The Rumble Strip - Misleading?

[Dragonistic]

This was brought to my attention after seeing a recently opened thread closed with the following statement.

And there is a reason that it is only in the Premium section. This will just degenerate into a general chat thread. Locking.

Now, firstly I'd like to state that whether this particular thread justified a lock or not is up for debate, one which I am having currently with the moderator in question and I am chasing up the specific reasons and justifications which will put my mind at ease on that matter.

Back to the point, the current Rumble Strip description currently reads:

Off-topic chit chat with no general subject.

Many regular members will be aware of the general rules of what is and isn't allowed in the strip, but this comes about through experience and historical examples not through the description which appears to mislead.

Why? Because as in the example above, the thread is closed for the reason or the possibility of turning into a general chat yet the rumble strip says very specifically the exact words, chat with no general subject. Similarly, threads in the rumble strip are often, or perhaps more specifically posters, told to stay on topic in some of these more general threads and yet the very first part of the description for the rumble strip are the words 'off-topic'.

This can be particularly problematic for newer members who haven't learn the ways, they'll read that and think the randomness goes in there which are often found in other forums and such, there are similarly examples of this such as this thread. Although this thread was not closed in the 12 or so hours of it's activity, and I think many of us would question why (I mean we can't exactly announce every new member in a new thread can we, even if they don't get banned instantly).

That said, an thread which was of an introduce yourself, although was labelled as a general chat in title, which was brought to my attention was closed which suggests it's ok to introduce your friend with a silly name in it's own thread, but one which appear to be made to introduce each other was not.

Again, I do not think chat threads should exist designed to have no particular topic, but my 2 points coming out are that:
1) The Rumble Strip description needs some kind of update to get more in-tune with whats actually allowed inside
2) Some consistency brought in to certain moderation decisions, they appear inconsistent with other decisions when a general chat thread is locked, then similar examples of useless threads general in nature are not. If general threads aren't allowed in the rumble strip, they should all be locked not just some or similarly they should all be open.

I know through private discussion with peers on GTP, who I will not name, that I am not alone in this view. This is the first time I've really had a complaint about what is an excellent forum but I am prepared to wager my reputation to try and bring some change at least in point 1).

Side note: As usual with my more serious of posts I apologise if my wording has become confusing, it's a trait I often carry.

 

[HACKr]

God...

We used to have avatar and sig rating threads, different forum games, etc... I remember lurking long before I joined and noted the amount of tomfoolery, yet it wasn't chaotic. I guess you have to pay nowadays to get that here.

 

[Duke]

This is the first time I've really had a complaint about what is an excellent forum but I am prepared to wager my reputation to try and bring some change at least in point 1).

We're always glad for feedback, which is why this forum exists. We're also open to discussion of moderator actions. It appears you have taken this up with the mod in question, which is fine. If that is not resolved, please feel free to contact Jordan, Der Alta, or me.

We used to have avatar and sig rating threads, different forum games, etc... I remember lurking long before I joined and noted the amount of tomfoolery, yet it wasn't chaotic. I guess you have to pay nowadays to get that here.

It's not so much a matter of "having to pay" as it is a matter of keeping a handle on a forum that is at least 4 times the size it was in those days. We are one of the largest 500 forums in the world on any subject, and in order to avoid disappearing down the vortex like, well, VWvortex for instance, we simply have to tolerate less tomfoolery.

 

[Dragonistic]

We're always glad for feedback, which is why this forum exists. We're also open to discussion of moderator actions. It appears you have taken this up with the mod in question, which is fine. If that is not resolved, please feel free to contact Jordan, Der Alta, or me.

I have indeed taken this up with the mod in question, via the medium of his profile page, and then I made the decision to offer the opportunity to continue the discussion in private (I soon intend to delete the profile page stuff if that mod has done the same on his own page now I have archived it). I have full faith in the moderation staff and don't mean to try to put a bad name to them at all and perhaps the inconsistency is infact caused by different moderators views but I haven't gone into it that far.

I will be sure to contact one of the big three if need be but I believe I have already at least raised some awareness which may or may not cause a change in behaviour. The debate is remaining very adult and relevant in my eyes though so no need for that kind of action yet!

@HACKr
Thats not really the point I am getting at here, although this is one of the issues I have raised in the personal debate going on between myself and moderator X as regarding some consistency in the way of similar threads in different places being treated differently, as a Premium member myself it looks bad and creates a bit of a bad image when very similar threads are given special exceptions on the Premo section. That said, I understand the rumble strip is harder to maintain but the particular thread which was locked in my first example wasn't really given a fair shot in my eyes, again something I have raised already in private discussion.

 

[ExigeEvan]

As much as I now hate to admit it (wiser with age perhaps)...


... The convo thread brough no benefit to the rest of the forums.

So yes, perhaps the rumble strip needs updating, but don't change the way this place is moderated. I've been here over 6 years now (damn) and I still come back, despite the fact I don't play GT and that I know of other forums that meet my interests better (but also are out of control, bodybuilding.com at times).

 

[Dragonistic]

As much as I now hate to admit it (wiser with age perhaps)...


... The convo thread brough no benefit to the rest of the forums.

So yes, perhaps the rumble strip needs updating, but don't change the way this place is moderated. I've been here over 6 years now (damn) and I still come back, despite the fact I don't play GT and that I know of other forums that meet my interests better (but also are out of control, bodybuilding.com at times).

