Potato...

[Haitauer]

ABS in GT (most of the series) has acted as a brake balance control as well as ABS, its why adjusting brake bias has always had a negligible effect when you have ABS switched on.

Yes - i remember quite a few conversations on this subject..

 

[ExplorerPhels]

I was just about to post something related to this. Dont know about changes, but heres my thoughts on current abs.

Yesterday I hit a wall trying to improve my gr4 dragon trail daily qualifying time from 1.45:7. Just couldnt get the car turn in better and couldnt control braking as much as i would have wanted as ABS was controlling the yaw of the car too much with brake balace even slightly to rear just made the car not stop anymore. I guess abs is cutting the brake pressure of all wheels according to most easily locking wheel.

Apply ABS OFF. I have tested this now and then, but for reasons of easy accessibility and to have easier transitions between cars and tracks, i have kept abs on. One less thing to concentrate - kind of tought. What surpriced me this time was how everything transformed once abs was off. Whole balance of the car changed a bit and I felt a lot more in control. It did take few laps of all kinds of disasters to get used to abs off, but after 30 laps i had shaved my time to 1.45:446 - #249 at EMEA region st that point.. almost half a second off! And it wasnt because of practice. I have driven some 200+ laps on that very qualifying whith that very same huracan past few days. I was just able to brake later as car stopped faster without abs interfering and able to control the yaw of the car so much better with trail braking pressure and brake balance. And i was also more consistent between laps and closer to my fastest time most of the time - go figure! Those little puffs of white smoke tell how well one can brake at the edge of grip without abs.



That said I think theres a huge variation how people feel the "physics" of GTS depending on settings and gear. Im using t-gt without the rumble ang a 30kg conical sping mod i made for the brake, so i have pretty good feel of brake pressure. But if i just compare abs on vs off theres a huge difference, let alone other aids or different wheels or ds4. Cant imagine theres just one model of physics we could even compare if using different settings / gear. And that easy transition between cars i was talking earlier? You can forget about it without abs..

ps. Still wondering why that red brake pressure cut off is still present with abs off.. simulating the pressure valve of any given car irl? Sadly im also more and more convinced abs in GTS works more like a stability control than just abs..

I tried for the first time to switch it off as you did, precisely on weak, as I don't feel my brake inputs smooth enough, but I felt the same way, much more in control and the car felt lighter, with less understeer.

 

[Haitauer]

I tried for the first time to switch it off as you did, precisely on weak, as I don't feel my brake inputs smooth enough, but I felt the same way, much more in control and the car felt lighter, with less understeer.

I also was always on "weak" before turning it off. I can imagine the full abs is pretty intrusive..

 

[ExplorerPhs]

When I brake at 100 % drops pressure, and in trail braking applies more pressure. So I wasn't really in control of my braking. It's not a matter of being faster or not with it, I almost have same times, but I drive better. With more confidence.

 

[K3Tuning]

Every fastest lap replay in dailies I've seen has ABS on.

 

[ExplorerPhs]

Every fastest lap replay in dailies I've seen has ABS on.

Weak, in fact, is on. I wrote that I set it to weak.

 

[K3Tuning]

Im just saying. All the top times run it and it makes the chaotic races a little less chaotic I guess lol

I was a die hard zero ABS in GT5 & GT6 had to keep it real, but since a while more and more cars are standard ABS and more and more racing categories use it. So I stopped being so die hard over nothing. Even traction control. Group 3 cars run them both so in actuality to simulate those races go on and use them. However I'm still a bit on the wild side and if the car did not have abs I don't use it, makes the old cars a bit crazy fun.

Im not saying anything about full on or weak

Just saying its fine in my book to use whatever works best for you.

I find the best thing is just never to slam the brakes and don't ALWAYS go up to a flat pedal, moderation slows the car much better in all abs settings .

 

[fastone371]

I was just about to post something related to this. Dont know about changes, but heres my thoughts on current abs.

Yesterday I hit a wall trying to improve my gr4 dragon trail daily qualifying time from 1.45:7. Just couldnt get the car turn in better and couldnt control braking as much as i would have wanted as ABS (weak) was controlling the yaw of the car too much with brake balace even slightly to rear just made the car not stop anymore. I guess abs is cutting the brake pressure of all wheels according to most easily locking wheel.

