The Role of Government

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Why do human beings need a government? What roles should government play? Why should the government play that role? What roles should the government not play? Why not?
 
Back when I was in college and the only real financial security I had was due to my parents, I was moving into a new apartment, which I did at least once a year. I couldn't get any telephone service turned on because I owed the telephone company money and couldn't pay. I was upset about it, and I misdirected my anger toward the phone company. I remember sitting in a coffee house writing in my journal about how unfair society was, how thinkgs like telephone service and electricity should be automatically provided in any dwelling. My rationale was that telephone service is a necessity of life for everybody, therefore everybody is entitled to it. I had some vague notion of a vast network of utility welfare where everybody had a phone no matter what; the government would pay for it. I knew at the time that I was describing what I then knew as communism, and would now call socialism, and it caused some cognitive dissonance, but my quasi-intellectual neediness clouded my ability to consider the issue in a more general way, beyond the fact that I did not pay my bill, that it was my choice to live beyond my means. I think about that inexperienced error in thiinking often nowadays, and when I see it in others it glows red and obvious.

The government should provide nothing more than the open space for individuals to find their own freedom. Government is incapable of "giving" freedom. Government should be comprised of volunteers, be grass-roots in nature, and a symptom of the culture from which it grew. Unfortunately contemporary governments are more in the business of employing professional politicians and imposing culture on localities who were doing fine on their own. The more local a government is the better. Federal governments are dubious.

The current trend in government, especially in Europe, is for politicians to make moral judgements and impose them on people who are not in agreement over them. The judgements are based on a distorted notion of "equality" interpreted as entitlement. All expectations that individuals are free to live in their chosen way, that these manifold and differing ways inherently cultivate competition and strife between groups and individuals, and that such strife is the engine of growth for our species, is being systematically eradicated from the culture. In its place is installed a convoluted, pity-centered system of sameness, a culture killing and excellence stifling system of misunderstood "equality" (a concept intended for numbers, not conscious beings). Any indication that one individual has surpassed any other individual in any way is frowned upon. Some equalizing method must be implemented. For example: "I didn't pay my phone bill so I have no phone. I spent my money on pot and girls instead. The government should supply everybody with a phone so I can spend my money on pot and girls."

Government should not be in the business of micromanaging. Government has a small number of uses such as defense and law enforcement. There are very few other instances where government can do any good. Government cannot engineer society. Government cannot control economies. These things, in the end, and whether government attempts to control them or not, are the result of individuals competing.

I am reminded of when W.S. Burroughs said "Control is controlled by its need to control." This seems to be the current trend. Comprehending this statement is what has turned me from an aspiring pity-based, self-righteoous social-moralist into an anti-government American. More and more I see examples of government sticking it's bloated head into peoples lives, meddling, interfering, and not helping anything but election results. More and more I see people who long to be patronized, who need to be controlled, and call such intervention in their lives "freedom". I am reminded of Neitzsche when he said "Ask not freedom from what, but freedom for what." The way people balk at this question is sad and frustrating.

What is the actual role of governemnt? To take money and spend it on stuff you'll either never even know about or don't approve of and to legislate and impose moral judgements on huge populations for whom they are either inappropriate, irrelevant, or downright offensive.

What is the ideal role of Government? To provide the environment which most allows it's people to thrive on their own.
 
The government should provide nothing more than the open space for individuals to find their own freedom. Government is incapable of "giving" freedom. Government should be comprised of volunteers, be grass-roots in nature, and a symptom of the culture from which it grew.

Excellent. Would you like to be a member of my cabinet when I run in 2016 for the role of President of the United States of America? (:

The goverment is in place to provide structure to a society. The society should maintain itself inside the structure which has been designed by the elected officals from the society.
 
Originally posted by milefile
"I didn't pay my phone bill so I have no phone. I spent my money on pot and girls instead. The government should supply everybody with a phone so I can spend my money on pot and girls."

