The thing that updates cannot fix. What is the future for GT?

[Energizerrr]

No.

GT5's clear graphics, 1080p/60fps and amazing draw distance is next to none.
Why would anyone want to change that?


Want effects? NFS is there for you.

 

[Raitziger]

Want effects? NFS is there for you.

Also eye glasses covered with grease generates the same effect

 

[Imari]

No.

GT5's clear graphics, 1080p/60fps and amazing draw distance is next to none.
Why would anyone want to change that?


Want effects? NFS is there for you.

GT5 is great, but are the really no aspects from other games that could improve it? I'd love the visceral crash noises from Shift instead of GT5's kicking-a-bucket-of-water "thunk". I'd love some of the other tracks to become more populated along the lines of N24. I'd love car sounds that had a bit more pep to them, although obviously Shift takes this to the opposite extreme.

Shift may be a terrible game, but there's things that can be learned from it (and other games like Forza and F1 2011) that can make GT5 a more immersive and better experience. Discussing them is useful, blanket statements about how GT5 is superior to all are not.

 

[Timppaq]

Almost replied how stupid it would be to aim lower than 60fps, then I realized that it would have been pointless as it really would be really stupid and luckily we already know that all developers worth a thought already knows this for ages. So we are safe in this regard, thank gawd.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

oh god please no. No Drift2 style "careers" that have you communicating with an annoying manager as you race against a bunch of "arch rivals." None of those career paths has made me feel like more of a driver than GT5. Gran Turismo is a sand box. Theres lots of different ways to enjoy it and its got a unique style. I see no need to make it more like other games (most of which are not nearly as enjoyable anyway.)

And please please please NO HIP HOP STREET RACING garbage! ick...

No one is asking for that, please scroll up and try again. GT5 has gotten to a point where the old original hat tricks of the PS1 days are dead and gone. I can understand to a degree why certain thinks and driving aren't on the first four games, but in 2011 going on 2012 there are more thing out there (not just GT-R) that could be applied.

I'm starting to see (at least here) that people feel GT5 isn't so much another GT game, but just another racing game in general which is sad on GTs part. I feel like PD made it boring this time around for a few reasons.

1. GT5 has a horrible offline model compared to past GT, the license tests that were so coveted and made you feel like you had to learn driving again to move up are now just filler and somewhat removed due to leveling up. Which seems to be some idea of Modern to PD, and something that I've seen most GT fans not like when playing this game or forza. The offline model prize cars do little justice as well and don't show the effort for your hard work really, the past where special F1 cars and other highly sought cars is over, and replaced with clocking hour after hour just to make money to buy a 10mil to 20mil car that you could have easily won in a offline race in past games. Also with the idea that B-spec somewhat helps fix the fact that you don't have as much adventure as you did in past GT games, it tends to show that the modern way GT went in this area wasn't needed. The dealership and regional screens of past GT games that also made it different from others is lost and tuning somewhat. However, I can't be critical cause GT did brought back UCD and the GT Auto hasn't changed from the past but is almost the same and just been improved upon. The point is GT was probably far ahead of their time in screens and game layout than any game of today and during the time of past GTs. In fact I say Forza got a lot of influence from GT when it came to regional screens and dealership set up.

2. The car options still seem to lack and just saying you have a nth amount of cars isn't doing justice. However, I say and hope that PD probably have a lot of cars we've yet to drive in a GT game, but will be happy to have. I just don't see us getting them in any DLC or update with this game. GT5 at some time will become like all other games and just be yesterdays model, and the shift to fully making GT6 wont be far from now. The way I see it.

3. The last part is just the physics model of it all, this game has made it to where I don't know what is real anymore and what isn't. Meaning the updates have helped the game to a certain degree. However, playing the game from five updates ago to three updates ago to now seem like years apart in driving knowledge, and feel like what I did before that worked is wrong and now I must fix the driving style. Though I do admit with this update driving the RUF CTR was fun and felt on edge every lap, but still lacks.

4. Also I think one thing that PD can't fix with a quick update is experience, meaning the experience they lack with new things like damage, weather, time shifts etc, are going to need work and an update ever so often is going to fix them in the near future. However, I do believe that with time and a little more man power these things that we've all complained about will be better in future GT games. I think these updates will surely help them see what the fans react to well and that is was will help them make a better physics engine for GT6 or GT7 or what have you.