Apply ABS OFF. I have tested this now and then, but for reasons of easy accessibility and to have easier transitions between cars and tracks, i have kept abs on. One less thing to concentrate - kind of tought. What surpriced me this time was how everything transformed once abs was off. Whole balance of the car changed a bit and I felt a lot more in control. It did take few laps of all kinds of disasters to get used to abs off, but after 30 laps i had shaved my time to 1.45:446 - #249 at EMEA region st that point.. almost half a second off! And it wasnt because of practice. I have driven some 200+ laps on that very qualifying whith that very same huracan past few days. I was just able to brake later as car stopped faster without abs interfering and able to control the yaw of the car so much better with trail braking pressure and brake balance. And i was also more consistent between laps and closer to my fastest time most of the time - go figure! Those little puffs of white smoke tell how well one can brake at the edge of grip without abs.



That said I think theres a huge variation how people feel the "physics" of GTS depending on settings and gear. Im using t-gt without the rumble ang a 30kg conical sping mod i made for the brake, so i have pretty good feel of brake pressure. But if i just compare abs on vs off theres a huge difference, let alone other aids or different wheels or ds4. Cant imagine theres just one model of physics we could even compare if using different settings / gear. And that easy transition between cars i was talking earlier? You can forget about it without abs..

ps. Still wondering why that red brake pressure cut off is still present with abs off.. simulating the pressure valve of any given car irl? Sadly im also more and more convinced abs in GTS works more like a stability control than just abs..

I dont recall PD saying anything about ABS changes with each physics update. I have worked pretty hard on cars with ABS off in each physics model of GTS and the cars were always borderline drivable with no ABS, now you can actually drive and tune the cars without ABS.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

*Snip*

ps. Still wondering why that red brake pressure cut off is still present with abs off.. simulating the pressure valve of any given car irl? Sadly im also more and more convinced abs in GTS works more like a stability control than just abs..

Damn it, you made me go and test it.

With BB at 0 there is no red in the brake bar on the HUD.
But move it 1 click forwards or backwards and you get a slither of red.
Then, as you move BB incrementally either forwards or backwards from 1 up to 5 the slither of red grows a little bigger with each step.

I've never noticed red before with ABS Off, so obviously I tested it only with a BB of 0.

The things you learn.

 

[K3Tuning]

Could be something like equal pressure is applied but abs is used to shift brake balance. So if adjusted to have more rear bias ABS SYSTEM is used on the front to reduce its application.

Sorta like torque vectoring through abs

 

[ExplorerPhels]

Learning from you guys it's always a pleasure. Been playing GT only for a few months, but I'm learning many things. Thank you.

 

[K3Tuning]

Its interesting. If the amount of red seen increases with increased bias shift it would support the theory.

Something to think about / debate could then be if the amount fluctuates with speed and if that would support the theory. I need to think about it before testing.

 

[Haitauer]

Im just saying. All the top times run it and it makes the chaotic races a little less chaotic I guess lol

Thats exactly my reason for abs weak - less concetration needed for braking give more time to concetrate on race happening around you. Also abs weak helps when making "panic" reactions in race situations.

Damn it, you made me go and test it.

With BB at 0 there is no red in the brake bar on the HUD.
But move it 1 click forwards or backwards and you get a slither of red.
Then, as you move BB incrementally either forwards or backwards from 1 up to 5 the slither of red grows a little bigger with each step.

I've never noticed red before with ABS Off, so obviously I tested it only with a BB of 0.

The things you learn.

Could be something like equal pressure is applied but abs is used to shift brake balance. So if adjusted to have more rear bias ABS SYSTEM is used on the front to reduce its application.

Sorta like torque vectoring through abs

Its interesting. If the amount of red seen increases with increased bias shift it would support the theory.

Something to think about / debate could then be if the amount fluctuates with speed and if that would support the theory. I need to think about it before testing.

This must be something like the so many times in GT series speculated brake pressure valve / regulator. Red shows how much pressure is leaked/shifted from higher pressure axle. I assume there is a regulator like this that allows only certain amount of difference in pressure between axles in every real life car. Just hope we could adjust this regulator "cut off" similar to limited slip diff.

