The Return of the Muscle Car?

[JohnBM01]

GTPlanet, I've been thinking. The modernized retro trend all began with the lovely 2005 Ford Mustang. Afterwards, we've seen the latest Dodge Charger, the beautiful (maybe not in the sense of something like a Ferrari F430 or a Mercedes SLR McLaren)) Dodge Challenger Concept, and the latest Camaro concept. So let me ask you, after more than about 30 years...

* Is the muscle car back after about 30 years?
* Have designs changed and have been designed better since the muscle car heyday?
* How long can this muscle car revival last?

Well, is the muscle car back? Reply!

 

[JCE]

GTPlanet, I've been thinking. The modernized retro trend all began with the lovely 2005 Ford Mustang. Afterwards, we've seen the latest Dodge Charger, the beautiful (maybe not in the sense of something like a Ferrari F430 or a Mercedes SLR McLaren)) Dodge Challenger Concept, and the latest Camaro concept. So let me ask you, after more than about 30 years...

* Is the muscle car back after about 30 years?
* Have designs changed and have been designed better since the muscle car heyday?
* How long can this muscle car revival last?

Well, is the muscle car back? Reply!

1. Yes the muscle car is back--thank freaking god.
2. Yes and no, it's a matter of opinion. The 1970 GTO to me is beautiful but the Holden Monaro or HSV GTO to me is also beautiful. I guess what I'm trying to say is I love both eras of muscle cars and won't dimenish either by compairing between the two.
3. As long as a fuel source produces enough power to satisfy us the car enthusiast.

So yes, the muscle car is back baby!

 

[red70mach1]

1) Yes. And thank you.
2) More no than yes. Its modernized to roam the roads, but still have flare of retro.
3) As long as we have fuel. I don't mind owning a flex-fuel version of the Mustang if ti ever comes out.

Its back from its sleepy domain.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, the "muscle car" has been around for a few years. Cars like the GTO, CTS-V, Charger/Magnum/300C come to mind there...

What we are currently seeing (2005+) is a revival of the "pony car" or the models that were created after 1964/1965 to compete with the Ford Mustang. Cars like the Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Plymouth Barracuda/'Cuda, Dodge Challenger, AMC Javalin/AMX, etc.

Although the terms "pony car" and "muscle car" have become interchangeable, the notion of the traditional American performance car is back once again. If anything, the 2005 Mustang GT was the symbol of what this country can do, what they should do, and how they should be doing it. If you have a car that is selling out in less than six months even when it is a full-production model, youve got a big hit on your hands, and the other manufactuers have realised that.

Not to deminish the GTO or the Chrysler LX cars, but they arent exactly in the same vein as the Mustang. They are too big and a bit too heavy to compete directly, but performance wise they are right on target. Thats why the GTO has been unoffically canceled to make way for the Camaro and RWD W-body cars (and possibly the Firebird?), and there has been a lot of talk about modifying the LX platform for the Challenger...

The competition is only going to get better, and if GM and DCX can build a good $25-30K RWD V8-powered coupe, they will most certainly have great compeditors to the current Mustang.

 

[JCE]

Not to deminish the GTO or the Chrysler LX cars, but they arent exactly in the same vein as the Mustang. They are too big and a bit too heavy to compete directly, but performance wise they are right on target. Thats why the GTO has been unoffically canceled to make way for the Camaro and RWD W-body cars (and possibly the Firebird?), and there has been a lot of talk about modifying the LX platform for the Challenger...

The competition is only going to get better, and if GM and DCX can build a good $25-30K RWD V8-powered coupe, they will most certainly have great compeditors to the current Mustang.

But I don't think the Monaro/GTO is too heavy to compete in this segment...the '06 Mustang GT weighs 3,483lbs while the GTO weighs 3,725lbs which isn't that much more and it has more bhp/torque (which you mentioned) to easily compensate for the slightly larger weight. In contrast the 350Z weighs about 3,300lbs or so which is why it can compete in this segment with less bhp. While I dislike all Dodge/Chrysler products the Challenger can compete even while being heavy--that's just it, the older muscle cars were even heavier and they weren't exactly slow even back then. The great thing about the current generation muscle cars is technology--yes yes Americans and or Australians have stone age technology blah blah blah according to alot of Europeans--that isn't entirely true they can hold thier own against alot of what Europe has to offer. Look at TopGear--they are as anti-colony cars as you can get and they love the Monaro/GTO and the Mustang GT. These cars along with the Challenger will accomplish what a muscle car should--a sense of thrill everytime you floor it. And for a change can be quite fun taking corners. 👍

 

[JohnBM01]

The reason why I talk about "is the musclecar back?" is inspired from the belief that companies make too many bigtime cars with front-drive. Not that I've asked for public opinion, the presumption on FWD is that they are only reserved for wimpy, girly cars and soccer mom stuff.