Government should not be in the business of micromanaging. Government has a small number of uses such as defense and law enforcement. There are very few other instances where government can do any good. Government cannot engineer society. Government cannot control economies. These things, in the end, and whether government attempts to control them or not, are the result of individuals competing.

What is the actual role of governemnt? To take money and spend it on stuff you'll either never even know about or don't approve of and to legislate and impose moral judgements on huge populations for whom they are either inappropriate, irrelevant, or downright offensive.

What is the ideal role of Government? To provide the environment which most allows it's people to thrive on their own.
Before we begin, Yeah I spent a lot of mulla on chicks and dope. :D

Government is a form of micromanagement though. . . Reasoning being this, There are certain things needed in society today to be able to operate and perform essetial functions. Trading money, stocks, investments, power, communications, food, and resources. The government actually believe it or not does have control over these things.

The perfect example that I have for this is MCI in America. MCI was going downhill and about to crash. If MCI went bankrupt this would have severe effects on the communication train in the US. The government came into play and gave money to keep them a float. Looking at that example a few things happened there. Think Micromanagement. What does micromanagement do? Supposively steps in when something is screwed up. Apparently today though, our modern philsophy is "if it ain't broke, then take it a part, have some extra pieces and then something is broke." There is a "equalibrium" that the government is trying to control. Basically like micromanagement is used to control the way unders working for them. You then get the domino affect where once it starts falling down the hole it hits the bottom. In the MCI example I believe, someone correct me if I am wrong, but someone stepped in after the government and either bought out the company or they went under.

The Actual role of this questioned word "Government" is really simplistic in nature but complicated too much. They are to maintain. Like a farmer maintains his crops, sheperd maintains his flock, Mechanic maintains others cars and never his own. . . etc. But said government starts to think for itself with control and greed. Said government then invades and expands territory. Manifest Destiny is basically occurring on a daily basis under our ( the people's) knowledge. Corruption, Torture, Fear, WoMD, Chemicals, and Money hunger, those are the things driving government today over peace, tranquility, love, respect, the proverbial serenity promised as a child. Governments actual role, Government was invented so leaches can survive in this world and control mindless wastiods to exetreme lengths to do their bidding. It is not a bad thing, but you must know when to conform and when to resist. The real evil that is hiding behind the facade is Corporation

I will get into Corporation in a brief pause by our "Station Idetification". mainly speaking a smoke break :D
 
Originally posted by miata13B


I will get into Corporation in a brief pause by our "Station Idetification". mainly speaking a smoke break :D

Here's a little corporation stuff I wrote almost a year ago. I don't think I'd agree with all of it 100% now, but my sense of justice is essentially the same. It's been a year of change. A baby will do that to you.
 
I don't think I'd agree with all of it 100% now, but my sense of justice is essentially the same. It's been a year of change. A baby will do that to you.

That's good because a lot of it is incorrect. We should probably get into it on that thread but... you talk about the guy who buys all of the products that are advertised to him as a slave to the system, but he's no slave. He's just easily pursuaded. He still makes the choice in the end for what he buys and is therefor free.

Let me know if you want to get into it and we'll take it to the corporation thread. It got off topic at the end but we can put it back on track.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Here's a little corporation stuff I wrote almost a year ago. I don't think I'd agree with all of it 100% now, but my sense of justice is essentially the same. It's been a year of change. A baby will do that to you.
I certainly agree a baby will do that. Although I have gone over everything there I caught glimspes of it and will read through the rest of it throughout the day. . .

Now I have a theory that I have been projecting in my mind since seeing the original Matrix that has evolved sinc ethat day.

There are two variables in the function of the equation and that is who is the "evil". After watching the Matrix and its huge portrayl of Religon, The System, Govern, and Beliefs, we will see a huge war in our lifetime or our children will of the uprise of either -> The rebels (overthrowing government as we know it to bring forth a new Evolution of thinking, Corporation, and eventually the rise of the Machine. Fear Factory's CD 'Obselete', the Songs from the first to the last song, it describes a story of the rise of the Machine and taking over.