This is kind of what I'm looking for, I'm not saying chat threads should get the green light, but more of them are lock worthy and some of them aren't intended as chat threads but not given the chance to head down the slippery slope to nothingness but are locked on a prediction when there is no identical historical example. Similar examples are all well and good, but the most similar in particular relation to the original example is an thread of identical aims in a differen't location which has been allowed to live on.

Yet again though I'm not trying to dive into the premium V regular discussion at this point, thats what I'm currently doing in private.

 

[HACKr]

It's not so much a matter of "having to pay" as it is a matter of keeping a handle on a forum that is at least 4 times the size it was in those days. We are one of the largest 500 forums in the world on any subject, and in order to avoid disappearing down the vortex like, well, VWvortex for instance, we simply have to tolerate less tomfoolery.

With great forum size comes great responsibility, eh? I wasn't completely aware GTP was this big. I guess I was just venting a bit, you know, kinda miss the days gone by that I wish I was more of a part of.

I do appreciate the satisfactory, reasonable, and respectful answer, Duke. Keep up the good work.

 

[Coxis]

We are one of the largest 500 forums in the world on any subject

Wow that is actually very interesting... Is there like an official list of these forums or something? I'd love to take a look at it, pretty much the only other forum bigger than this one that I know is 4chan (which is pretty much chaos in the flesh).

 

[Legendary]

I found it slightly annoying that the thread got locked within it's first minute or so, I would have liked to see how it went. After a page or so we could see how the thread was travelling and if it was worth a lock or not, us as members of GTP are not stupid, if our threads go out of control we can ask you to lock it or you can step in and do it. Lots of other threads get to at least 15 posts before a moderator either finds it or stops it. I would have just liked it to have a decent chance. I found locking it immediately something to do with perhaps me aswell. I know I wasnt the best member of GTP when I was younger, over the last year I have changed and I feel that maybe you still hold it against me. I dont know, if the moderator in question could please step in and explain that would be appreciated.

 

[Jordan]

1) The Rumble Strip description needs some kind of update to get more in-tune with whats actually allowed inside.

The Rumble Strip, as a forum, has no general subject, and the threads it contains are "off-topic" in relation to the rest of the board. I understand your issue with the ambiguity of the term "chit chat", though I don't buy the argument of confusion, given the fact that no-one has cited the forum description before when defending their rationale of a monolithic chat thread. I'm not going to debate pedantry, however, and will change the description if it makes you more comfortable.

2) Some consistency brought in to certain moderation decisions, they appear inconsistent with other decisions when a general chat thread is locked, then similar examples of useless threads general in nature are not. If general threads aren't allowed in the rumble strip, they should all be locked not just some or similarly they should all be open.

You are basically asking why an "Announcements" thread is allowed in the Premium forum but not in the Rumble Strip, correct? The answer, of course, is that some threads simply "work" in a sub-community of limited size - that's the reason I provide a private forum for you guys. As you have already agreed, "chit chat" threads simply don't work in a public community of this size. Only a more intimate setting where all participants know and agree on the appropriate boundaries can successfully host such a discussion. That's why it used to work back when the site was smaller, but not anymore - I learned my lesson about that the hard way, many years ago.

Wow that is actually very interesting... Is there like an official list of these forums or something? I'd love to take a look at it, pretty much the only other forum bigger than this one that I know is 4chan (which is pretty much chaos in the flesh).

It's here, though the "rankings" always fluctuate. We're currently listed as the 555th largest.

 

[Spock]

Its much easier to have a bit more leniency towards what type of threads are ok in a private forum with 200-300 members (100% guess) with access, rather than a forum open to every member (all 130,000+).

 

[Wenders]

This is kind of what I'm looking for, I'm not saying chat threads should get the green light, but more of them are lock worthy and some of them aren't intended as chat threads but not given the chance to head down the slippery slope to nothingness but are locked on a prediction when there is no identical historical example. Similar examples are all well and good, but the most similar in particular relation to the original example is an thread of identical aims in a differen't location which has been allowed to live on.

Yet again though I'm not trying to dive into the premium V regular discussion at this point, thats what I'm currently doing in private.

The announcement thread in the premo forum is probably the "identical historical example" you are referring to. It does on times go off topic and head towards the 'general chat' type thread but with the number of members posting in it it is a lot easier to control and bring back on topic. You have the same thread in an open forum and it will end up off topic very quickly.

You also must remember that the premium forum is there to provide something a lttle different for the paying members.

 

[Duke]

It's here, though the "rankings" always fluctuate. We're currently listed as the 555th largest.

Ah, sorry for the misinformation. Last I checked we were 479th or so.

 

[Dragonistic]

The Rumble Strip, as a forum, has no general subject, and the threads it contains are "off-topic" in relation to the rest of the board. I understand your issue with the ambiguity of the term "chit chat", though I don't buy the argument of confusion, given the fact that no-one has cited the forum description before when defending their rationale of a monolithic chat thread. I'm not going to debate pedantry, however, and will change the description if it makes you more comfortable.

Honestly? It would make myself personally feel more comfortable but there is no need to act purely on my opinion. The announcement thread in question was largely my doing as I communicated with the creator through IM services as to where to make our little announcement, the premium thread seemed to lead by example as something which was acceptable and although I had some doubts I thought it would at least have some chance of proving itself if indeed it did head down the slope to pointlessness. The simple reason that it could confuse and in this case did to an extent as neither myself nor peer wanted a whole new thread purely to state our milestone posts. I'm sure, through virtue of a suggestions thread and poll, that the good people at GTP could come up with a description which avoids those words which are the same words used as reasons for closing threads. I was very confused when our thread was closed for the reason given in the post as my thoughts instantly went to other threads and then the section description. I feel a more detailed explanation should have been given from the start rather then leaving me with half the story and having to go chase the rest myself whether I would agree or not.

