The Puzzling Thread

  • Thread starter tarnheld
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They might both be only five meters or so from where the bus picks them up, depending on the angle that they left the road at, and where the meet point is - but there's not the information to determine that. I'm finding the wording a bit confusing, but it might just be me. Not sure.
 
@LeMansAid - good question:

I was trying to imply that the sisters walked perpendicular from the road to get to the cars, so the sisters are exactly 40 meters and 41 meters from the road when they notice the bus
 
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@LeMansAid - good question:

I was trying to imply that the sisters walked perpendicular from the road to get to the cars, so the sisters are exactly 40 meters and 41 meters from the road when they notice the bus
Ok, and now I've realised that it must be a floating meet point (not a designated stop).

Considering vague maths and the human nature of puzzle creation, I'm guessing that Camile can make it, but Melissa can't. That they straddle the tipping point of how much ground can be made up with the ideal angle cut.

Edit - Yeah, by the time the bus travels an extra 17 meters (87 in total), it's within Camile's range.
 
Surely the shortest path for both has to be a straight line, else a straight line connecting the endpoints would lead to a shorter path. But the shortest path back to the road is too long, if they arrived at the road after making 40/41 meters the bus would have passed as it would have traveled 80/82meters. So maybe it works if they head towards the road at an angle with the shortest path like this:

Code:
             B-
             |
             |
             |b
             |
|     l      |
P............S-
   .alpha    |
      .      |
      L  .   |x
            .|
             X-
The Bus is at B when Camille/Melissa is at P, b is 70meter, l is 40 resp. 41meter, and they walk at an angle alpha they need to travel the greater distance L>l, but the bus needs to travel x meters more and there is hope that they can make the bus travel just as much as to arrive at X at the nick of time.

Now a little meditation is neccessary to get to the right inequation of the problem (it took me quite a bit of meditation as i tried to transform the problem by assuming the sisters are as fast as the bus but have to travel twice as long -- somehow it didn't work out but i spare you the messy details ... the fun of puzzling ;)): In order to make it before the bus, the sisters have to travel a distance of more than 2*L while the bus travels a distance of b+x:

2*L > b+x

Now get the variables on one side:

(b+x)/L > 2

So let's work out the details, looking up the sin/cos/tan formulas for a right triangle like that one made by points P,S,X:

L = l / cos alpha
x = l * tan alpha = l * sin alpha / cos alpha

and let's put that into our inequation and simplify:

b*cos alpha/l + x*cos alpha/l > 2
b/l * cos alpha + sin alpha > 2

Looks like a close call as the cos and sin functions are smaller than one most of the time and not both equal to one at the same angle. Plotting the left hand side over the angle alpha had me guessing already that Camille might make it but Melissa might have a hard time. ;)
So it looks like we need to maximize the left hand side to see if we can get past 2. If you want to maximize a function, the differential has to be zero, so let's differentiate:

f(x) = C*cos(x) + sin(x) : cos'(x) = - sin(x), sin'(x) = cos(x)
f'(x) = cos(x) - C*sin(x)
f'(x) = 0
cos(x) - C*sin(x) = 0
cos(x) = C*sin(X)
cos(x)/sin(x) = C
1/tan(x) = C
tan(x) = 1/C
x = atan(1/C)

So we have worked out the best angle for alpha = atan(l/b). Now all that's left to be done is plug in 40 resp 41 for l and 70 for b and work out if the right hand side of our inequation is more that 2. And this verifies that Camille arrives just in the nick of time but Melissa fails to make it. The bus travels about 93 meters before stopping for Camille, i guess she can stop the bus to let Melissa get in too. :)

It looks like the best angle makes the triangle B,P,X a right triangle and it seems that would be a good way to head for the bus in general (regardless of velocities), but i haven't found a reason why that should be that way. :odd: Maybe there is a simpler approach hidden somewhere. 💡
 
@LeMansAid and @tarnheld - Nice work guys!👍

You are both correct, that one of the sisters can catch the bus while the other one can't.👍
However, according to my calculations, both of your solutions have come up short and both sisters have missed the bus!:( According to my maths (which I hope are correct):nervous:, there is a single point where one of the sisters can just exactly reach the bus.
 