The Rebels, these are the modern day blue and white colalr tweakers that are repressed by the system and never being able to accel in life. Finally, the government places restrictions on this class of society that are so absurd that basically it starts a panic and a spread of a new epidemic -> an epidemic to survive. Overthrowing of the government finally occurs after martial law has been placed and taken out. Thus the new evolution in government with the rewritting of rules and regulations. . .

Finally, The Corporations which out of the three variables I have produced in this frugal mind seems the most likely. Corporations finally get the government grabbed by the balls and use them to rule through monpolization and brainwashing. . . Same issue with those that are "put-down" rising up against the corporatiojn to overthrow it. Think Robocop and OCP.

There area few minor details that really need to be worked out through these theories and I have only given the short short hand of it.
 
There area few minor details that really need to be worked out through these theories and I have only given the short short hand of it.

Which leaves two possible conclusions. Either you're not serious with that post, or you're completely insane.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Back when I was in college and the only real financial security I had was due to my parents, I was moving into a new apartment, which I did at least once a year. I couldn't get any telephone service turned on because I owed the telephone company money and couldn't pay. I was upset about it, and I misdirected my anger toward the phone company. I remember sitting in a coffee house writing in my journal about how unfair society was, how thinkgs like telephone service and electricity should be automatically provided in any dwelling. My rationale was that telephone service is a necessity of life for everybody, therefore everybody is entitled to it. I had some vague notion of a vast network of utility welfare where everybody had a phone no matter what; the government would pay for it. I knew at the time that I was describing what I then knew as communism, and would now call socialism, and it caused some cognitive dissonance, but my quasi-intellectual neediness clouded my ability to consider the issue in a more general way, beyond the fact that I did not pay my bill, that it was my choice to live beyond my means. I think about that inexperienced error in thiinking often nowadays, and when I see it in others it glows red and obvious.

The government should provide nothing more than the open space for individuals to find their own freedom. Government is incapable of "giving" freedom. Government should be comprised of volunteers, be grass-roots in nature, and a symptom of the culture from which it grew. Unfortunately contemporary governments are more in the business of employing professional politicians and imposing culture on localities who were doing fine on their own. The more local a government is the better. Federal governments are dubious.

The current trend in government, especially in Europe, is for politicians to make moral judgements and impose them on people who are not in agreement over them. The judgements are based on a distorted notion of "equality" interpreted as entitlement. All expectations that individuals are free to live in their chosen way, that these manifold and differing ways inherently cultivate competition and strife between groups and individuals, and that such strife is the engine of growth for our species, is being systematically eradicated from the culture. In its place is installed a convoluted, pity-centered system of sameness, a culture killing and excellence stifling system of misunderstood "equality" (a concept intended for numbers, not conscious beings). Any indication that one individual has surpassed any other individual in any way is frowned upon. Some equalizing method must be implemented. For example: "I didn't pay my phone bill so I have no phone. I spent my money on pot and girls instead. The government should supply everybody with a phone so I can spend my money on pot and girls."

Government should not be in the business of micromanaging. Government has a small number of uses such as defense and law enforcement. There are very few other instances where government can do any good. Government cannot engineer society. Government cannot control economies. These things, in the end, and whether government attempts to control them or not, are the result of individuals competing.

I am reminded of when W.S. Burroughs said "Control is controlled by its need to control." This seems to be the current trend. Comprehending this statement is what has turned me from an aspiring pity-based, self-righteoous social-moralist into an anti-government American. More and more I see examples of government sticking it's bloated head into peoples lives, meddling, interfering, and not helping anything but election results. More and more I see people who long to be patronized, who need to be controlled, and call such intervention in their lives "freedom". I am reminded of Neitzsche when he said "Ask not freedom from what, but freedom for what." The way people balk at this question is sad and frustrating.

