The Rant - Grrrrrr!!

[KingSakery]

The best example for Power decrease is the Ruf RGT.
GT3 --> 1200hp (but seriously over 1000hp)
GT4 and GT5 it only had/has 550ish hp

But from my side I don´t care if you have a fully modded 1200hp GTR or 700-800hp GTR.
It is still insanely fast.
This isn´t worth it to bleat about.

 

[davelis]

Even when that's taken into account, the power difference to previous versions still remains. I don't think there's many cars that gain 50bhp due to running in though, 10bhp maybe at most.

ford gt #1 882 hp
ford gt #2 864hp

not 50,but not 10 either

 

[Stradivis]

Maybe PD has got the downsizing fever in order to reduce CO2 emissions. =)

I believe the figures aren't all that accurate. Even then, somewhere along GT4 I've found that power is just an aspect of tuning, not all that important.

Still, can't understand why they reduced some cars horsepower.

 

[Smuttysy]

ford gt #1 882 hp
ford gt #2 864hp

not 50,but not 10 either

Ok, so that's 18bhp, and I did state that there aren't going to be many that it could potentially happen with. Even still, that doesn't change anything that's been said here before.
(EDIT - Noticed calculation inaccuracy after posting)

 

[Famine]

18hp.

Break-in and oil change is worth a 5% peak over a stock, 0 mile engine. So to gain 50hp it'd need 1000hp to start with. The average GT5 car has 293.6hp on a stock, 0 mile engine which equates to an average gain of 14.7hp.

 

[DEATHSARTHE]

Sure some cars have 1,000hp - either they're built with it or it has a functional use. Skylines and GTRs are already annoying to say the least because I personally believe they wered put in this game with some bias from PD, but god I couldn't imagine how terrible this game would be when all 1,000 different models of Skyline can be tuned to have 1,000hp. Yeah that's what we need.

As far as R32<R33<R34 goes... it's pretty reasonable that newer models are more powerful than the last. In some cases this isn't true and GT5 reflects that in other examples.

Now, one of the things I like about PD is they keep the tuning tasteful with most cars. However, some of the more popular cars in GT5 can be tuned to have a TON of power and I think its easy to under-rate just how much goes into a car to produce that 700-800hp or even more importantly 1,000hp+... and when you want to bring in aftermarket companies, then you have to question what they're intentions were. Was it to create a ****ing fast street car? Was it to create a dragster? Or was it diligently customized to be a GT car (which is one of the purpose of tuning in Gran Turismo)?

 

[Ford Driver]

Supra's, RX7's, Impreza's and GTO's have all been neglected

That is a rather silly statement.

I don't think you have much with these conspiracy theories, like DEATHSARTHE said, it makes sense that faster cars and newer models will, in general, be faster.

I think tuning is fine as it is, more power does not always equal more speed.

 

[Smuttysy]

more power does not always equal more speed.

There are many reasons why this statement is wrong, but I feel it may be condescending to point them all out to you. All I will say is look at exactly what you said there and then add 100bhp to any car and tell me that more power does not always equal more speed.

 

[Famine]

Not if it's already at its geared limit... It just means you bounce off it sooner.

 

[Smuttysy]

Even so, it'll hit that limit faster than if it didn't have that extra power added to it, that's why you add a different gearbox to accomodate the extra power.

 

[Famine]

Sooner. Not faster. If it can do 135mph at redline in top, adding 100hp to it will make it hit 135mph at redline in top a bit earlier. It gets no more speed.

This is a problem many kids run into the first time they play a GT game. "omfg!" they exclaim. "mi shelby mustang ELLANOR will onli do 116mph!", they continue. "its got 800hp!!!! why wont it go faster!". It's because they've left the transmission stock - so after lighting the tyres up through 3rd gear because they've overpower the car, they bounce off the 116mph limiter, just like the standard one.

More power only leads to more speed if you have the gearing to achieve it.

 

[Smuttysy]

Isn't fast / speed just a simple measure of time / distance?
Ok, so if you're running a completely standard car this may hold true, but the fact is most of the cars we use in GT are tuned, with racing gearboxes, lighter weight and more power.

You know what, I feel I may be trying to flog a dead horse here, maybe this thread should be closed, as some people really aren't capable of reading what's been said and understandng what's being put forward here.

 

[Famine]

Yes it is. distance/time = speed, typically measured in units like miles (distance) per (/) hour (time).

If the limit of your gearing is achievable in your car already, adding 100hp to it will not give you any more speed. You're already able to hit the maximum amount of speed your gearbox will allow without the extra power.

What the extra power will allow is better acceleration (speed/time, measured in units of mph/s, but more typically in m/s/s or ms^2), so you will hit that maximum speed sooner.

Ford Driver

more power does not always equal more speed.There are many reasons why this statement is wrong, but I feel it may be condescending to point them all out to you. All I will say is look at exactly what you said there and then add 100bhp to any car and tell me that more power does not always equal more speed.