You are basically asking why an "Announcements" thread is allowed in the Premium forum but not in the Rumble Strip, correct? The answer, of course, is that some threads simply "work" in a sub-community of limited size - that's the reason I provide a private forum for you guys. As you have already agreed, "chit chat" threads simply don't work in a public community of this size. Only a more intimate setting where all participants know and agree on the appropriate boundaries can successfully host such a discussion. That's why it used to work back when the site was smaller, but not anymore - I learned my lesson about that the hard way, many years ago.

I am not as such asking why premo yes and rumble strip no, I am asking more for evidence which solidly proves the way this particular thread would go to nothing. It was simply a prediction which resulted in closure as there was no previous example that was identical, the only similar example that came to mind was the premium thread which made me wonder why this premium version was ok and the rumble strip one wasn't when the only content contained within the rumble strip version were I believe 2 fair little announcements which didn't need an entire thread each or indeed even together, not in the eyes of the 2 making the announcements at least. To quote moderator X.

If you have an announcement, make a thread about it, and let it stand, or fall, on it's own.

Now, although we made a thread for other announcements to be made, there was simply not enough time given for the thread to stand or fall, I've quoted the entire sentence rather then bend it to my advantage as X is referring to making a thread solely for the single announcement in this case but I believe it should apply to all threads. It seemed unfair, very unfair, to close it so quickly when the content thus far was appropriate, bang on the topic given.


Note: The below paragraph may be considered more worthy of private communication with staff then publicly as it is possible to trace back to X and indeed many may be aware already of who I am referring to and I wish not to tarnish any reputations be it my own or X. Remove if this is considered in this manner and I will be glad to continue this particular section in private with staff.

I was then actually insulted to see X in the premium version of the thread, who had previously posted an announcement in it, continue a tangent which was leading from a joke, then a joke from the joke, then in this particular case X posts simply a youtube video and little else in response to the side jokes made rather then the original announcement. I'm not saying this is wrong, but surely this is the kind of generalness that would appear in the rumble strip version as well. I was very angered and upset about this particularly as I'd been informed that X does not agree with general chattish style threads (a shared opinion amongst other moderators and staff) to then see the same person contributing to the closest example of the thread which was closed in a general manner. This felt to me as the biggest inconsistency involving moderator decisions and I was more angered when I was not even given any kind of apology upon mentioned my dis-taste of the actions during communication, I would have expected at least a 'sorry you feel that way, but' or words to the effect of, as I would suspect all staff to be acting in the interest of keeping members happy. X did explain the reason for posting in this manner, that they post as a user not as a moderator when not moderating. A reasonable reason in theory but in reality it appears hypocritical to post in a manner which I was told X disagreed with in a thread which I was also told as the kind of thread they did not agree with, specifically those which often turn or could turn into general banter.

EDIT: I am also very aware of the job of maintainence on a small scale being much easier, but the lock button is just as easy to hit on page 2 as in post 3 is it not? Also I never claimed the Premium version to be an identical historical example, I claimed it to be most similar and at first glance you can't blame me, you're simply twisting my words. I use it as a reference as there is no evidence that the rumble strip version would be more off topic in content quality although it may be in content quantity but this is simply not proven as we know not who would have posted in it, we know who could have not who would have.

 

[DRIFT4EVA]

As much as I now hate to admit it (wiser with age perhaps)...


... The convo thread brough no benefit to the rest of the forums.

The days of "The Colour Blue" ahhhhhh lol

 

[Jetboy.]

I think it would pan out for the worse. Like aforementioned, in the Private section more can be handled with all of maybe 200 members (And more like 30 regulars) posting in there. In a whole-board free-for-all, it would just end in shambles, with people constantly arguing or stepping on top of one another. The Import Thread (which is what I'm basing my theory on) can hardly function without moderator intervention, much less a thread with a free-form base. Please don't take my opinion as a personal attack on your ideals, but for being registered here nearly six years (And lurking two or three more before that), I witnessed the rise and fall of the Convo Forum and similar "clubs" of off-topic banter. I just feel that, though the moderator in question should have voiced his explanation better, he was still correct in his action.



Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Dragonistic]

I think it would pan out for the worse. Like aforementioned, in the Private section more can be handled with all of maybe 200 members (And more like 30 regulars) posting in there. In a whole-board free-for-all, it would just end in shambles, with people constantly arguing or stepping on top of one another. The Import Thread (which is what I'm basing my theory on) can hardly function without moderator intervention, much less a thread with a free-form base. Please don't take my opinion as a personal attack on your ideals, but for being registered here nearly six years (And lurking two or three more before that), I witnessed the rise and fall of the Convo Forum and similar "clubs" of off-topic banter. I just feel that, though the moderator in question should have voiced his explanation better, he was still correct in his action.



Cheers,
Jetboy

Again, I'm not arguing for the thread to be opened, more that other threads of less quality from the OP, even from the title, are being closed and that this particular one was closed whilst it was still relevant. No offence taken, it just appears inconsistent rather then straight up wrong if that makes sense?

 

[Diego440]

The days of "The Colour Blue" ahhhhhh lol

You know, everytime someone mentions something about how bad it is to chit-chat on GTP or anything else, there's always someone talking about The Colour Blue thread... get over it! It was an annoying thread and a mindboggle to follow. I'm glad it's dead, I really am.