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@LeMansAid and @tarnheld - Nice work guys!👍

You are both correct, that one of the sisters can catch the bus while the other one can't.👍
However, according to my calculations, both of your solutions have come up short and both sisters have missed the bus!:( According to my maths (which I hope are correct):nervous:, there is a single point where one of the sisters can just exactly reach the bus.
Hmm, the neatest looking solution I get is having the bus travel 100 meters in total, and Camile running an exact 50 meters - but I also come up with a 13 meter range (ie. if she were to have the bus travel a total distance of anywhere between 87 and 100 meters, she would make it).
 
Yes! @LeMansAid
Yes, my calculations show that Camile will catch the bus after running exactly 50 meters, and the bus will have traveled exactly 100 meters.:cheers:
At the 87 meter mark that you mention, I'm calculating that Camile will end up a few centimeters short of catching the bus.:(

Diagram of Cars and Buses:
Code:
                        M
                      + .
           /      +     .
       50     +        .     |
     /      +          .    30
         +              .      |
      +                 .
    +                   .
  C------------------- S
        -40-            .
                        .
                         .
                         .       |
                         .     70
                         .       |
                         .
                         .
                         .
                         .
                         B
From the diagram above:
B = is where the bus starts
S = is where the two sisters leave the road
C = is where Camile stands when viewing the Camaro
M = is where the Camile catches the bus

Line C to M is "c"
Line S to M is "b"
Line C to S is "a"
Line B to M is total distance bus travels

So triangle is:
1600 + 900 = 2500

SQROOT of 2500 = 50
So line c = 50
2 * 50 = 100
So line B to M is 100
 
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I think we all are correct in some ways, somehow. :) You can formulate the question as a quadratic (in)equation, using the PSX triangle as in my previous answer and as it is a right triangle one has

L^2 = l^2+x^2

and together with b+x >= 2*L and as all quantities are greater than zero we can square both sides to get

b^2+2*b*x+x^2 >= 4*(l^2+x^2)

rearranging this we get the quadratic (in)equation for x:

-3*x^2 + 2*b*x + b^2 - 4*l^2 >= 0

With the discriminant D = 4*b^2 - 4*(-3)*(b^2 - 4*l^2) we can check and eliminate l=41 as the discriminant is less than zero and so there are no solutions, but for l=40 we get a value greater than zero and so there must be two solutions for

-3*x^2 + 2*b*x + b^2 - 4*l^2 = 0

which get the values for x where Camille arrives at the bus just in time. I used Wolfram Alpha to find them after i failed to plug in the values and calculate by hand two times in a row (yes, i'm that bad at calculating :ouch:)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=solve+-3x^2+2*70*x+70*70-4*40*40

This gets x = 50/3 = 16.666... and x=30 which when adding the bus travel distance b=70 gets the two values of aprox. 87 meter and exactly 100meters where Camille arrives at the road at the same time as the bus. If you check the distances traveled by Camille for both x you'll see they are both the same as the bus:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sqrt(40^2+(50/3)^2)*2&t=ffab&ia=answer
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sqrt(40^2+70^2)*2&t=ffab&ia=answer


If you check the values of x in between those two you'll find that Camille will make it before the bus and that's what i tried to get at, i maximized the value of the right hand side of the inequation to get the value where Camille takes the least amount to time, and that's for a total bus traveling distance of 70 + 70/3: approx. 93 meter. Here you have the result in Wolfram Alpha:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=maximize+-3x^2+2*70*x+70*70-4*40*40

And here is the distance traveled by Camille in that case:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sqrt(40^2+(70/3)^2)*2&t=ffab&ia=answer

Thanks @GTsail, it's fun to puzzle as much as finding new puzzles for you to ponder. :)👍 Here are two more:

Sudokus

The common sudoku solver is delighted when one puzzle is finally solved and all numbers are entered and the sudoku conditions are met. But in fact not just one is solved: imagine rotating the sudoku grid by 90 degree and you have another assignment of numbers for all grid cells, that makes two sudokus. Are there more ways to rearrange a sudoku? When you solve one sudoku instance, just how many sudokus have you solved actually?