What is the actual role of governemnt? To take money and spend it on stuff you'll either never even know about or don't approve of and to legislate and impose moral judgements on huge populations for whom they are either inappropriate, irrelevant, or downright offensive.

What is the ideal role of Government? To provide the environment which most allows it's people to thrive on their own.

That post deserves an award.

Where on Earth people got the notion that equality is defined by manipulating results despite how fair a person was in acquiring his higher status, I do not know. He, apparently, should be punished for the failings of others and society as a whole. It's one thing to argue entitlements are morally fairer, even necessary. But it's wrong to argue it makes things equal and fair at the same time, not when it's arguably slapping the U.S. Constitution by impeding the purpose of the pursuit of happiness, which for some is materialistic or comfort. We pursue what we feel we have earned the right to by laboring; it is our reward to ourselves. Entitlements=anti Pursuit of Happiness.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Which leaves two possible conclusions. Either you're not serious with that post, or you're completely insane.
There is some seriousness to it and some sarcasm of it. Legally speaking I also am insane, but that is a whole different topic. . . maybe make a thread on it. :odd:

It boils down to trying to outline a possible variable of how the world might turn in the future. I do believe that there is going to be a clash between Corporation and the modern day low level to mid level employee/ mid to low class family. The rich get richer and the poor get f-ed over and out. In American society laws are made to actually keep rich people rich and poor people poor, but it is all hidden behind the white lies. It sounds like a good idea at the time of the creations ofa new bill/law whatever you have it, but people don't read into what it actually does. It is a fact that too many mindless peons are brainwashed into believe something that will totally disrespect them will do them good. It is a fallacy, and a shame that people don't think for themselves.

I do have a few outlandish thoughts and wild imagination for a 24 year old, but don't judge just because I truly am not a person that looks down upon others, I just have an undertow demeanor sometimes.
 
In American society laws are made to actually keep rich people rich and poor people poor, but it is all hidden behind the white lies.

What laws? Where? How? Explain please.
 
Originally posted by danoff
What laws? Where? How? Explain please.
A number of tax laws are specifically written to make mid class and lower class people paying more money in taxes based off such things as income and property and sales taxes. Specifically in income tax returns you are given the ability to write off a number of items for business use and such. Now the more money you have to pay someone unless you are a CPA or whatever, the more they will work in getting you more money back which probably turns out to be more then you just paid someone to find these items. This is one method of "Work the system like the system works you" If I had another example of a law specifically written giving the richer Business and Corporation owners wealthy I would put it down now, but I don't have one up there currently.
 
We all need to educate ourselves in the tax code to get the most money back. I deduct all sorts of things, and I pay an accountant $75.00 to file for me. It's worth every penny.

Sales and property taxes are local.
 
An ignorance of options does not make a law unfair. Unfair would be intentionally keeping people ignorant by forcing them to take a great expense to learn of their options. If it is expensive, than it is unfair.
 
Specifically in income tax returns you are given the ability to write off a number of items for business use and such.

Totally backwards. The rich pay for the vast majority of the government, not just in dollars but in percent of thier income. The poor, on the other hand, in many cases pay nothing, or a tiny portion of thier income. That's why they don't mind asking for more entitlements - they know the rich will have to pay for it.

I believe that amounts to the rich getting screwed.
 
Hmmm, no takers on arguing that the rich aren’t screwed by our income tax laws?




The role of government....

Government should be involved as little as possible in people’s lives. The more involvement the less freedom. Since government is notorious at doing things inefficiently (because they have no competition) they should provide as few services as possible. Some things, however, are just so basic that they are required for a society to function.

Of course, as has already been pointed out, the government is supposed to provide for the common defense. It is also supposed to promote the general welfare, secure the blessings of liberty, insure domestic tranquility, and establish justice. Not in that order according to the preamble of the American Constitution, but there you have it. What the hell does that mean? Is anything missing?