 

[Jordan]

I was very confused when our thread was closed for the reason given in the post as my thoughts instantly went to other threads and then the section description.

What, specifically, are the other threads which came to your mind?

I am asking more for evidence which solidly proves the way this particular thread would go to nothing.

Yes, it could have turned into a wonderful thread, or it could have become quite a stinker. That's all completely hypothetical, and there is no way for any of us to know what would have happened. I'm simply drawing on my experience and what I have learned from the multitude of intentionally ambiguous threads which have been created here. Daan was just enforcing this policy for me.

I am also very aware of the job of maintainence on a small scale being much easier, but the lock button is just as easy to hit on page 2 as in post 3 is it not?

No, it is not. Even here, today, I am still ultimately defending my decision to close "How Many Replies Can We Get?" and limit monolithic chat threads. How different would this community be had I closed it on page 5 instead of page 5527?

 

[Jetboy.]

Again, I'm not arguing for the thread to be opened, more that other threads of less quality from the OP, even from the title, are being closed and that this particular one was closed whilst it was still relevant. No offence taken, it just appears inconsistent rather then straight up wrong if that makes sense?

I understand how you feel. It's just that the potential for it to go bad far outweighs then the potential for it to remain on track. Consider it pre-emptive damage control (or at least that's how I'm reading the actions.).

No, it is not. Even here, today, I am still ultimately defending my decision to close "How Many Replies Can We Get?" and limit monolithic chat threads. How different would this community be had I closed it on page 5 instead of page 5527?

Holy crap, I can remember that. I have been here a long time.



Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Dragonistic]

What, specifically, are the other threads which came to your mind?

The premium announcements for one and then threads such as this google your post count thread which appears to be somewhat of a similar thread to announcements in the sense that some will come up geniunely interesting, such as I got one with a rather big coincidence when I did it, and another post I made in the same thread high-lighted a stereotype of google imaging anything. This was a thread with some quality amongst some relative pointlessness like a picture of some electrical equipment (which seems common when googling a 4 digit number) which sparked absolute zero interest.

Then there's this which I referred to in conversation with Daan (who I feel I can name now as you have) which got more of a chance then our announcements thread and is of no real subject from the OP.

This also didn't seem thread worthy but it stands, I was told that these last 2 examples are pointless to close because they're dead, yet at some point they sat top of the pile to be allowed to die, a chance which the announcements thread was not given.

Yes, it could have turned into a wonderful thread, or it could have become quite a stinker. That's all completely hypothetical, and there is no way for any of us to know what would have happened. I'm simply drawing on my experience and what I have learned from the multitude of intentionally ambiguous threads which have been created here. Daan was just enforcing this policy for me.

As above, the examples of pretty dry threads of little subject matter, or with few and far between quality posts (I'll even admit my own work was not of the best quality in the first example), these threads all got there chance even when in particular the latter 2 were destined to either die or be rubbish from the start but they were given the chance to do either. That said, I believe the keyword above is intentional, there was no such intention with the announcement thread, we are again going on the possibility that other members could have ruined it, not would have. Such threads as the How Many Replies can we get are clearly intentional rubbish, as are those which are labelled as chat threads which Daan later refered to me.

No, it is not. Even here, today, I am still ultimately defending my decision to close "How Many Replies Can We Get?" and limit monolithic chat threads. How different would this community be had I closed it on page 5 instead of page 5527?

Are you seriously comparing a thread which lasted over 100,000 replies and was clearly of absolute zero subject matter to one which had 2 posts and was still relevant at closure? It seems a bit extreme to make such a comparison, for a kick off I suspect nobody would have protested this particular thread in question if it had been locked on page 2, or even late on page 1 because I wouldn't have and it's me who's raised the issue. It's worked in much the opposite direction in this case in the sense of ease of maintaining it. A close after a page would have resulted in myself not going searching for answers, not having noticed the ambiguous nature of the description, not have having a lengthy debate with Daan and not have creating this thread. I doubt suddenly more people would have complained if it was closed on page 2 after the rubbish had begun then the way it was closed almost instantly. If the thread was given it's chance Daans reason would have been very clear, it would have been that the thread had degenerated into general rubbish, not it will. By then the thread would have gained no attached regular posters like the How Many Replies, and like what would happen should the Imports Thread go down. They have regular posters, lots of them, who have posted pages and pages.

You just said yourself how different would it be if it the Replies thread was closed on 5, and correctly so, page 5, I ask the same question, how different would it have been if the announcement thread was closed on page 5? It would have proven itself as rubbish if Daans assumption was correct most likely, or at least made suggestions towards, and have left no doubts in my mind removing any extra maintaining and hassle which I alone have now caused for more then one staff member.

Similarly, it would have possibly shown some of it's potential to be valid if Daans assumption was wrong, potential which I think we can all spot is not there in the How Many Replies thread on page 5 or 5527.

@ Jetboy

Perhaps the potential for failure does outweigh the potential for success, but that wasn't the reason given, we were told it will degenerate not even it might and to limit damage it has been closed. However, those potentials could have been given a page or 2 to give some substance to prove the point rather then an absolute pure prediction which was presented as fact over a prediction based off at least some evidence.

