"The Real Driving Simulator"

[TumeK5]

Inspired by @Maneawolff's comments.

When Gran Turismo was originally released in 1997, it was considered the most realistic racing game at the time, and not without reason. Sports Car GT, by ISI (known for rFactor and the ISImotor) was released two years later, along with Gran Turismo 2, which were the top titles for realism.

However, things changed when we entered the next millennium. Gran Turismo 3 came out, again, one of the top contenders for simulation at the time. Technology was starting to evolve, with graphics and programming capabilities dramatically evolving. This is why even for a 2001 game, GT3 looked stunning for its time, and physics were drastically better and more realistic than Gran Turismo 2. Even so, this is when Gran Turismo started to lose its edge on its selling slogan.

GT3 is known for being a playground for physics, more specifically, the wheelie glitch. This allowed cars like Escudo, EVEN GT-ONE, to wheelie despite it making zero sense. Cars can wheelie, make no mistake, but in both cases, the cars would clip into the ground, an in addition, accelerate to abnormal speeds. Not only that, but the cars remain in a stable wheelie, when in reality they would be thrown into a backflip caused by the drag.

If we go overboard and mock the slogan, what else can we think of (GT3 and onward)? Let's see...

1. No proper damage model. This is painfully obvious in Gran Turismo 7. Not only is the visual damage completely lacking, aside from small dents and scratches, but they also bumped up the damage sensitivity in events where it applies. Although Polyphony did add a more noticeable damage model in the PS3 era, it hasn't returned due to the amount of effort needed to realistically model damage for the higher poly counts.
2. No tire temperature. Since we're on topic of absolute peak realism, this is a considerable factor. We all know tire temperatures dictate tire wear and behaviour, but it has never been a thing in GT. Only very basic tire wear.
3. No transmission damage. While arguably this is a feature not even most proper sims provide, it's a thing in Assetto Corsa or Live for Speed for example: if you run a manual transmission car and don't use clutch, you will damage the transmission. It's also worth pointing out Live For Speed was first released in 2002, just a year after GT3, so this is when GT's slogan began to be challenged.
4. No realistic weather/tire evolution until GT7. Before the forementioned game, all we had was day-night switching and rain effects. But now, the rain is an actual feature, the weather being a variable and not always the same, along with the track now drying post-rain.
5. Abnormalities with physics. I'm talking about things like handbrake-shifting in GT3, throttling while braking during cornering in GT4, both for maximized performance. I can't name anything else from the top off my head right now, but things that certainly don't work in real life.

What unrealistic driving simulation can you think of?

 

[TJC_69]

Inspired by @Maneawolff's comments.

When Gran Turismo was originally released in 1997, it was considered the most realistic racing game at the time, and not without reason. Sports Car GT, by ISI (known for rFactor and the ISImotor) was released two years later, along with Gran Turismo 2, which were the top titles for realism.

However, things changed when we entered the next millennium. Gran Turismo 3 came out, again, one of the top contenders for simulation at the time. Technology was starting to evolve, with graphics and programming capabilities dramatically evolving. This is why even for a 2001 game, GT3 looked stunning for its time, and physics were drastically better and more realistic than Gran Turismo 2. Even so, this is when Gran Turismo started to lose its edge on its selling slogan.

GT3 is known for being a playground for physics, more specifically, the wheelie glitch. This allowed cars like Escudo, EVEN GT-ONE, to wheelie despite it making zero sense. Cars can wheelie, make no mistake, but in both cases, the cars would clip into the ground, an in addition, accelerate to abnormal speeds. Not only that, but the cars remain in a stable wheelie, when in reality they would be thrown into a backflip caused by the drag.

If we go overboard and mock the slogan, what else can we think of (GT3 and onward)? Let's see...

