP peak, around 5k say, (or you can tune this in) but the line drops off towards the red line, maybe 7K. Bare in mind, when racing you are usually red lining (or close) before gear change, especially if using auto gears, so you might not be hitting the peak torque/power. This means your car could be slower than a similar PP car with power curve that peaks towards the top of the rev range. This is especially true on speed tracks, such as Sarthe or Nordschleife where there is a lot of flat out driving and you want to hit peak HP in top gear

That is not to say should avoid such cars as you will often get great acceleration in the zone. You can compensate with wider gearing and/or short-shifting if your are a manual driver.

This is also where the power limiter can be used to advantage, as it chops the peak but creates a flat line rather than moving the curve. This means you can over power, use the limiter and get a max power line along a bigger rev range. This is a bit of a dirty way to tune but might give you an edge to catch the rabbit.

 

[MrWednesday]

This is also where the power limiter can be used to advantage, as it chops the peak but creates a flat line rather than moving the curve. This means you can over power, use the limiter and get a max power line along a bigger rev range. This is a bit of a dirty way to tune but might give you an edge to catch the rabbit.

This is basically where I'm going when I suggest this:

I'm going to differ from Lewis on the power limiter. I think on most cars, you'll get better enough performance from ~90 to 95% (vs. 100%) that it's worth doing. That will generally keep the useful power in the right RPM range.

As a matter of course, if I'm tuning for a given PP number, I'll be aiming to put the power limiter somewhere in the 90 to 95% range.

 

[Woodski_427]

^ indeed, and I should have acknowledged as your post was why I mentioned the limiter, MrWednesday. 👍

 

[Geopan973]

First of all, great and useful thread, bravo.

I was racing an on line event, a few days earlier, and the same question came up, by me,to the more experienced guys in the particular event:

Bigger turbo with more restriction on the power limiter or vice-versa?

I was under the impression by reading threads in the forum that the second option is the best: so I was running my Denso Sard Lexus with only stage 3 Engine and the horsepower limit was spot on at 572bhp, and never bothered to look at the PP.

By suggestion of a friend, I installed a stage 3 Turbo and decreased the power output on the limiter. Again I did not observe what happened to the PP's.

Result: we were racing in La Sarthe and the second configuration offered approximately a 3 second advantage over the first. I had completed a 10 lap practice session with the "low" configuration and achieved not fast but consistent 3:52+ laps and in the racing session (with no drafting involved, because I was second to last ) I saw relatively easy 3:49+.

Ideas?

 

[Johnnypenso]

First of all, great and useful thread, bravo.

I was racing an on line event, a few days earlier, and the same question came up, by me,to the more experienced guys in the particular event:

Bigger turbo with more restriction on the power limiter or vice-versa?

I was under the impression by reading threads in the forum that the second option is the best: so I was running my Denso Sard Lexus with only stage 3 Engine and the horsepower limit was spot on at 572bhp, and never bothered to look at the PP.

By suggestion of a friend, I installed a stage 3 Turbo and decreased the power output on the limiter. Again I did not observe what happened to the PP's.

Result: we were racing in La Sarthe and the second configuration offered approximately a 3 second advantage over the first. I had completed a 10 lap practice session with the "low" configuration and achieved not fast but consistent 3:52+ laps and in the racing session (with no drafting involved, because I was second to last ) I saw relatively easy 3:49+.

Ideas?

Using the power limiter under a PP restriction and using it under HP/Weight restrictions are two different things. PP is a calculation of the area under the torque and HP curves and because using a lot of engine limiter flattens out those curves, you get less HP at a given PP the more limiter you use. Take an RX8 for example and fully tune it, then reduce the PP to 450 using the limiter. Take another RX8 and tune it to 450 PP using as little limiter as possible. The first one will have dramatically less power because the power curves are so flat.

Under HP/Weight limits the opposite is true. By throwing on Engine Stage 3 and High Speed Turbo and all the parts, then reducing the power to a given HP with the engine limiter, you gain the advantage of all the added torque of all the parts added and you flatten out the HP curve with perfect peak power well beyond the normal shifting rpm range. It's a win/win all around.

 

[Pcaola]

It's making as much sense as I can absorb right now. I've read some tuning tutorials but haven't gotten too much into engine/power/torque. Just trying to find and tune a good car for any particular seasonal. The tips have been great! I'll have to start viewing the graph chart to see where the peak torque is? And not be afraid to tune it down if I don't turn it too close or below the highest range. Been struggling a little on on the compact car challenge.

Paul