Ford Driver's statement was exactly right. More power does not always equal more speed. When you reach the maximum speed your gearing will allow you need longer gearing to accommodate the extra power to give you more speed.

lighter weight

Weight has almost no effect on speed either. It has a huge effect on acceleration (like power), but almost no effect on speed.

 

[zr1chris]

Drag racing power levels only? Hmmm, need I mention Veyron?

not really since the Veyron is mainly a straight-away car. Everyone knows the Bugatti is not made to corner. Its just simply too heavy.

I wonder how many run can the V8 can handle.

Evidently it can make quite a few runs since they offer a 2 year warranty with the package. This company has been known to make the most reliable 1000HP cars in the world.

 

[Smuttysy]

And as I've already stated if referring to a standard gearbox this would hold true, but the fact of the matter is that most GT users have changed out their gearboxes.

Arguing this point again only furthers my suspicion that this thread's original premise has been completely misunderstood and seems set to continue that way so please close this thread now.

 

[Famine]

And as I've already stated if referring to a standard gearbox this would hold true, but the fact of the matter is that most GT users have changed out their gearboxes.

The fact of the matter is that you corrected a user inappropriately - more power does not always equal more speed, just as he said. Just as earlier you claimed several cars in GT1 produced over 1000hp and that cars in GT5 gained "10hp at most" through break-in, without checking the reality first.

Of course actually fitting a racing gearbox doesn't do anything either if you don't actually adjust the gear ratios - in many cases the default ratios on a race gearbox are geared to a lower top speed than the standard one. You still need to adjust those ratios to accommodate more power if you want more speed - so the simple act of just adding "100bhp to any car" will not result in a de facto increase of that vehicle's speed, as you claim.

Arguing this point again only furthers my suspicion that this thread's original premise has been completely misunderstood

If you want to rant about fictional things, feel free. But if you want to rant about real things based on fictional information, expect correction.

 

[Ford Driver]

I do understand what you are saying Smuttysy.
I admit my statement was a little brief, but I did say that more power does not always equal more speed.
In many cases it does, over a 400m drag race 1200 BHP would be fine assuming the car can put it all down. Over a longer drag race, as Famine pointed out, the car would simply redline faster, narrowing whatever advantage it had.
This amount of power on a track, however, I would see as a big disadvantage. The car would likely be very wayward, forcing very delicate cornering and slow exit speeds, and would probably shred it's tyres far quicker than normal, meaning more stops.
I upgrade almost every car I have, but have found that in many cases, the cars do not need fully modding, as it yields little or no advantage to add loads of extra BHP. You just have to do some testing and find the right balance.

A good tuning setup is far more important in my opinion, at least for track racing.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

The last part of the equation and probably the most elusive, particularly as power approaches critical mass, is hooking the car up, grip, or efficient power application.

You won't gain acceleration, and will delay speed without this key ingredient.

BTW, pay attention to Professor Indigo, he knows some stuff.

 

[zr1chris]

I do understand what you are saying Smuttysy.
I admit my statement was a little brief, but I did say that more power does not always equal more speed.
In many cases it does, over a 400m drag race 1200 BHP would be fine assuming the car can put it all down. Over a longer drag race, as Famine pointed out, the car would simply redline faster, narrowing whatever advantage it had.

Not true. In a drag race (no matter how short or long)as long as you have full grip more power will always equal faster (barring there are no other differences in setup, increased turbo lag, etc etc). the only time more power doesn't equal faster is when grip starts to become lost.

 

[Ford Driver]

Not true. In a drag race (no matter how short or long)as long as you have full grip more power will always equal faster (barring there are no other differences in setup, increased turbo lag, etc etc). the only time more power doesn't equal faster is when grip starts to become lost.

I didn't say it would lose, I just meant the advantage would be less in a longer race, especially if the wheels are still spinning and the 800BHP car is half a mile down the road.

 

[Famine]

Not true. In a drag race (no matter how short or long)as long as you have full grip more power will always equal faster (barring there are no other differences in setup, increased turbo lag, etc etc). the only time more power doesn't equal faster is when grip starts to become lost.

Some friends of ours run a ProET class Dodge Challenger. It runs about 850hp on a mix of AvGas and pump fuel and covers quarters in 9.5 at 145mph - and does 130 foot wheelies. It's geared to about 155mph. They were approached by someone selling a supercharger that would make the engine good for near-on 2,000hp.

In present form over a mile drag race, she'd hit the quarter in 9.5 at 145mph and take roughly another 18s to cover the remaining three quarters, crossing the finishing line at 155mph. In supercharged form she'd hit the quarter in 7ish at 155mph and take roughly another 17s to cover the remaining three quarters, crossing the finishing line at 155mph.