I’ll take the easiest ones first…

Provide for the common defense

Of course individuals and corporations aren’t going to amass an army to defend the country. If they did they would have the ability to force the American people to give up huge amounts of money to keep them doing their job. This would undermine freedom and therefore must be a role of government.

Establish Justice

Another function of government is to enforce laws. Make sure that people act within certain bounds of civility, enforce contracts, prevent stealing and so on. Without this basic function society would be chaotic and no productivity would occur resulting in a country that is easily taken over by its neighbors for its natural resources.

This one begs the question “what is justice?” Whatever the definition is, the longer and more complex it gets, the more government has to get involved with the day-to-day affairs of its citizens. This results in less freedom, which leads me to my next point.

Secure the Blessings of Liberty

A free society is a happy society. People like to be their own masters. They like to make their own decisions (usually) and they like to have control over their lives. It’s natural instinct. Since we were monkeys we’ve had a basic Darwinian instinct instilled in our subconscious that makes us horde up supplies, creatively solve problems, and take control of situations. Without that instinct we would have died long ago. So freedom is essential for society. Socialism and Communism ask man to go against his instincts and work as a collective rather than an individual. This cannot survive because Man cannot fight tens of thousands of years of evolution. Rand has done some thought experiments in her books that show just exactly how the concept of doing things for the collective breaks down in the end. She effectively argues this point, much more effectively than I do. So if you don’t get this one I recommend that you read her books. The result of this discussion back when America was founded was this notion that liberty must be preserved. And so here it is - one of the functions of government.

Insure Domestic Tranquility

This one is really fuzzy. It sounds to me like “prevent civil unrest”. I think that was the motivator here because when the American colonies were breaking away from England and wrote this, England was doing nothing to tranquilize the civil unrest in the Colonies. The conclusion from this one was to establish a representative government that would be forced to be responsive to the demands of the people – and I’m going to call that a basic function of government – to represent the people.

Promote the General Welfare

Whereas most people might think that this one means hand out freebies like health care, homeless shelters, and drug rehab centers, this one really means establish capitalism (whereas those other things would fall under the category of stuff the government should stay out of). I could write volumes about how this works but others have already written it so I’m going to keep this one short. The evidence that capitalism promotes the general welfare can be seen in the progress of America since its founding. We went from being an ant among Giants to the world’s last remaining superpower in relatively short order. Why does our economy drive the world? Free trade. Our founding fathers knew it well and that’s why our economic system is the powerhouse that it is.


Far be it from me to conflict with our founding fathers, but there is one more that I think I should cautiously throw into the mix.

Research and Explore

This one kinda falls under the category of “provide for the common defense” since research and exploration have military implications and the military can’t always wait for capitalism to provide it (and the rest of the world) with the latest technology. This includes space travel and some medical research. Medical research is also key because you can’t have a plague wiping out your population right? Once again, if everyone were faced with death-by-plague but there was a corporation out there that had the cure, they could blackmail the population.


So that about sums it up for me. The rest is excess, a big waste of money, and usually a dismal failure from the get go. Things like health care benefits, public schools, welfare, farm subsidies, low income housing, etc. are all dismal failures, unnecessary and a huge waste of cash.

So that’s it, in short, the government should protect your freedom and you take care of (and are responsible for) the rest.
 
Originally posted by miata13B
A number of tax laws are specifically written to make mid class and lower class people paying more money in taxes based off such things as income and property and sales taxes. Specifically in income tax returns you are given the ability to write off a number of items for business use and such. Now the more money you have to pay someone unless you are a CPA or whatever, the more they will work in getting you more money back which probably turns out to be more then you just paid someone to find these items. This is one method of "Work the system like the system works you" If I had another example of a law specifically written giving the richer Business and Corporation owners wealthy I would put it down now, but I don't have one up there currently.
This is absoultely, totally, and completely incorrect. Pure, unadulterated, liberal propoganda.