1. No proper damage model. This is painfully obvious in Gran Turismo 7. Not only is the visual damage completely lacking, aside from small dents and scratches, but they also bumped up the damage sensitivity in events where it applies. Although Polyphony did add a more noticeable damage model in the PS3 era, it hasn't returned due to the amount of effort needed to realistically model damage for the higher poly counts.
2. No tire temperature. Since we're on topic of absolute peak realism, this is a considerable factor. We all know tire temperatures dictate tire wear and behaviour, but it has never been a thing in GT. Only very basic tire wear.
3. No transmission damage. While arguably this is a feature not even most proper sims provide, it's a thing in Assetto Corsa or Live for Speed for example: if you run a manual transmission car and don't use clutch, you will damage the transmission. It's also worth pointing out Live For Speed was first released in 2002, just a year after GT3, so this is when GT's slogan began to be challenged.
4. No realistic weather/tire evolution until GT7. Before the forementioned game, all we had was day-night switching and rain effects. But now, the rain is an actual feature, the weather being a variable and not always the same, along with the track now drying post-rain.
5. Abnormalities with physics. I'm talking about things like handbrake-shifting in GT3, throttling while braking during cornering in GT4, both for maximized performance. I can't name anything else from the top off my head right now, but things that certainly don't work in real life.

What unrealistic driving simulation can you think of?

I believe there is an app that can be downloaded to show you real time tyre temperature as you are racing in GT7.


Why this data is not in the UI, is anyone's guess. Polyphony are a weird developer.

I miss the rally car damage model from GT5. If only they realised this was 2022 and not 1992...

 

[MOPARbarrett5]

The way that I've viewed GT in terms of realism for over 10 years now is that people have gone from playing the game to successfully racing in real life, so while the game is far from a perfect simulator it is still accurate enough where I don't consider it simcade.

 

[Lux Klonoa]

Aren't RFactor and iRacing the sim kings anyway? Last I heard...

 

[TumeK5]

Aren't RFactor and iRacing the sim kings anyway? Last I heard...

And Assetto Corsa. Competizione to be precise.

 

[Remy Zero]

I personally believe there's much more important things to address in GT7 rather than it's slogan and realism.

 

[Scaff]

Inspired by @Maneawolff's comments.

When Gran Turismo was originally released in 1997, it was considered the most realistic racing game at the time, and not without reason. Sports Car GT, by ISI (known for rFactor and the ISImotor) was released two years later, along with Gran Turismo 2, which were the top titles for realism.

However, things changed when we entered the next millennium. Gran Turismo 3 came out, again, one of the top contenders for simulation at the time. Technology was starting to evolve, with graphics and programming capabilities dramatically evolving. This is why even for a 2001 game, GT3 looked stunning for its time, and physics were drastically better and more realistic than Gran Turismo 2. Even so, this is when Gran Turismo started to lose its edge on its selling slogan.

GT3 is known for being a playground for physics, more specifically, the wheelie glitch. This allowed cars like Escudo, EVEN GT-ONE, to wheelie despite it making zero sense. Cars can wheelie, make no mistake, but in both cases, the cars would clip into the ground, an in addition, accelerate to abnormal speeds. Not only that, but the cars remain in a stable wheelie, when in reality they would be thrown into a backflip caused by the drag.

If we're honest GT as a series has never been a 'benchmark' for physics if you include PC as a platform (and at launch in '97 Cramond's Gran Prix 2 had been out for over a year), it was a strong contender for that title on console, but again not alone considering that TOCA released in the same year, and was not only at least GT's equal in regard to physics, but also featured licensed tracks, weather, and even a cockpit view.

Once you get past GT3 the completion on all platforms starts to leave GT as a series behind in terms of physics accuracy, with the biggest moves coming with the release of titles such as Enthusia and Richard Burns Rally on PS2.

When you look at PC, GT as a series was never a contender for having the most detailed or accurate physics engine.

If we go overboard and mock the slogan, what else can we think of (GT3 and onward)? Let's see...

1. No proper damage model. This is painfully obvious in Gran Turismo 7. Not only is the visual damage completely lacking, aside from small dents and scratches, but they also bumped up the damage sensitivity in events where it applies. Although Polyphony did add a more noticeable damage model in the PS3 era, it hasn't returned due to the amount of effort needed to realistically model damage for the higher poly counts.

Indeed, but arguably given the reception damage has got of late, it's not something the core audience for the title wants.

1. No tire temperature. Since we're on topic of absolute peak realism, this is a considerable factor. We all know tire temperatures dictate tire wear and behaviour, but it has never been a thing in GT. Only very basic tire wear.