I do somewhat have the same worry as others though and feel that if GT try to become a sim like the PC they'll dig themselves in a hole and probably lose more luster. As well as becoming the racing game that once was to the racing game like all others.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Here is the current SMS (slightly mad studios) project, entitled simply CARS





Keep in mind this is a pre-alpha build of the game, and it looks and, for the most part, sounds stunning. It's both technically and artistically beautiful. Spa obviously isn't finished yet, lol, but the car looks great. This is what I think the next iteration of GT should strive for.

edit, I mean watch this trailer:

http://vimeo.com/31518339

1:22 - Spinning driveshafts!!

 

[180bandit]

Yes,this is one of the things that works on concept level in F4.(in practice It often seems to give too much for little effort for my taste)


No. F4 feels more like a boat. Trust me, I have driven cars and boats.(but not modded a car to feel like a boat )

The cars do feel much heavier in Forza, I wouldn't call it sailing tho. Still drives well...

 

[Vaxxtx]

Here is the current SMS (slightly mad studios) project, entitled simply CARS

Keep in mind this is a pre-alpha build of the game, and it looks and, for the most part, sounds stunning. It's both technically and artistically beautiful. Spa obviously isn't finished yet, lol, but the car looks great. This is what I think the next iteration of GT should strive for.

edit, I mean watch this trailer:

http://vimeo.com/31518339

1:22 - Spinning driveshafts!!

Its actually C.A.R.S. as in Community Assist Racing Simulator. SMS is doing a bold move, and its looking great. There pricing is going to be interesting as well. Making a game sans publisher is a great step that I hope succeeds and more devs follow.

The cars do feel much heavier in Forza, I wouldn't call it sailing tho. Still drives well...

Drives VERY well. Tire physics, and body roll are the best on consoles currently.

 

[kimi123]

Here is the current SMS (slightly mad studios) project, entitled simply CARS





Keep in mind this is a pre-alpha build of the game, and it looks and, for the most part, sounds stunning. It's both technically and artistically beautiful. Spa obviously isn't finished yet, lol, but the car looks great. This is what I think the next iteration of GT should strive for.

edit, I mean watch this trailer:

http://vimeo.com/31518339

1:22 - Spinning driveshafts!!

Yeah it has amazing graphics already and the game is expected to be released in 2013 or late 2012. But those are running on gaming rigs and probably 60fps or close to it

I think it will be released on current gen consoles so graphics will be toned down and it will probably be 30fps as well

 

[Imari]

I think it will be released on current gen consoles so graphics will be toned down and it will probably be 30fps as well

What if they give you the option to choose? 30fps with lots of fancy effects, or 60fps with as much unnecessary graphical stuff turned off as possible? That would please everyone.

Given that it's a PC sim at heart, it would make sense to me to include these sorts of options.

 

[kimi123]

No that is very unlikely to say the least. On consoles they have to decide fps before developing on it so either 30fps or 60fps. Their previous games were 30fps so I am pretty sure it will be same if they want to maintain shift2 level of graphics.

 

[CSLACR]

I think another problem with ambient things like wind noise is that when you're actually driving, your brain sort of edits them out a lot. I drive a fairly old and fairly noisy car, but even at freeway speeds and having to raise my voice to speak to the passenger, I rarely find myself thinking about the wind noise. It just doesn't register.

When it's coming from a TV though, that same editing circuit in my brain never clicks on. So even though the volume of the wind noise may be accurate to what it should be in a real life car, it's having a disproportionate effect because the way it's delivered means that my brain is receiving it at full volume instead of damping it down.

It's entirely possible that I'm the only one this happens to, but I'd be surprised. There's all sorts of noises when I'm driving that I just...ignore, for want of a better word. I have years of experience that they're not important noises, so I only notice when they're wrong or absent.

Exactly. I think it just comes down to being in a living room, gaming room, whatever room you're in.
When you're in a car there's always wind noise, so you tune it out. How often is wind rumbling about in your living room though?

 

[Imari]

On consoles they have to decide fps before developing on it so either 30fps or 60fps.

Why do they have to? It's being developed on PC and then ported to console anyway. Tell me why it's not possible for them to create two sets of graphics settings rather than one when they port it over? It's more work (how much more, I have no idea), but it's potentially worth it.

Admittedly, I'm not aware of anyone ever having done something similar on a console before. Doesn't mean it can't be done though.

 

[dr_slump]

hz and fps are different technical terms, which are related to screen's refresh rate and frame rate of moving images (in this case coming from a video game) respectively.
While it may sound the same, it truly isn't. The best way to explain it is, as I said, to try it yourself: 120fps with a 60hz screen doesn't look well, but 125fps with a 120hz screen (preferably crt) looks much better.