I know "BlazinXtreme" is learning how to become an automotive news reporter or something, but I played my own role of "private investigation," as I've asked some of the Chevy people about if we'll see a rear-wheel drive Impala. During my Houston Auto Show adventures, I've been told that people keep talking over making a rear-wheel drive Impala, and not so much about "well John, you'll get your RWD Impala soon" or anything like that. If this retro trend continues, some of the more softened-up cars will see their glory again. Can you imagine Chevy coming up with a RWD Impala concept which looks like the 1963 models, only more modernized? What about Ford making a recent Thunderbird that would sell better than the one released back around 1999 or so? If Pontiac gets in this, they'll have to really come up with something to juice their company up. People complained about the recent GTO's looks, but at least it looked better than the G6 and all that crap. Maybe a rendition of the 1971 GTO would be pretty cool. Mercury could design something modern in the mold of the Cougar. You know, like the classic Cougar we're used to in Gran Turismos 2 and 4. Speaking of dull brands, Buick could shut me up by brining back the 1980s Grand National GN/X or however it's called. I call it a tuner car for muscle car types. To end... can you imagine (even though Plymouth made it and Plymouth is no longer in business) DaimlerChrysler bringing back the Superbird- long with a tall spoiler?

I guess you'll have to think about it like this too. It gives younger types a chance to know what it was like in the old days with a big American car. I'm sick of saying this, but it's true- Ford did a GREAT job styling the latest Mustang. Look what it started. Probably my favorite modern muscle car is the Dodge Challenger concept. If this trend continues, we could see a number of old cars given new life and already-existing cars made better.

 

[Master_Yoda]

No not really, muscle cars were big ass American cars with 400-500 even more bhp, and horable handling,now they decreased the width of the wheels for better performence, and handling.

 

[Wolfe]

No not really, muscle cars were big ass American cars with 400-500 even more bhp...

Not quite. Old-school musclecars had huge, inefficient engines -- 400hp was one hell of an accomplishment, and 500hp was a miracle. Musclecars were more about torque than horsepower, anyway, but even then they were just inefficient compared to today's engines (not that such a comparison is really fair).

and horable handling,now they decreased the width of the wheels for better performence, and handling.

You've got that backwards. Old-school wheels/tires were skinny and tiny by modern standards, which certainly attributed to the poor handling.

 

[Blake]

But, many muscle cars had tyres wider than all four of mine lined up next to each other – I remember seeing a Shelby Cobra up close a few weeks ago, and I was amazed at how large the tyres were when you saw them in real life.

 

[YSSMAN]

The modernized versions of the old cars that you see running around today often run on modern radials that you could get for your BMW. The older wheels and tires were indeed rather narrow, as with my father's '68 Camaro, I believe the wheels on my Jetta are as wide as those on the front of his Camaro (If I remember correctly, of course).

There has been so much talk about the W-Body cars going RWD, as John pointed out, sometimes it can be hard to know exactly whats going on. According to the last issue of Motor Trend, the W-Body cars are set to go RWD for 2009 or 2010 (maybe) based on a larger version of the Zeta Lite platform that will be underpinning the Holden Commodore in Australia. The Impala will be the first to get the new platform with the W-Bodies, and thereafter it can be assumed that the platform will also be used on the Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, and LaCrosse (a return of the Regal may be comming as well). Most noteably would be the Camaro being built on the same platform, sharing bits and pieces with the Monaro and possibly the GTO (assuming the cancelation rumors are false).

All in all, were seeing a return to classic American ideas in full-size cars, lead by the Chrysler LX cars, and soon the GM Zeta cars. The question then becomes as to if Ford will debut a RWD sedan, maybe similar to the Falcon or Galaxy cars from Australia. While it would be great to see the cars come to the US, that would mean the Fivehundred would have to be dropped to make room for the Galaxy, and the Falcon may knock-off the Fusion.