EDIT: I notice a small change has been made but as it stands it's still claiming no general subject and off-topic. Each thread which rightfully stands has a subject, from funny videos to amazing or cool photos to someones birthday, none have no general subject and none are allowed to go to far off topic. I feel using discussion over chit chat is an improvement though but put in the same situation I was present with, I'd still be wondering why a thread is being closed for the potential to turn into general chat, or you could easily say general discussion. I've been given a better description during the exchanges made so far, it's a place for things which don't belong elsewhere, so something along the lines of 'Discussion of general subjects', or words to the effect of, feels more appropriate without having a reasonably long explanation. The subjects in the strip are pretty general and not exactly the most serious things on the Planet, but a subject still exists, and venturing off topic from that subject to far results in closure (rightfully so) or at least verbal warnings.

 

[Jetboy.]

@ Jetboy

Perhaps the potential for failure does outweigh the potential for success, but that wasn't the reason given, we were told it will degenerate not even it might and to limit damage it has been closed. However, those potentials could have been given a page or 2 to give some substance to prove the point rather then an absolute pure prediction which was presented as fact over a prediction based off at least some evidence.

*nods* Completely understood, I'm just sympathizing with both sides here. As I said before..

...the moderator in question should have voiced his explanation better...

. Yes, it is taken out of context, I know, but I still feel this is correct.

We're you slighted in the chance of your thread coming to fruition? I feel so. But I also feel there is sound reason.

Also as aforementioned, I feel that this is simply damage control. The last thing this board needs is another lollerpalooza. You even sourced separate threads that even in having a singular purpose, have dropped into inane drivel. I'm not condemning your thread to this immediately, but... The decisions are made on paterns made previously. It's a crap deal on both sides.



Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Dragonistic]

*nods* Completely understood, I'm just sympathizing with both sides here. As I said before..
. Yes, it is taken out of context, I know, but I still feel this is correct.

We're you slighted in the chance of your thread coming to fruition? I feel so. But I also feel there is sound reason.

Also as aforementioned, I feel that this is simply damage control. The last thing this board needs is another lollerpalooza. You even sourced separate threads that even in having a singular purpose, have dropped into inane drivel. I'm not condemning your thread to this immediately, but... The decisions are made on paterns made previously. It's a crap deal on both sides.



Cheers,
Jetboy

I simply think that we shouldn't go on 'could' as a reason when it only involves a small effort, a simple page or so, to get a feel and get more of a 'would' or 'has'. I highly doubt that if say 3 pages were posted, then closure was deemed neccessary, anyone would make a big deal about it being closed like I have.

Of course I am a little more sour, or I was at first, as it was 'my' thread in particular although I didn't create I was involved in the process of. That said, I'm not one to hold a grudge, I didn't go looking for answers to get the thread re-opened, the thought just occured to me as regards the description and other seemingly meaningless threads which had zero potential being allowed to stay open when this particular thread had some potential as proven by the premium thread and those announcements being made in their own thread. Although a one thread fits all is not ideal, there was no intention to force every announcement in there and people could continue to make seperate threads if they wanted as has been done previously.

That said, some people like myself in this case don't feel like an entire thread is needed for one particular announcement. Perhaps earlier on my membership I would have, but now until well today really I've never felt the need create barely any threads at all, particularly based around myself, as I'm simply not one to share any real news in it's own thread as I don't feel like I have enough reason to. I don't see myself as someone who's 'well known' on GTP and similarly I don't know all that many of you that well who I don't talk to outside of GTP so I like to use announcements threads and in this case a non-premium friend shared the same announcement but neither of us feel the need to dedicate a thread to ourselves. I've since been told that the way to do it from now on is make it's own thread (or use the premo whilst I can) which means I probably won't at all as those few I do know to some extent on GTP and not other places aren't all premiums, minority are, and I don't want to dedicate threads to myself. This is my personal preference and not a complaint, this is simply my reasons for suggesting the thread.

However, I don't think even if I create a thread that it is 'mine' I think it's a thread for us all, and thats what it is, I don't own it and I don't have rights to control it. Thats not what I'm trying to do, I want to remove future confusion caused by the description so nobody has my experience, and I want a more clear explanation of why the thread was closed instantly when others of lower or similar quality had more chance and often weren't closed at all. History has indeed taught us threads can become rubbish, even those which aren't intended without meaning, but we can't operate by using the past as a basis for all.

This is similar to the recent debate I had over whether Judges make law, they claim they do not and often refer to previous cases, but when a brand new case comes about which has only some relation to other cases, there is no choice but to deal with the factors presented in the new case and come to a different decision or possibly the same one. The new factors must be taken into account as well. I believe the factors involved with this thread are there is a subject, it is not completely general like the replies thread, or a chat thread. The subject is valid as proven by the premium version and we are making the assumption here that because of other rumble strip threads it will fail. That said, I've not been shown an example of the exact details involved here, we have a subject with potential that is being lumped in with those which don't as it stands. There are perhaps other examples of threads with potential which went down, but they had to have time to go down and what I really want to see is an announcements thread from the rumble strip in the past. If there isn't one I'm afraid it's highly unlikely that I'm going to move on this without some serious convincing as I think it's fair that a thread which hasn't been tried before and isn't complete rubbish from the start deserves a chance. If this thread would walk a tight rope along the AUP like something like a rumble strip babes thread would, I can see good reason for closure due to damage limitation from the start, but I doubt anyone in their right mind is going to suffer infractions from this particular announcements thread.

To summarise, I will agree to the closure of this thread if the same thread has been created before or has failed elsewhere on GTP. I'm not seeing a strong enough argument which confirms the fact presented to me that it will go down hill as I was told and I see only speculation which can't be proved without giving the thread a trial run. Without a previous announcement thread failure I am very unlikely to budge on that matter though as I feel it unfair to compare to all these threads which begin as rubbish like general chats and how many replies, more threads showing closures from reasonable topics are better but still not the same and the fact I haven't been presented with one yet leads me to believe it's not happening. The Imports thread is close in ways, but it's a thread which is bound to cause conflict which resulted to the petty childishness whereas I can't see someone arguing with me for reaching 3000 posts, or someone else getting engaged.