You didn't really read my post, did you?
I said in his case, related to his post, it doesn't matter. I really don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

I never said it's the same.

everyone on this thread agrees that there's a noticeable difference between 60 and 120 fps, even more so between 30 and 60. That's the whole reason why competitive games have to run at 60 fps on consoles, such as first person shooters, racing and fighting games: 30 feels too choppy and unresponsive.

Ignorance if you say everyone, when at least me and that other guy disagreed. We agreed that there's a (hardly) noticeable difference between 30 and 60fps, but not between 60 and 120fps.

Maybe it has to do with your setup so it showed 60fps instead of 120. Did you disable vsync?

I never use vsync.

and about 300 fps, yes it is a bit overkill but it makes the game smoother and more responsive if paired with other settings (hz, physics and input rate for example).
Those settings, along with playing with 125 fps with a 120hz screen, are truly only a requirement for people who have been playing competitively for years in faster games than the racing genre.

Truly impressive when you can feel 0.005sec difference.

This is a good opportunity to realize that racing sims/games almost don't have major competitions going on, for example the very first LAN event was last year, whereas other genres (mainly shooters and rts) have for more than 10 years. This is why these technical issues aren't well known here, but they have been discussed thoroughly.

I don't think that this is the reason for it. And the big majority of the good drivers wouldn't even think about to complain about the framerate of GT5. GTP has more racing leagues, ask some people there, I'm sure almost nobody would say it's something which makes them slower.

ofc not everyone plays with over than 120/125 fps; that's more of a niche and maybe I shouldn't have put that very specific example.
Thing is it does make a difference to play with more steady fps. To put it straight, I'm 100% sure that no competitive pc player plays with less than 60 steady fps, in any currently played game whatsoever.

60fps is alright, just everything above is pretty much useless. But maybe it has to do with psychologie and you simply play better with it, because you believe its better. Like a placebo.

and to put an end to this argument, which comes from false statements and new (or at least casual) console gamers to be honest, this all has to do with motion blur. Almost every console game of this generation features it, so it....blurs the difference between 30 and 60 fps.

Nice, I'm a new or at least casual console gamer! How do you actually know that?

I would also prefer 60fps over 30fps, like I ever said there's a hardly noticeable difference, but it is noticeable at least. So it's ok, just everything above is discussable.

edit: This also has to do with lcd screens, because the image is refreshed a lot slower than crt screens, including 240hz tv screens (which are 60hz. That's just marketing) and 120hz lcd pc monitors (which are truly 120hz, but a crt's is much faster for other technical reasons). What I want to say is that if you want to try this please use your PC screen and not your tv, specially if it is a 120hz lcd monitor or even better a well configured crt.

I'm aware of it. And believe me I care about it, I did a lot of research before I bought my TV and Monitor. But that was pretty much all because of input lag, wich is several times more crucial.

Anyway, I see we're digressing a bit from the original topic.

____

@OP
Theoreticaly, they could give us a brand new game per patch.

 

[Imari]

...the big majority of the good drivers wouldn't even think about to complain about the framerate of GT5. GTP has more racing leagues, ask some people there, I'm sure almost nobody would say it's something which makes them slower.

It's not so much the framerate, it's the variability. We had a time/weather La Sarthe race last week, and a lot of people commented that they were having problems at some point with the frame rate dropping. It does throw people off, especially if it happens in braking zones or mid corner. It messes with your timing.

Personally, if it's a choice between 30fps or 50fps that randomly drops to 30fps, I'd just take the steady one. At least I know what I'm getting and can adjust my driving accordingly.

 

[dr_slump]

It's not so much the framerate, it's the variability. We had a time/weather La Sarthe race last week, and a lot of people commented that they were having problems at some point with the frame rate dropping. It does throw people off, especially if it happens in braking zones or mid corner. It messes with your timing.

Personally, if it's a choice between 30fps or 50fps that randomly drops to 30fps, I'd just take the steady one. At least I know what I'm getting and can adjust my driving accordingly.

An online race? There are some problems in online racing, which don't appear offline. Sadly.....
The only solution would be to drive without rainy weather.

The drops are bad, I agree. All what I said was related to constant fps rates, I missed the drops part. But I must say in 99.9% of the time I spent into GT5, framerate wasn't an issue. (most time lag)

 

[Imari]

An online race? There are some problems in online racing, which don't appear offline. Sadly.....
The only solution would be to drive without rainy weather.

The drops are bad, I agree. All what I said was related to constant fps rates, I missed the drops part. But I must say in 99.9% of the time I spent into GT5, framerate wasn't an issue. (most time lag)

Yeah, it was online. I sort of assumed that was what you were talking about, because racing leagues are pretty much an online only thing.