 

[Jay]

maybe similar to the Falcon or Galaxy cars from Australia.

Galaxy? We haven't had a Ford Galaxy for a long time.

 

[YSSMAN]

Galaxy? We haven't had a Ford Galaxy for a long time.

I was thinking of the Ford Galaxie, but I had meant to say the Fairlane. I need to do a better job remembering the names of the Fords...

It would be nice to see the Fairlane come 'Stateside and replace the Fivehundred, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

 

[SRV2LOW4ME]

Old-school musclecars had huge, inefficient engines -- 400hp was one hell of an accomplishment, and 500hp was a miracle. Musclecars were more about torque than horsepower, anyway, but even then they were just inefficient compared to today's engines (not that such a comparison is really fair).

I think everyone will agree with you when you say inefficient, but claiming 400 hp was hard to acheive would be incorrect in my opinion. Many car makers, and others in the industry would tell you that most cars rolling off the production lines in the late 60's had their hp under rated for insurance, as well as for other reasons, or they had their hp restrained by smaller exhaust systems, carbs, and other engine pieces. For example, the 426 HEMI was rated at 425 hp, 450 lbs/tq but if you were to buy one off the lot and place it on the dyno, you'd easily push over 500hp. Many other Chevy and Ford engines were like that as well. Watch "American Muscle Car" or look up personal experiences of people and their cars on the internet and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Slicks]

I think there is one thing that will prevent the true return of the musclecar - price.
Back in the 60's, musclecars were midsize/fullsize cars cars with lots of power, more torque, and a low price tag. But, the new-age musclecar costs lots. Like, fully-loaded-Lincoln-back-then lots. I think all these cars would have to sell from 20-30k in order to be similar to the musclecars we remember, not 30-40k. We're getting close in terms of spirit, but we've still got a long way to go in pricing.

 

[Slicks]

I think everyone will agree with you when you say inefficient, but claiming 400 hp was hard to acheive would be incorrect in my opinion. Many car makers, and others in the industry would tell you that most cars rolling off the production lines in the late 60's had their hp under rated for insurance, as well as for other reasons, or they had their hp restrained by smaller exhaust systems, carbs, and other engine pieces. For example, the 426 HEMI was rated at 425 hp, 450 lbs/tq but if you were to buy one off the lot and place it on the dyno, you'd easily push over 500hp. Many other Chevy and Ford engines were like that as well. Watch "American Muscle Car" or look up personal experiences of people and their cars on the internet and you'll see what I mean.

True, these engines were often underrated, but they were also measured differently. They used to measure them in gross ratings, so that's just the engine, without any accessories running off of it (Like alternator, a/c, fans, etc.) When measured in net ratings, it was common to lose anywhere from 20-50 hp, depending on the engine power.


Someone (Blake, I believe) mentioned seeing a Cobra with big, fat tires on it. You must remember that the Cobra was basically a race car. The more common cars (Like Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles, Fairlanes, Corvettes, and so on) had very skinny bias-ply tires. They did not fare well under heavy acceleration or cornering.

Edit - Sorry for the double-post. Didn't realise I was doing so.

 

[JCE]

True, these engines were often underrated, but they were also measured differently. They used to measure them in gross ratings, so that's just the engine, without any accessories running off of it (Like alternator, a/c, fans, etc.) When measured in net ratings, it was common to lose anywhere from 20-50 hp, depending on the engine power.

While this is true the 50bhp loss doesn't mean much when the engine still produces 400-450bhp average with the 50bhp taken off. Just imagine the torque figures...just immense. I also agree with the price--but I say some of it is due to the auto industry raping it's customers with serious overcharges. By raising the prices for these cars (IE the Thunderbird) they prey on the people (mostly original generation owners) that will buy it regardless and thus get raped in the ass by the auto maker and dealer as well. Take Honda for instance--they overcharge for the Civic and V6 Hybrid Accords and on top of that the dealers (like the one I work for) absolutely RAPE it's customers on bull**** like (my dealer example); pin stripe $299.99 (actual cost is $20-30 including the labor to put it on), Pro Pack--which is basically mud guards $599.99 (actual cost $100-150 including the labor), and the biggest BS ever ... EPP--which is somekind of amour-all (spelling?) on steriods which the dealer charges $499.99 when the actual cost is $101.50 according to my inventory screen--but the actual liquid costs less than $70.00. Every dealer does this, rediculous. A local Pontiac dealer sold some of the first hundred 2004 GTOs for $10,000 over invoice AND put BS like pin stripping on them (which I think pin stripes are stupid anyway).