The description though I feels needs a change to remove the possibility of confusion, perhaps you'd call it damage limitation with proof of previous confusion in the form of myself. It's also came to my attention that some users who are worried of tarnishing there own reputation, because they care about their membership, are not willing to come forward from fear of embarassment. This is why I know I'm not the only one who is confused by such a decision such as this particular situation regarding the announcements thread.

Edit: It should also be becoming evident that I'm not just acting out of spite for the thread closure simply by the sheer scale of the posts I'm coming out with here. I care about GTPlanet and my membership here, many of you have seen damage limitation as a reason for closure, but there is no solid proof of major damage with the thread. By changing the description and being a bit clearer on moderation decisions and waiting maybe even an hour or 2 before deciding on new threads which haven't been done before but show some potential, then there's no need for another person to come out with such huge posts to waste alot of your time like I am.
I think that what I am doing now may be being considered as damage more serious then that of off-topic posts even if it is only in the fact that one single 2 year long member has found dissatisfaction and for the first time in over 2 years I have lost the pleasure I usually have in expressing an opinion whether it be agreement or not. Not because I am in anyway a significant member or influence, I feel I've never made any large contribution at all but thats just me, but simply because someone isn't happy and I can't see an increase in unhappy members by giving the thread a couple of hours to show it's true colours (perhaps The Colour Blue).

I really am sorry that I'm getting this into so many words, over 4100 words so far are purely from me in 7 posts, thanks to a quick word count using word (not including quotations). Unfortunately I've never been good at giving the short version, I'm simply not a clever person with words and I tend to babble when I feel passionately about something, if it gets to much please say and I'll do my best to shorten things although I find it difficult. Worst case I may have to give up if it is coming out as nonesense.

 

[Jordan]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=113145
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=120860
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=122398

As above, the examples of pretty dry threads of little subject matter, or with few and far between quality posts (I'll even admit my own work was not of the best quality in the first example), these threads all got there chance even when in particular the latter 2 were destined to either die or be rubbish from the start but they were given the chance to do either.

Those threads are not open-ended invitations to consolidate random discussion - they're just fun or bemusing. It is unfortunate if you took their non-closure as an invitation for more undirected chat threads, but that is not the case.

That said, I believe the keyword above is intentional, there was no such intention with the announcement thread, we are again going on the possibility that other members could have ruined it, not would have. Such threads as the How Many Replies can we get are clearly intentional rubbish, as are those which are labelled as chat threads which Daan later refered to me.

In the first post, Legendary724 defined the thread as a topic to "announce anything". That sounds "intentionally ambiguous" enough for me to support its closure.

Are you seriously comparing a thread which lasted over 100,000 replies and was clearly of absolute zero subject matter to one which had 2 posts and was still relevant at closure? [...] You just said yourself how different would it be if it the Replies thread was closed on 5, and correctly so, page 5, I ask the same question, how different would it have been if the announcement thread was closed on page 5?

No, I'm not comparing the threads, I was making the point that the timing of a thread closure matters. Once again, we will never know how the new thread in question would have turned out, be it positive or negative. Let us assume that it was on page 5 now, and - aside from the confusing fact that the thread will appear to be a duplicate for the majority of our most active users - was going strong. According to my experience over the last 10 years, the posts will gradually move away from announcements of "weddings and milestone posts" to drivel. After a particularly bad page or two, someone would complain here in the Site Feedback forum that we've relaxed moderation of the site far too much. We'd promptly close the thread, and then someone else would complain that there's no place to "relax" or "let off steam" in the forum. It's a cycle myself and the moderators have been through many, many times, and I'm sure you can appreciate the reason why we are not eager to go through it again.

I'm not seeing a strong enough argument which confirms the fact presented to me that it will go down hill as I was told and I see only speculation which can't be proved without giving the thread a trial run.

Unfortunately, you are asking me to "prove" something which cannot be proven or unproven. It is simply a policy decision which I have made based on my experience.

 

[Dragonistic]

Those threads are not open-ended invitations to consolidate random discussion - they're just fun or bemusing. It is unfortunate if you took their non-closure as an invitation for more undirected chat threads, but that is not the case.


In the first post, Legendary724 defined the thread as a topic to "announce anything". That sounds "intentionally ambiguous" enough for me to support its closure.

Firstly, I think to choose out the 2 words out of the full quote here is a little selective, the full quote reads 'This thread is to announce anything from Weddings to Milestone posts!'. Legendary has in that full sentence given examples of relevant announcements with use of the word 'from' in the same way that pick a number from 0 to 10 means not 11 but pick a number could be anything. I believe enough users have the common sense to know what it means, it is fair to make the assumption that those who would venture off topic are those who wouldn't go back and read the OP anyway or are just lacking common sense. This is up for debate but as the next paragraph will detail, yet more similarities are to be found between premium and rumble strip examples of announcement threads.