Offline is sort of irrelevant (from the point of racing), because unless you completely cripple your car the AI is never competitive enough for things like frame rate to be a deciding factor in a race.

 

[syclone666]

Gt4 not only ran at near 60fps it was also had an option to run in 1080i and it ran smother than gt5 get rid of some small % of pixels drop framrate by just a few and clean everything else up would be nice

 

[syclone666]

And the ai just really hurts they slow down let you pass and are way way to slow around coners

 

[PAWEL17]

And the ai just really hurts they slow down let you pass and are way way to slow around coners

They are just conserving there tyres, really well.

 

[Tenacious D]

I've been meaning to return to this subject for a few days now. This has been the wackiest Christmas ever. Anyway...

GT5's main issue with sound itself is the volume of different things. I've driven some extremely loud cars, and it sounded exactly like NFS Shift. You put full racing exhaust on something and it should be screaming at you, tire noise be damned. I never once heard the tires squeal on a Trans Am with full headers, y-pipe, no cats and no muffler. Because you can't, not over 120 decibels.

I know the sound thing has been pretty much beaten into a crater by now, but I wanted to bring up this. The reason that you can take a roaring monster car around turns in real life without hearing the tires is because you can feel it. In a video game, you just can't. There are only two real sensory inputs most racers can use to judge how well a car is taking a turn, which are force feedback and tire noise. Realistic or not, there has to be prominent tire noise, because most racers can't carry around tables of performance data in their heads to use in estimating how fast a given car on given tires can take a turn. Rather, they race by what the car is communicating to them, and that tire noise is really important to most of us.

The cars do feel much heavier in Forza, I wouldn't call it sailing tho. Still drives well...

Drives VERY well. Tire physics, and body roll are the best on consoles currently.

I know this is a touchy subject around here, but in this case figures into the discussion rather strongly. Turn 10 has done some very good work on the dynamics of their cars this time, as I haven't seen such realistic body roll and collision physics outside of Live For Speed. The sense of weight is also very good. But I must say that the driving part is just a wee bit strange. I know the long time Forza fans, and converts from games like PGR, NFS and TDU love Forza 4, as well as a few GT and sim fans. But for the rest of us, it's definitely an acquired taste, and taking turns in Forza just isn't like taking turns in just about any other racer. And features like ABS are poorly modeled.

The next gen of racers from GTR3, rFactor 2 and C.A.R.S. look interesting, but I have to wonder how much more immersive they are. It seems that in this thread, immersion and thereness boils down to being surrounded by a noisy car-monster with high quality noises, so it's understandable why Shift 2 and Forza 4 get high marks there. But I want to remind everyone that there's much more to being in a real life race than a noisy car.

There's the whole environment thing. I know that other games have had time of day changes and weather, in a sense at least, but GT5's environments are much more convincing. If GT5 had the rules, race marshals that actually did things, even pace and safety cars, that would add a little something to the race experience. Another is reactive crowds, which would respond to things like race starts and accidents like real people would. I mentioned more realistic pit stops and active pit crews as they work on your car.

Yet another factor which helps are little touches like cinemas. In the GT5 Special Events, there are cinemas which depict in marvelous images and music the advancement of your driver through a grand tour, and the ever more powerful cars you use in your progress.

Everyone seems to focus on the more ferocious car sounds as the key to an involving race experience, but it seems that to most of us, we get more immersion from having a good racing experience. A wheel controller which delivers good feedback, and a car which communicates well through the game. I would insist that to go as far as you can with that involvement, it takes more than good loud car sounds. It's all the other elements involved in a real world racing experience. And delivering that in a game requires a pretty powerful system to bring those thousands of little touches to life. You don't look to other games for all this. Like, what game does SMS look to for inspiration for C.A.R.S.? Or is it real life motorsports?

In Polyphony Digital, we have a president who has real world experience in professional racing. He knows what it's like. Now he has to find some way to wrap as much of that up in a game as he can.

 

[GT6mebe]

Drives VERY well. Tire physics, and body roll are the best on consoles currently.

hahahahaha LOL. That is entirely your opinion. I personally think FM4 has inferior to GT5 in physics by a substantial amount. Please do not try and make your opinions sound like fact though because they are not.

Oh and though CARS looks amazing , it was visibly working suspension, I have played the beta and I know it is at a very early stage (not even beta to be honest) but the physics are iffy. It does not compete with iRacing or ven rfactor and they have clearly borrowed aspects of the physics form shift 2

 

[ABstinence]

The future is that GT will be seen to make "quality but no quality' games where some aspects of the game are second to none but some are none to second