 

[Jay]

I was thinking of the Ford Galaxie, but I had meant to say the Fairlane. I need to do a better job remembering the names of the Fords...

It would be nice to see the Fairlane come 'Stateside and replace the Fivehundred, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Fairlane is just a extended wheel base Falcon with some visual changes and luxurys, not that interesting in my opinion, same Statesman is to Commodore.

Replace the Statesman with a Cadillac and Fairlane with a Lincon please.

 

[YSSMAN]

Hey, the Caprice would be nice to have back in the States. With such a long history as a great car here in the US, the full-size sedan would compete directly with the 300C and Fivehundred, and probably manage to become the new Police vehicle of choise in many American cities and states.

The last Caprice we had was in 1996, and although it was available with everything from a 4.3L V8, 5.0L V8, and 5.7L V8. The latter was taken directly out of the Camaro Z/28, good for 260HP, and could propell the car north of 140MPH without a problem. But the car got too old too fast, and they ditched it, unfortunately.

 

[Jay]

Over here the Caprice name was always a 'top of the line Statesman' for people that wanted more luxury than a Commodore, never really its own model like it has been in the US.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Back in the day, the Caprice used to be a special eddition of the Chevrolet Impala, making it the top-line model. But in 1979, the Caprice became a stand-alone model, and the Impala eventually dissappeared. Then in 1994, Chevrolet decided to take the Caprice 9C1 police car and fit it with leather seats, 16" wheels, and a black pearl paintjob and thus created the infamous Impala SS.

Diehard GM guys have been begging GM to bring back the true full-size RWD sedan for Chevrolet (and the other non-Cadillac brands) for years. The cars sold exceptionally well, and even when used, they get bought up rather quickly. If GM gets smart, they will be building a RWD Impala for 2008 or 2009...

By the way: The Autoextremist commenting on the cancelation of the GTO after the 2006 model year...

So if you like RWD high-performance, you owe it to yourself to check out the GTO before it disappears. And by the way, Pontiac enthusiasts shouldn't give up on the brand just yet, as there is a RWD performance car coming for the division. After the new Camaro makes its street debut as a 2008 model, watch for an all-new Pontiac Firebird to debut 12 months later as a 2009 model. You read it here first.

 

[JohnBM01]

I got into cars from the Chevrolet Camaro. When I was starting out as a car fan, I often confused the F-Body Camaro and the F-Body Firebird. As I matured, I told the difference between the two. It would sure be interesting to see the Firebird return. I'm more used to the F-Body types of the 1990s and up. Whatever the Pontiac boys and girls have planned for this thing, I'll want to check out more info on this bad boy. But if it comes out, it may likely resemble the 1970s types, which I'm not real fond of. But, it's up to Pontiac.

I'm going to agree on the price comment. Usual prices for cars around maybe last decade were about $15K. I can even remember the 1990s Camaros selling for no more than $20K. Nowadays, $20K-$30K is common (damn inflation!). A cost of about $20K to $25K is pretty normal while most Korean cars and Scions sell for less than $20K. Can you imagine if the latest Charger sold for about $15K or $19K? They'd sell DAMN well.

Any more contributions to this thread? You are welcome to comment. Keep it moving...

 

[JCE]

I'm going to agree on the price comment. Usual prices for cars around maybe last decade were about $15K. I can even remember the 1990s Camaros selling for no more than $20K.

In 1990 my mom bought a 1990 Camaro RS and it only costed $11,000 and some change. Now $11,000 barely buys you a Hyundai or Kia.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, there are conflicting reports about the Firebird now...