The Premium announcement threads reads 'I figured we Premiumites could use this thread for random announcements we have that probably won't garner very many posts' as its first sentence, is it not reasonable to say that random announcements and announcing anything are very similar in meaning? To delve further into the Premium thread, one of the posts is 'I really dig your avatar' I'm not criticising this poster but this could easily be viewed as general chat no? Essentially, and this hadn't occured to me until just now, the 2 begin in a similar manner, OP could be seen as an 'intentionally ambiguous' in the same manner. The premium version then shows an example of that in play, a pretty random post occurs before the post count even hits double digits the sort of evidence I would have hoped to have began to hint at the result that was found in the rumble strip. For this reason, unless this policy was brought in a reasonable amount of time after the premium version creation, March 2008, then there should have at least been some intervention to enforce this same policy as I am certain the policy applies to The Infield as well. I am aware that the threads I quoted are a bit of fun but a rumble strip announcement threads tangents can be viewed in the same manner, a bit of fun with no evidence that it will become an undirected chat. Infact it is likely that most tangents will lead off in the same manner as the premium, from other announcements until a new announcement is made. There are more people to encourage the tangents, but more people to post relevant announcements and without experimentation we cannot determine the effects of that.

No, I'm not comparing the threads, I was making the point that the timing of a thread closure matters. Once again, we will never know how the new thread in question would have turned out, be it positive or negative. Let us assume that it was on page 5 now, and - aside from the confusing fact that the thread will appear to be a duplicate for the majority of our most active users - was going strong. According to my experience over the last 10 years, the posts will gradually move away from announcements of "weddings and milestone posts" to drivel. After a particularly bad page or two, someone would complain here in the Site Feedback forum that we've relaxed moderation of the site far too much. We'd promptly close the thread, and then someone else would complain that there's no place to "relax" or "let off steam" in the forum. It's a cycle myself and the moderators have been through many, many times, and I'm sure you can appreciate the reason why we are not eager to go through it again.

I do not wish to nitpick, but the sentence above I have highlighted in bold I believe isn't correct in it's wording. Your experience shows past threads have gradually moved away from the topic in other threads, but it doesn't not mean they will in all future cases. This is not a fact as you (below) had stated can't be proved but it is being presented as a fact on the basis of your experience. Experiences show what has happened and not what will happen although they may aid predictions they can't be stated as fact. In the same way that the Prudence concept applies to businesses when stating revenues, they may only be stated when they are realized or assured not before when they are predicted.

That aside I can see why the process of leaving a thread which is good at first but then much later develops into a sore spot will be a pain to deal with, that is essentially your jobs however and the possibility for threads to go downhill can be found across the board. The babe thread is a bit of casual 'fun' (although some seem to take it pretty seriously!) for the premiums, but it could degenerate at any time, but at the point it's at, someone would complain of something along the lines of joykilling if closed, or in the same way lack of moderation if not exactly as you described. To move away from the premium sector into the popular GT5 section, some threads began to degenerate within a few meer posts to repetition of each other and sheer speculation as in this example. This thread is clearly never going to hit a real conclusion, it's complete speculation and guess work which has no real meaning. The reason I quote this thread is that it appears to have proven itself lock worthy very early on, but it was allowed to live on. The rumble strip announcements? 2 minutes and it's gone. Why did the GT5 speculation thread here get to go on when there's clearly time to close threads which have yet to go wrong?

This is why my complaint is inconsistency not plain wrong decisions. I am aware people disagree or agree with decisions, it's unavoidable, but I'm seeing plenty of examples which suggest threads which are downright useless in this case that live on and show no positive signs, yet in the case of this announcements thread, there was some possible good to come from it. Damage limitation is a perfectly good reason to close if (in my opinion) there is clear foreseeable damage, there is some to be had with the announcement thread, but there are in many other threads and I question why this particular thread got the lock when others have not during their first moments. Of course now it may be to late to change things in some threads, but threads which should be locked shouldn't be allowed to stay open on the basis that people will complain about it, or similarly they shouldn't be locked for the reason of removing doubts in levels of moderation. I believe it is wrong to suggest that a thread should be locked to avoid the possibility of extra workload during moderation should things get out of hand when there is no proof of a downward spiral which you are stating in the below quote.

Yes it is hard work but that's why there are moderators in place, to make decisions for the right reasons which may mean going against a majority, if a thread is left open and eventually goes down, then I think that it's part of the moderators job to justify the closure as in this case I felt not enough explanation was given, one line isn't enough and it felt a little lazy and it's resulted in thousands of words in this thread which you now have to deal with from me alone. A longer explanation may still have resulted in my complaints but a longer period given before closure (or in other cases as is often, to quote such as in reposted threads), followed by a reasonable explanation? I really can't see people complaining heavily bar those looking for a reason to complain. If there's some evidence to back up a decision, less explanation is needed, quoting the off-topic posts, saying the thread is to off-topic and closing it will be enough for most. I am still certain in the case of this thread, it wouldn't be considered major enough in users eyes to be complaint worthy if there was evidence to back up the decision.

Unfortunately, you are asking me to "prove" something which cannot be proven or unproven. It is simply a policy decision which I have made based on my experience.

The simple fact is, given time it could have proven or unproven things, I personally believe one policy fits all isn't good enough and that moderation should be performed on a situational basis with a set of guidelines as to how to deal with some situations. In this case, the policy was brought down as a damage limitation but has also resulted in a gain limitation as there is reason to believe it could have gone either way without a common sense element to differentiate between the possibilities such as that element found in the 'How Many Replies' previously referred to. I'm sure that it should have been picked up on sooner in that case, and you've learnt from that clearly, but the subject matter from the OP was poor to begin with and the damage limitation principle would have been entirely appropriate in an example of a poor topic. Gain is clearly low when the topic is poor or just plain random or general, there's enough places to have a bit of fun (funny picture/video/jokes threads) whereas possible damage as proven was high. However in this situation of possible gain possible loss it, to me, is unreasonable to limit an immeasurable amount of damage against an immeasurable amount of gain due to the lack of time given before decisions were made.