The thing to remember is that the US has a so-called "progressive" income tax, meaning the more you make, the harder you get boned by your tax rates. So you are doubly penalized for doing well, since not only are you paying more taxes in terms of raw dollars by virtue of your larger income, but you're paying a higher percentage rate as well. This is supposedly because rich people don't need their money as much as poor people, and $1 means much more to a poor person that $1 means to a rich person.

$1 does mean more to someone making $15,000/year than $1 dollar does to someone making $100,000/year. That much is true. $1 to the poor person means about the same as $7 to the rich person, which is how the taxes should relate under a fair, flat-rate tax system.

Because we make a little more than $100,000 a year together, we are in the 34% Federal tax bracket. If we made $15,000 a year, we'd be in the 0% tax bracket, but for the sake of argument, we'll call it 1%. So despite making about 7 times as much money, we pay about 34 times as much in taxes. We don't require 34 times as much defense, we don't take 34 times as many books out of the library, and our cars are not 34 times as hard on the roads, and our kids certainly don't get the benefit of 34 times as much education.

How can that possibly be considered "fair" in any way? If you think that I can possibly find a way to write off enough income to even get near the lower tax rate, then you've never actually looked at a tax form. There's just no way.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
This is absoultely, totally, and completely incorrect. Pure, unadulterated, liberal propoganda.
Yes it is. I will definately admit I have Liberal views on a lot of things that I see. I will also admit my knowledge of this topic is far from being anywhere near correct too. I know that I have strong personal beliefs about the way a government should and shouldn't operate and I think I let that get into this discussion.

Danoff - - Yeah I sound like an anti-government hater, but I am trying to come up with facts to support my arguement. I picked this thread for the fact I want to learn more about the government and I figure if I pick a side and try ot debate it, I will definately learn about it. Give me sometimes and research and I will return defending my statements.

Neon - - Yeah I am a Liberal hot-headed egotistical bstard :D But let me research and argue my point. I look back at that post and it totally went the wrong way in which I was trying to post. Like I said before I am still learning about this subject and I think this would be the best way to do it. So if I say something that is totally nonsense, call me on it :D There is nothing wrong in trying to correct me, but not like I did, try to involve fact over personal belief. I know you have always been an excellent fact finder so I do pay attention to what you have to say. I will back off with my personal beliefs in this debate too :D
 
Give me sometimes and research and I will return defending my statements.

Sounds good. You're exactly the kind of person I want to talk to. I look forward to the results of your research.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Sounds good. You're exactly the kind of person I want to talk to. I look forward to the results of your research.
Thanks man, I make an arse out myself but it is in a process to learn. . . here check this out I found it while I started my research. . . http://gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=35758

If you know of any good links btw I would much enjoy them :D
 
Originally posted by danoff
These guys are a good source of information.

www.cato.org
Ok I have gotten into the Tax section of Cato.org now. I am reading about corporate taxing, income tax and reforming the laws. The first notable thing that I found is that there has been a major increase in taxing laws that complicate everything. . . But that is not where I want this to go. . . I truly want to know where the tax money goes. . . Do these taxes go directly into maintenance, military and government sactioned bodies? Do we have missing money from it? and what about our federal Debt???

here are a few links of what I started to read

http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-053es.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-415es.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-416es.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-431es.html
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-484es.html
 
here are a few links of what I started to read

Yea, all that stuff looks good. You're not going to find much on Cato that I disagree with. If you do, though, you'll put me in a tough place, so good luck to you.

I'll see if there isn't something else I can find, but I highly recommend cato for all kinds of good analysis of different topics. These guys make fantastic arguments no matter what the topic is.

I was amazed at how strong (even though wrong) their argument was for not going to war with Iraq.
 
Originally posted by danoff
Sounds good. You're exactly the kind of person I want to talk to. I look forward to the results of your research.
Me too! I don't mean to be an ass either. We're all here to learn!
 

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