Ive been mistaken to think this red bar shows the limit abs is doing vs my brake input..

 

[photonmonkey]

So after hating the update on a controller as IMHO I think they have dumbed down the analogue stick steering, even on the highest sensitivity settings. I saw some people talk about motion steering, I almost fell off my chair in repulsion at such an input method.... However, I thought I would give It a go as otherwise I would have probably binned the game, yes I was that annoyed! ....I have to say it has made the game challenging again, yes there is still some 'steering fairy' action going on but nowhere near as much as with the stick. It actually feels like I am steering now instead of just 'suggesting' what I want the wheels to do! Kudos to PD for implementing this, but I shouldn't be forced into using it because they have nerfed the steering on the stick!

 

[K3Tuning]

Motion Steering?

What is this you speak of good Sir?

How does this work?

If one were to try this anything one should know?

 

[photonmonkey]

Motion Steering?

What is this you speak of good Sir?

How does this work?

If one were to try this anything one should know?

Nothing new, just me being late to the GT Sport party, you know the DS4 gyroscopic shizzel. I just hadn't ever considered it as a steering option (been there since day one) but after the last physics update the stick control option seemed to have some extra assist on catching slides which P'd me off no end as whatever I did I couldnt lose the backend on tail happy cars unless I really tried!

 

[Brzlav]

So after hating the update on a controller as IMHO I think they have dumbed down the analogue stick steering, even on the highest sensitivity settings. I saw some people talk about motion steering, I almost fell off my chair in repulsion at such an input method.... However, I thought I would give It a go as otherwise I would have probably binned the game, yes I was that annoyed! ....I have to say it has made the game challenging again, yes there is still some 'steering fairy' action going on but nowhere near as much as with the stick. It actually feels like I am steering now instead of just 'suggesting' what I want the wheels to do! Kudos to PD for implementing this, but I shouldn't be forced into using it because they have nerfed the steering on the stick!

Steering fairy, good one .
Yes, that's what the update feels like to me, just that I am using a wheel. If you don't overdrive the cars, they feel better post 1.32, but once you go over the limit, the steering fairy is very present on the wheel as well.

 

[super_gt]

I was able to try yesterday GT Sport with Thrustmaster T300rs and T3PA-PRO pedals(without the CONICAL RUBBER BRAKE MOD). Track Nordschleife, car BMW M4 Coupé, tires - front sports medium, rear sports hard (the front end grip is just not enough for me that's why I use different tires front to rear), all AIDS and ABS off. I must first say that physics is better than GT6. The FFB may not have the road details as Assetto Corsa but the feeling for oversteer in the physics and in the FFB is wonderful, much better than Project CARS 2 and Assetto Corsa.

It seems Barry Rowland has the same opinion as mine:

 

[photonmonkey]

It's there on wheel as well?, that surprises me! I thought it was just us lowly controller users that got the 'training wheels' assist. Why hasn't anyone else noticed this? I know that GT Sport isn't a balls out Sim but it was heading in the right direction IMO, as you say, other than the increased grip levels within the limit 'positive' there is too much negative in respect of the really simplified handling over the limit (to me the cars just never bite back now, just behave themselves, I never feel like I am on the edge!) I suppose it's just exposing the limitations in the bare bones simplified tyre SIM that GT Sport is using, Shame really

 

[Voodoovaj]

a knew thread sh

Thats exactly my reason for abs weak - less concetration needed for braking give more time to concetrate on race happening around you. Also abs weak helps when making "panic" reactions in race situations.

So, this discussion made me want to try abs weak again. I had used it a while back, but one of the earlier updates made it so that default was definitely better and I had never gone back.

All I can say is WOW. Now, granted, I wan't any faster (yet). I simply turned it on and did 2 races at Suzuka. I was at the same pace as before, but the GR3 Huracan was less nervous on ABS weak. I was very surprised by this. Even on worn tires, the Huracan was more stable.

I'll need to give this more time so I can acclimate to it. I'm slow to adapt to changes, but I can't imagine this being a bad thing. I should be able to be more aggressive with it.