The Wage of the King

In a small county not far away the 65 citizens revolted and disempowered the king, now each citizen including the king gets an hourly wage of 1 dollar. The king can no longer vote himself, but he retained the power to suggest wage changes. The wage of each citizen must be a whole number of dollars, and the sum of all wages must be the number of citizens.
The suggestions are voted on and carried if there are more "yes" votes than "no" votes. Each citizen can be counted on to vote "yes" if his wage increases, "no" if it decreases and not to bother voting if it doesn't change at all.

The king is of course selfish and clever. What is the maximum salary he can get for himself and how long does it take to get it?
 
Yes! @LeMansAid
Yes, my calculations show that Camile will catch the bus after running exactly 50 meters, and the bus will have traveled exactly 100 meters.:cheers:
At the 87 meter mark that you mention, I'm calculating that Camile will end up a few centimeters short of catching the bus.:(

Diagram of Cars and Buses:
Code:
                        M
                      + .
           /      +     .
       50     +        .     |
     /      +          .    30
         +              .      |
      +                 .
    +                   .
  C------------------- S
        -40-            .
                        .
                         .
                         .       |
                         .     70
                         .       |
                         .
                         .
                         .
                         .
                         B
From the diagram above:
B = is where the bus starts
S = is where the two sisters leave the road
C = is where Camile stands when viewing the Camaro
M = is where the Camile catches the bus

Line C to M is "c"
Line S to M is "b"
Line C to S is "a"
Line B to M is total distance bus travels

So triangle is:
1600 + 900 = 2500

SQROOT of 2500 = 50
So line c = 50
2 * 50 = 100
So line B to M is 100
I'm still getting 87-100 being do-able, with the sweet spot being around half way between those. Running back to the road at a 30 degree angle, I'm shown that Camile can get there with around 0.7m to spare.
 
@LeMansAid - You are absolutely correct!!!👍

I've gone back and re-calculated my maths, and found that you are correct: that Camile is able to catch the bus at 87 meters.:):
Earlier, I hadn't tested enough of the possibilities, so I was too quick in thinking that some of the other distances weren't possible.:dunce:

After testing the numbers in more detail, I have found that Camile is able to first catch the bus at exactly 86 2/3 meters. Camile's bus catching window closes at any distance beyond the 100 meter mark.
 
@LeMansAid - You are absolutely correct!!!👍

I've gone back and re-calculated my maths, and found that you are correct: that Camile is able to catch the bus at 87 meters.:):
Earlier, I hadn't tested enough of the possibilities, so I was too quick in thinking that some of the other distances weren't possible.:dunce:

After testing the numbers in more detail, I have found that Camile is able to first catch the bus at exactly 86 2/3 meters. Camile's bus catching window closes at any distance beyond the 100 meter mark.
Phew, that's a relief. I border on being uneducated, at least in a formal sense. Not knowing the names of things, and what the proven processes are, I participate nervously.

It's good fun though, and thanks to @tarnheld from me as well, for creating the thread. I might be a bit like @S_Bridge in that I'll possibly only be able to give enough time to attempt solutions that present an answer with a minimum of time and "leg work" required on my part. Either that or I'm just setting up a self-protection buffer to mask that I'll be slaving over each puzzle for hours, while rarely coming up with the solution.

I'm probably stating the obvious answer, and missing the trick, but are we talking 6 here? The original, plus three 90 degree rotations, plus 2 mirror images (left/right, up/down)?
 
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Given a Sudoku solution, there are four rotations to produce four puzzles. Each rotation has four reflections (horizontal axis, vertical axis, and the two diagonals) so there are sixteen different puzzles.
 
Phew, that's a relief. I border on being uneducated, at least in a formal sense. Not knowing the names of things, and what the proven processes are, I participate nervously.

It's good fun though, and thanks to @tarnheld from me as well, for creating the thread. I might be a bit like @S_Bridge in that I'll possibly only be able to give enough time to attempt solutions that present an answer with a minimum of time and "leg work" required on my part. Either that or I'm just setting up a self-protection buffer to mask that I'll be slaving over each puzzle for hours, while rarely coming up with the solution.