With all of that said, it is becoming clear that nothing or very little I say on this particular matter is going to change things and I am not budging on the matter anytime soon. I will accept an agree to disagree on it despite my displeasure for the sake of moving onwards to what I think is a clear positive, if only small, contribution in the form of the rumble strip description. To repeat myself, I believe the phrases 'off-topic' and 'no general subject' need to change as well for the reasons I detailed before that threads all have a subject, which may indeed be a general subject but it's unreasonable to claim there is no general subject and that they are off topic. I would also like to repeat a suggestion of having it read more along the lines of Discussion on general subjects or words to the effect of as I'm sure someone amongst us can come up with a better wording.

 

[Spock]

The point of the Rumble strip is to start single topic threads that follow the topic, it is essentially a giant conversational thread with specific topics at hand. Creating a whole new thread for the purpose of talking about anything is entirely redundant. If the announcements thread was specific to say just wedding announcements for example or the thread starter was just announcing his own wedding it may have gone over better, but asking to announce just anything in such a large forum is nothing more than redundancy.

 

[Dragonistic]

The point of the Rumble strip is to start single topic threads that follow the topic, it is essentially a giant conversational thread with specific topics at hand. Creating a whole new thread for the purpose of talking about anything is entirely redundant. If the announcements thread was specific to say just wedding announcements for example or the thread starter was just announcing his own wedding it may have gone over better, but asking to announce just anything in such a large forum is nothing more than redundancy.

The description says different, it says off topic (which doesn't follow the topic) it says no general subject (which isn't a specific topic). Perhaps indeed a more specific thread would have gone down better but again the rumble strip description mislead me into thinking it was fine. I must again make the point I am not trying to over-turn the decision, but I believe there is enough subject matter there to not claim it is a general chat thread in the same way that the premium version isn't closed for being a general chat thread. It's unreasonable to say it's ok in the premium thread because there's less people to go off topic. Off topic is off topic and it can go just as far with a few people as with many, such as the suggested general chat threads in the premium section itself. The above also seems to suggest that some of the reasonably nonesense rambling threads which I quoted in previous posts are ok because they're specific, so general nonesense is unacceptable but specific nonesense is ok?

What appears to be being suggested, is yes the premium announcements is the same, but because there's less people to manage it's ok. To me this seems wrong, if general chat is not allowed and a topic is deemed close worthy on that basis it should go across the board with no exceptions. For that reason, if a specific announcements topic is ok in the rumble strip, similar restrictions should apply to the premiums to. They do not lose the exclusive content available in The Infield it's just spread out into specific announcements or dedicated threads exactly how I'm told is ok in the Rumble Strip.

That said, I'm sure it will be in some peoples mind that as Jordan said, closing a long busy thread results in complaints. Perhaps so but if hypothetically speaking I'm correct and the premium announcements should be split to, then it is wrong, very wrong, in my eyes to leave the general announcements open to avoid extra work caused by complaints.

However, I will again repeat myself in saying that it is probably beneficial to drop that matter now, there has been plenty enough said on the matter with not alot new which can be brought to the table and nothing massively significant which will sway my mind or seemingly the staff. I appear to be the minority here so the cost of fighting the battle of the immovable object V the unstoppable force is more likely to end badly for me, I am already sensing some people are becoming a little frustrated with me.

 

[DRIFT4EVA]

You know, everytime someone mentions something about how bad it is to chit-chat on GTP or anything else, there's always someone talking about The Colour Blue thread... get over it! It was an annoying thread and a mindboggle to follow. I'm glad it's dead, I really am.

Yay! At the meere mention of it some fool tells me to get over it. It doesn't hurt to reminisce about it with fellow friends from back then

Now silly point out of the way. I can't really see a problem with the description of "The Rumble Strip" You can see it's contents on the main forum screen. You can even see it's subfolders if you look hard enough. What's not to get?

 

[TB]

No one will ever stop you from starting a thread on a subject that you could have otherwise posted in the Announcement thread had it been left open - provided it's warranted. Otherwise, just citing two examples, my I'm going to be a dad again! thread and FK's FoolKiller Becomes Bionic would have been shelved.

Off topic is off topic and it can go just as far with a few people as with many, such as the suggested general chat threads in the premium section itself.

While I agree with you on the few vs. many off topic issue, you can't seriously believe that it's as easy to police the, what? 1000 regular posters in TRS as it is the 160 (without an increase in staff) that have posted in the Infield Announcement thread, can you?

Also, you make it sound like you can get away with anything you want in the Infield, which clearly isn't the case.

 

[Smallhorses]

The description says different, it says off topic (which doesn't follow the topic) it says no general subject (which isn't a specific topic).

It says "Off Topic" in terms of threads not related to the Gran Turismo games, which the site was originally conceived for, not in terms of encouraging off-topic posting within the threads that get posted there.
The general subject areas of the site, such as the Automotive subforums, Sports & Fitness, Online Racing, etc., etc. have emerged & expanded as the site has grown with the members attracted to the site as the GT games have progressed and the additional discussion that's kept everyone occupied in between games as people lose interest in a GT title and await the next iteration of the franchise, but the description of the Rumble Strip (as one of the first breakaway areas) has remained the same, and so has it's purpose.

It's a matter of emphasis, and you're chosing to put the emphasis in the wrong place.