In recent weeks, we've written about GM's planned rear-wheel-drive offensive — a plan aimed at competing with the growing number of RWD offerings from other American and Asian automakers. The primary target is, of course, the Chrysler 300C and its siblings, the Dodge Magnum, Charger, Challenger, and Chrysler Imperial. Today, columnist Jim Mateja, writing for the Chicago Tribune, speculates that a new Pontiac GTO may be a part of GM's strategy, despite yesterday's announcement that the company would discontinue the current model. Recently, Motor Trend said there would not be another GTO, but Mateja is more optimistic. Other recent rumors have suggested GM's RWD platform will be used for a new Firebird and Trans AM, as suggested by AutoSpies and AutoExtremist. Edmunds has also speculated that a new Impala will target the 300C directly in 2009. In the end, it's not too clear what will happen, but we can't wait to see!

I'm kinda split here. While I do indeed love Firebirds just as much as Camaros, I would almost rather see the GTO stay in the Pontiac lineup. The GTO is a much better compeditor to the upper-crust companies that Pontiac "competes" with... Cars such as the G35, TL, 325i, IS250, A4 etc... Obviously the GTO would be gunning for the M3, C55, S4 and the like, something that the Firebird was never meant to do. Its up to GM in this situation... Continue the long tradition of the Camaro/Firebird twins, or move the GTO in as a "seperate but equal" model.

...As for pricing, Chevrolet and Dodge are going to need to shoot for the magic $25-30K window if they are going to compete directly with the Mustang. Obviously it will be difficult to make a profit at that level with the ways the Camaro and Challenger were displayed, so dont be surprised to see the "bread and butter" Camaro and Challenger come equipped with lower-level V8s probably sourced from their truck and SUV lineups.

Then again, Chevrolet and Dodge will probably also go crazy and build models to chase down the new SVT Shelby Cobra GT500... Dont be surprised if there are 450+HP Camaros running modified LS2s running around, and the same can be said of 425+HP Challengers as well. People love these cars, and they make up a large part of sales for the company.

 

[JCE]

Well, there are conflicting reports about the Firebird now...



I'm kinda split here. While I do indeed love Firebirds just as much as Camaros, I would almost rather see the GTO stay in the Pontiac lineup. The GTO is a much better compeditor to the upper-crust companies that Pontiac "competes" with... Cars such as the G35, TL, 325i, IS250, A4 etc... Obviously the GTO would be gunning for the M3, C55, S4 and the like, something that the Firebird was never meant to do. Its up to GM in this situation... Continue the long tradition of the Camaro/Firebird twins, or move the GTO in as a "seperate but equal" model.

...As for pricing, Chevrolet and Dodge are going to need to shoot for the magic $25-30K window if they are going to compete directly with the Mustang. Obviously it will be difficult to make a profit at that level with the ways the Camaro and Challenger were displayed, so dont be surprised to see the "bread and butter" Camaro and Challenger come equipped with lower-level V8s probably sourced from their truck and SUV lineups.

Then again, Chevrolet and Dodge will probably also go crazy and build models to chase down the new SVT Shelby Cobra GT500... Dont be surprised if there are 450+HP Camaros running modified LS2s running around, and the same can be said of 425+HP Challengers as well. People love these cars, and they make up a large part of sales for the company.

You hit the nail on the head, GM and Dodge just might bypass competing with the Mustang GT and go straight for the GT500. And that would be thier mistake I would think. Ford really hit the bullseye with the new Mustang--the price for the V8 is rediculously low for that much power and fun. The price increase for the last generation and this one is about $1200-1500 or so...that's an incredible feat. More performance for about the same money. The V6 Camaro/Firebird might compete with the V6 Mustang but the V8's if in the $28k+ price range will put it out of Mustang GT territory--which would automatically allow the Mustang GT to win.

Also, I too would love to see the GTO stay--it has a more luxurious feeling than anything GM makes. I'd go so far as to say the GTO has a nicer interior than the Caddy CTS. But, it's time to move on and stop complaining about how much GM sucks for discontinuing the Monaro/GTO and pray that the next one will be better (yea right).

 

[kjb]

It is good to see the Camaro. I hope GM puts prices it around the same price as the Mustang.They can make the SS version to go against the Shelby.

 

[JohnBM01]

You're right, kjb. Sure love to see the Camaro/Mustang rivalry continue after the Mustang's been soaking up the spotlight in the Camaro's abscence.