It's got tyre temp, it works in an odd way and seems to expose further issues with the model, however, wants more specifically missing, is the ability to adjust tyre pressure.

1. No transmission damage. While arguably this is a feature not even most proper sims provide, it's a thing in Assetto Corsa or Live for Speed for example: if you run a manual transmission car and don't use clutch, you will damage the transmission. It's also worth pointing out Live For Speed was first released in 2002, just a year after GT3, so this is when GT's slogan began to be challenged.

Err, most of the titles that are considered 'proper' sims most certainly do model transmission damage.

1. No realistic weather/tire evolution until GT7. Before the forementioned game, all we had was day-night switching and rain effects. But now, the rain is an actual feature, the weather being a variable and not always the same, along with the track now drying post-rain.

GT7 doesn't have tyre/track evolution even in GT7, tracks don't start off green and then rubber in. The weather is good, but it's still got it's limitations, and the drying line is pre-baked in. The Madness engine's LiveTrack system still has it beat across the board, particularly in AMS2.

1. Abnormalities with physics. I'm talking about things like handbrake-shifting in GT3, throttling while braking during cornering in GT4, both for maximized performance. I can't name anything else from the top off my head right now, but things that certainly don't work in real life.

Dampers, aero, weight/load transfer, plenty still exist.

What unrealistic driving simulation can you think of?

Every sim has its limits, weakness, and glitches. At the end of the day its a balance, between how much hardware grunt the devs have to play with to balance the visuals side with the physics side (and GT has always favoured the visual side), the target audience the title is being aimed at, etc.

 

[TumeK5]

Every sim has its limits, weakness, and glitches.

Naturally. This is why I didn't bring up hilariously strong rollovers with the momentum and weight transfer lasting forever, as every single sim struggles to get high-speed crashes right.

It's a bit unfair to compare PS1 era GTs to PC as PC could extract a lot more at the time. Of course even on PS1 Toca was decent.

 

[Scaff]

Naturally. This is why I didn't bring up hilariously strong rollovers with the momentum and weight transfer lasting forever, as every single sim struggles to get high-speed crashes right.

MOst do indeed get that wrong, some more than others.

It's a bit unfair to compare PS1 era GTs to PC as PC could extract a lot more at the time. Of course even on PS1 Toca was decent.

Err, you did exactly that...

"Sports Car GT, by ISI (known for rFactor and the ISImotor) was released two years later, along with Gran Turismo 2, which were the top titles for realism."

...as such it's a bit odd to take issue with me doing it? You opened the door for such comparisons unless you are under the mistaken idea that ISI developed the PlayStation version of Sports Car GT.

"Sports Car GT was initially a project of Virgin Interactive until Electronic Arts bought its North American division.[2][3] The game was created by entirely different developers each for the PC and PlayStation versions.[2] In 2005 the developers of Sports Car GT released the multi-class sim rFactor and the successor to the GMotor 1 engine first used in Sports Car GT for Windows."

"Sports Car GT is a 1999 racing sim game based on GT racing. It was published by Electronic Arts (EA) and developed by Image Space Incorporated for Microsoft Windows, and Point of View for PlayStation. Both editions of the game feature co-development by Westwood Studios."

Sports Car GT - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Image Space Incorporated - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RACINGKH]

Assetto Corsa Competizione 🏆🥇

 

[TumeK5]

unless you are under the mistaken idea that ISI developed the PlayStation version of Sports Car GT.

"Sports Car GT was created by entirely different developers each for the PC and PlayStation versions.

I was, I thought they were both by ISI.

Either way, even already in 99 we had a decent sim for PC. I like to think this is were better sims started to grow from.

 

[Scaff]

Either way, even already in 99 we had a decent sim for PC.

Earlier than that.

1989's Indy 500 is generally considered to be the start.

Sim racing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[shadow0460]

Sega had PD beat to racing sim game with Sega Touring Car Championship. I have that game and the full analog control pad that goes with it.
It makes the Maggiore Enduro and the S-7 and S-10 license tests look like child's play. Gran Turismo 2 would suffer the same downfalls Touring Car did two years prior: the level of realism demanded difficult games.