Without the gearing to accommodate the power, the car would see no improvement in top speed at all - an identical Vmax - despite more than doubling the power. What it would see is an improvement in acceleration. The average course speed would improve, but then that's a function of acceleration as you know.


All power does is provide effort to overcome air resistance to give you more potential speed. I have a nice formula to calculate it if you want it. You need the gearing to turn the potential into a reality.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I have a nice formula to calculate it if you want it. You need the gearing to turn the potential into a reality.

Just thought I would mention, you might want to whip up a good formula on retarding timing if your friend decides to buy that SuperCharger.

May want to "O" ring the heads too.

 

[Jack002]

Ok, so when it suits them they say "it's not realistic" till its not what they want to do.

How is a game that gives you so much power you can't drive the car and have to detune it to drive it not as good as one where all the powers are limited down? Is this Mario Kart?

 

[zr1chris]

Some friends of ours run a ProET class Dodge Challenger. It runs about 850hp on a mix of AvGas and pump fuel and covers quarters in 9.5 at 145mph - and does 130 foot wheelies. It's geared to about 155mph. They were approached by someone selling a supercharger that would make the engine good for near-on 2,000hp.

In present form over a mile drag race, she'd hit the quarter in 9.5 at 145mph and take roughly another 18s to cover the remaining three quarters, crossing the finishing line at 155mph. In supercharged form she'd hit the quarter in 7ish at 155mph and take roughly another 17s to cover the remaining three quarters, crossing the finishing line at 155mph.

Without the gearing to accommodate the power, the car would see no improvement in top speed at all - an identical Vmax - despite more than doubling the power. What it would see is an improvement in acceleration. The average course speed would improve, but then that's a function of acceleration as you know.


All power does is provide effort to overcome air resistance to give you more potential speed. I have a nice formula to calculate it if you want it. You need the gearing to turn the potential into a reality.

Thats a bit extreme of a situation. I didnt think you would be comparing with a car that is specifically geared for a quarter mile run. If a car is going for a mile drag then you would have to assume that its geared for a mile drag (which means the car with more power will be faster all the way down the track) in which that would change your entire point of view.

 

[Famine]

Just thought I would mention, you might want to whip up a good formula on retarding timing if your friend decides to buy that SuperCharger.

May want to "O" ring the heads too.

What they do to that car is so far beyond my knowledge it's not even funny.

Thats a bit extreme of a situation. I didnt think you would be comparing with a car that is specifically geared for a quarter mile run.

It's not. Its ratios are factory.

If a car is going for a mile drag then you would have to assume that its geared for a mile drag (which means the car with more power will be faster all the way down the track) in which that would change your entire point of view.

How would it? It even more sharply brings into focus the point that power only gives potential for speed - it's only when combined with appropriate gearing that you get actual speed.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

What they do to that car is so far beyond my knowledge it's not even funny.

If they are Drag Racing a 850hp car that pulls that kind of wheelstand, somebody better know what they are doing.
Truly art and science.

I was referring to two of the more common problems with forced-induction engines.

Retarding the timing is used as a safegaurd to help prevent detonation (which can melt the pistons) if "leaning out" under full boost pressures occurs.

Blown head gaskets are the other malady, suffered from elevated combustion chamber pressures.
Sometimes they will "O" ring the heads, in which a round groove is cut around the combustion chamber on the head and fitted with a wire ring to provide additional sealing capabilty.

I'm sure there maybe other tricks to deal with these things, thats just two that I'm aware of.

 

[zr1chris]

It's not. Its ratios are factory.

Iv'e never heard of a 9 second 800+HP beast using factory gearing but, okay. Extremely uncommon. What kind of car is it that your referring to anyway?

How would it? It even more sharply brings into focus the point that power only gives potential for speed - it's only when combined with appropriate gearing that you get actual speed.

I guess I should be saying quicker and not faster. I think this part is a simple misunderstanding.

 

[Famine]

'74 Challenger. In fact, this one:

Note the Dodge Wobble... scary​

Quicker = acceleration (m/s/s or ms^2); Faster = speed (mph or *spits* km/h), but I covered that earlier:

Without the gearing to accommodate the power, the car would see no improvement in top speed at all - an identical Vmax - despite more than doubling the power. What it would see is an improvement in acceleration. The average course speed would improve, but then that's a function of acceleration as you know.

 

[zr1chris]

'74 Challenger.

The top speed of the fastest 74 Challenger is 131mph. Therefor it definitely isn't factory gears.
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/m...challenger_1gen_base_2-door_hardtop/1974.html

 

[Famine]

Remember, wheels are part of your gearing... You'd only need an 18% bigger wheel/tyre combo - that's the equivalent of an 18" rim with the same profile on a car originally shipped with a 15" rim - to see that effect, and Habit is wearing colossal Hoosier drag slicks... Compare them to the stock 15x5.5 60-series the Challenger usually wore (they're the ones on the front, if that helps)...