Good idea with the time buffer, if you're infected with the puzzle virus and have the stubbornness to keep going even if your're not seeing any way to approach the problem you can waste hours or days. :eek: But the click in your head after you solved one makes up for it. :D The Cars and Buses grabbed my attention for several hours, but it was surely worth it. 👍

Regarding formal education: i've seen professional mathematicians wasting just as much or more time on these using monstrous advanced math technology, but still being baffled and impressed by a simple elegant solution. The ideal puzzle is easy to state, hard to solve but still should have an elegant and easily stated solution. But most puzzles are nothing more that an amusing waste of time for any keen puzzle solver -- though some of the solutions like the Fair Split or the Thief Parcel service hold the key idea of ensuring secure communication in the World Wide Web.

And finally a clarification for the Sudokus puzzle: Not only rotations and mirroring of the whole Sudoku make a new sudoku, but also other transformations. I'm looking for all that keep the numbers intact. For example exchanging the number 5 with the number 8 everywhere in a solved sudoku doesn't change it's validity. Imagine you have solved one sudoku and try to make the most of it: can you fill a sudoku book with one solved sudoku?
 
And finally a clarification for the Sudokus puzzle: Not only rotations and mirroring of the whole Sudoku make a new sudoku, but also other transformations. I'm looking for all that keep the numbers intact. For example exchanging the number 5 with the number 8 everywhere in a solved sudoku doesn't change it's validity. Imagine you have solved one sudoku and try to make the most of it: can you fill a sudoku book with one solved sudoku?
Does that mean that we need to multiply the previous answer given by this number?
IMG_20170124_164843.JPG

College was a long time ago so I can't remember for definite if I've used the correct function. I think it's Permutation.

That would bring the answer up to:
16 x 362,880 = 5,806,080

You could fill several books but someone would notice.
 
And finally a clarification for the Sudokus puzzle: Not only rotations and mirroring of the whole Sudoku make a new sudoku, but also other transformations. I'm looking for all that keep the numbers intact. For example exchanging the number 5 with the number 8 everywhere in a solved sudoku doesn't change it's validity. Imagine you have solved one sudoku and try to make the most of it: can you fill a sudoku book with one solved sudoku?
If you're going to allow transformations that allow transposing 5 and 8 throughout the puzzle then logically you'd have to allow exchanging 5 for 8, 8 for 3, and 3 for 5. As well as exchange 5 for 3, 3 for 8, and 8 for 5. Then there's exchange 5 for 8, 8 for 3, 3 for 1, 1 for 5 and all it's permutations, and so on and so forth. So in effect, it becomes "how many 3x3x3x3 Sudoku puzzles are possible". Is that your intent?
 
Cubes and Squares:

Fill in the following cross-number square:
All numbers must be either squares or cubes unless the number is the squareroot of 125


Code:
 ____________________________________________
|        |        |        |        |        |
|        |        |        |        |        |
---------------------------------------------
|        |        | XXXXXX | XXXXXX |        |
|        |        | XXXXXX | XXXXXX |        |
----------------------------------------------
|        |        |        |        | XXXXXX |
|        |        |        |        | XXXXXX |
----------------------------------------------
| XXXXXX |        |        |        |        |
| XXXXXX |        |        |        |        |
----------------------------------------------
|        | XXXXXX |        | XXXXXX |        |
|        | XXXXXX |        | XXXXXX |        |
----------------------------------------------

This shouldn't be too hard.
I have found two answers so far.....
Good luck!
:cheers:
 
If you're going to allow transformations that allow transposing 5 and 8 throughout the puzzle then logically you'd have to allow exchanging 5 for 8, 8 for 3, and 3 for 5. As well as exchange 5 for 3, 3 for 8, and 8 for 5. Then there's exchange 5 for 8, 8 for 3, 3 for 1, 1 for 5 and all it's permutations, and so on and so forth. So in effect, it becomes "how many 3x3x3x3 Sudoku puzzles are possible". Is that your intent?

It's hard to give away all operations without giving away half the puzzle fun, but let's say allowed operations are those that are as simple/similar to as rotating/reflecting the sudoku or relabeling the numbers, i.e. assigning once 5 to 8, 8 to 3 and so on. There are more than those two operations. And the question if those operations suffice to create all sudokus out of one is a nice followup puzzle. :sly:
 
91204
64xx9
1444x
x4096
8x0x4

I'm not fond of the first number, as the 2 and 0 can be thought of as vertical numbers and 2 isn't a cube or square. But i've worked up from the botton rows and that left be no choices for the biggest number except 31684 but 6 isn't square or cube either. :irked: :lol:

Using squares of 7,8,20,31,38,64,302 and cubes of 2,4.
 