 

[YSSMAN]

For the new Zeta-based Camaro

-"Base" Camaro (Most likely): 2.8L 210HP V6 from the Cadillac CTS. It will keep costs low as they could use bits and pieces allready available, and lets them use the 6M transmission out of the CTS. Although the engine is smaller than the 4.0L V6 in the Mustang, they make about the same ammount of power.
- "Base" Alt #1: 3.9L 240HP V6 from the Malibu, Impala, etc. There is an available 6M transmission, so thats a plus. But I belive the engine was developed for FWD only, but that can be changed.
- "Base" Alt #2: 3.6L 255HP V6 also from the Cadillac CTS and Buick LaCrosse. Although it makes much more power than the V6 Mustang, it would position the Camaro as an alternative to other V6 coupes like the 325ci, etc. But the 3.6L is EXPENSIVE, and I somewhat doubt that it will be the choise

* The V6 powerplant is probably what GM is worried most about. Considering that they will sell just as many V6 models as V8s, it is important for them to consider when building the car a few years from now.

-Z/28 #1: 5.3L vortec 5300 Flex-Fuel V8 320HP. Allready utilized in the Tahoe, and soon in the Silverado, Avalanche, etc. the engine is well known for a good ammount of power and pretty decent fuel economy. Using E85 will be a good move for GM, and the Camaro could become a Flex-Fuel flagship for the company. This would probably be one of the cheapest ways to make the Z/28 as there are so many of these engines built every year.
-Z/28 #2: 5.3L LS4 303HP. Baisicly the same design as the Vortec 5300, the LS4 is slightly smaller in overall size and uses an aluminum construction as opposed to iron for the Vortec. Used in the W-Body SS and GXP models, the engine is pretty powerfull and would be a good match to Ford's 4.6L V8 wich down about 3HP and 3lb-ft of torque.
-Z/28 #3: 5.0L V8 using the Vortec 5300 block and 4800 crank, thus creating a modern version of the infamous 302 V8. It probably wont happen, but I wouldnt put it past GM to build a 300HP high-rev V8 like what was in the origional '67 Z/28s.

*This is also debateable, but the safest bet will probably be the LS4 or Vortec. They can both be adapted to accept a 6M transmission, so we will see what happens.

-SS: 6.0L LS2 V8 400HP. You almost would have to be retarted to not see this one comming... Its easily the most adaptable and trasferable engine GM has in it's lineup, and you can be certain that the Camaro will have an option box with the LS2 listed.
- SS #2: A larger version of the 6.0L LS2, probably closer to a 6.6 or so. 400HP is not enough to chase down the Cobra, so more power is needed. GM is known for developing specialty versions of different engines for specific models, so again I wouldnt be surprised to see a modified version of the LS2 (similar to how the LS1 and LS6 were related) to push in the neighborhood of 450-475HP.

*Here is the problem: Does Chevrolet want to let the Camaro play with the "normal" Mustangs as well as take on the top-line Cobra? Or do they want the Corvette to handle that job?

- COPO 427 Camaro: 7.0L LS7 V8 505HP. Depending on how crazy Ford gets with the SVT Cobra (along with the rest of the specialty Mustangs), I wouldnt be surprised to see limited eddition COPO Camaros being made. They only built a couple hundred, maybe a thousand a year back in the late '60s, and they could easily do the same and turn a profit. The only problem is, the COPO Camaro could start stepping on the Corvette's toes, and that is something GM would not let happen anytime soon.

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-"Base" Dodge Challenger: 3.5L Magnum V6 250HP. The Dodge will need more power because of its is heavier platform than the Mustang and Camaro. Used currently in the rest of the LX cars, it can be assumed that the new LY platform that will replace them will be just as accepting to the current engines. The only problem is, Dodge no longer offers a manual with any of their V6-powered models... That may be a problem, and it may not

-Challenger R/T: 5.7L HEMI V8 340HP. It's Dodge's "bread-and-butter" V8 and can be easily adapted to the new LY platform. Again, more power would be needed to make the car as fast as the Mustang and Camaro, and the HEMI is the only V8 that has the "juice" to get it to do so. This may encourage DCX to develop a manual transmission option for the HEMI, so I'm all for it.

- Challenger SRT-8: 6.1L HEMI V8 425HP. Same as before, allready being used, easy to adapt, yadda yadda yadda. Makes good competition for the Camaro SS, but isnt enough for the Cobra.

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Of course, it is all speculation, but it makes sense...