And the question if those operations suffice to create all sudokus out of one is a nice followup puzzle. :sly:
There are various difficulty categories of sudoku that require a different variety of techniques to solve.

If one puzzle could be transformed by our method to create all possible sudokus then all sudokus would require the same techniques to solve & there wouldn't be easy, medium or hard categories.

Edit: My logic here was faulty, the squares that are filled in at the start can be selected by the author & will lead to varying levels of difficulty (techniques required to solve) for the same completed pattern.
 
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91204
64xx9
1444x
x4096
8x0x4

I'm not fond of the first number, as the 2 and 0 can be thought of as vertical numbers and 2 isn't a cube or square. But I've worked up from the button rows and that left be no choices for the biggest number except 31684 but 6 isn't square or cube either. :irked: :lol:

Using squares of 7,8,20,31,38,64,302 and cubes of 2,4.

^^^^^ Nice work!! @tarnheld 👍

Though, as you say, the "2" doesn't fully work:(, but I'm also afraid that perhaps my instructions weren't entirely clear on what I was considering a "number":(

When I designed this number-square, I was thinking of numbers that would be hinted at by clues like in a regular crossword puzzle. However, once I created the number-square, I then decided that individual clues would make it too easy, so I just gave a general overall clue that I thought was specific enough to handle the numbers (except for the problem with the squareroot of 125) so all I gave was the general hint.

So the clue for say "1 across" would be: "a number that is a square of a number larger than 101"
And the clue for say "2 down" would be: "a number that is a square of a number larger than 32"
And that all of the answers to these clues would be squares or cubes, but I was not intending that every number within these answers also had to be squares or cubes, this seems to have made finding a solution even harder than what I was intending.:(

So, the number needed for cell "3" (where you have inserted a "2") would need to be a cube or square (since it would be an answer for the "3 down" clue, but the number needed for cell "2" (where you inserted a "1") would not need to be a square or a cube (since this cell was just a part of the overall number for "2 down" or "1 across", and it would not be an actual number that would need its own "clue"). Does my explanation make any more sense?:nervous:
 
Another clarification to the Sudoku puzzle: The initial sudoku in the puzzle is a solved sudoku with all numbers filled in and satisfying all sudoku constraints: a 9×9 grid filled with digits so that each column, each row, and each of the nine 3×3 subgrids that compose the grid contains all of the digits from 1 to 9. It doesn't matter if the inital sudoku puzzle (the partially filled sudoku) was hard or easy, you can get back to a sudoku puzzle from a transformed sudoku by keeping track of the cleared places of the initial sudoku puzzle when doing your transformation and clear the places in the transformed puzzle. So your transformed sudoku puzzles will stay at the same difficulty level. I just want to count the sudokus that can be made from that complete sudoku, each of those will have one corresponding sudoku puzzle derived from the transformed cleared places of the initial sudoku puzzle. 👍

Though, as you say, the "2" doesn't fully work:(
I thought as much, back to the drawing board... :)
 
12996
27xx4
1444x
x4096
8x0x4

A slight modification was sufficient to get all cubes and squares horizontally and vertically. :D
 
Here is another nice geometry puzzle:

Shrubberies


On your quest for the Holy Grail you encounter the Knights who say Ni!. They refuse to allow passage through their woods unless you bring them a shrubbery, one that looks nice, is not too expensive and is arranged in the form of the light gray part of this diagram:
Bildschirmfoto 2017-01-29 um 22.35.03.png
After you harrassed the local villagers to fullfill their wish, you find them no longer being the Knights of Ni, but the Knights who say "Ekke Ekke Ekke Ekke Ptang Zoo Boing!". Also they now demand a rectangular shubbery. Can you fullfill their wish by cutting the original shrubbery into pieces (using a herring provided by the Knights who until recently said Ni!) and rearanging them into a rectangle and not wasting any piece of it?
 
Cut each light grey section from point to point where the dark grey meets the edge of the circle, then cut from the centre of those cut lines inward to the centre point of the circle. Switch left to right the two inner pieces and place them on the outside of the larger piece.
 
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