Currently, I am at a 2:00.225 at Suzuka. Let's see if I can bring that down now,

 

[fastone371]

It's there on wheel as well?, that surprises me! I thought it was just us lowly controller users that got the 'training wheels' assist. Why hasn't anyone else noticed this? I know that GT Sport isn't a balls out Sim but it was heading in the right direction IMO, as you say, other than the increased grip levels within the limit 'positive' there is too much negative in respect of the really simplified handling over the limit (to me the cars just never bite back now, just behave themselves, I never feel like I am on the edge!) I suppose it's just exposing the limitations in the bare bones simplified tyre SIM that GT Sport is using, Shame really

It may be there on the wheel but I think it is much more obvious with the DS4. On race A a couple weeks ago, it was the Honda one make race at Kyoto, many people were having trouble getting the car thru the S's without spinning. I normally drive with my Fanatec wheel, for the heck of it I tried the DS4 after watching some of the top 10 replays wondering how guys were getting thru there at WOT without spinning. After trying a few laps with the DS4 I had my answer, it was all but impossible to spin the car with the DS4 but easy to do so with a wheel. With the wheel you had to be inch perfect to get thru at WOT, with the DS4 the margain was huge by comparison.

 

[ScottPuss20]

It may be there on the wheel but I think it is much more obvious with the DS4. On race A a couple weeks ago, it was the Honda one make race at Kyoto, many people were having trouble getting the car thru the S's without spinning. I normally drive with my Fanatec wheel, for the heck of it I tried the DS4 after watching some of the top 10 replays wondering how guys were getting thru there at WOT without spinning. After trying a few laps with the DS4 I had my answer, it was all but impossible to spin the car with the DS4 but easy to do so with a wheel. With the wheel you had to be inch perfect to get thru at WOT, with the DS4 the margain was huge by comparison.

When I was in a GT Sport league, one guy who used a wheel was doing far worse than me on a controller. He really struggled to get podiums, whilst I was regularly running at the front. Yet in the Project Cars 2 league, it is role reversal. That game clearly favours wheel users, and I find it difficult to compete for podiums. Gran Turismo has been specifically engineered to ensure that controller users can compete with wheel users. And in this case, even allow for better control. That's why I play Gran Turismo regularly and my friend does not.

 

[VBR]

I've only driven one car so far, but did notice that the 96 Evo on SH tyres doesn't oversteer like crazy when going into certain corners like the second Degner when using the pad anymore. It feels much more planted & natural. Haven't tried it with the wheel yet though...

I noticed some time ago that this car has started doing this again, & also the Diablo was incredibly stable on this update but has become very unstable again. All of this leads me to believe that they have updated the physics again without telling us.

I've still not tried it with a wheel yet. Really can't be bothered to set it all up. This is the only GT game that has me feeling this way...

Well, I finally got around to trying it with a wheel & what can I say other than try to express the absolute bitter disappointment I feel. Not only has the 96 Evo on CS tyres become unstable again with a pad, but now it feels the same way with the wheel (it never used to). They have totally ruined the driving experience for me. It was such fun on CS tyres, & now it's a horrendous drive.

Also, the problem with massive understeer causing me to have to turn the wheel loads has returned. I mentioned this in another thread, it doesn't even feel like understeer but more like the car's fitted with a different steering rack. This was something that was fixed in the second physics update, but now it's back.

Then there's the awful FFB. Yes. there is a little bit more detail there now, but nowhere near what GT6 had (I went back & had a go & it felt awesome). The biggest issue I have with the FFB is the unrealistic arcade style effects where the wheel "vibrates" when you get severe oversteer & then goes light when it gets even worse. I'm not even going to go into all the details as to why this kind of nonsense defies the laws of physics, just to say that GT Sport is the only game in the series where I don't wanna set up my wheel because of the awful FFB & that it's getting worse, not better.

Changed my vote from "Better" to "Much Worse".


🤬 👎

 

[fastone371]

I noticed some time ago that this car has started doing this again, & also the Diablo was incredibly stable on this update but has become very unstable again. All of this leads me to believe that they have updated the physics again without telling us.




Well, I finally got around to trying it with a wheel & what can I say other than try to express the absolute bitter disappointment I feel. Not only has the 96 Evo on CS tyres become unstable again with a pad, but now it feels the same way with the wheel (it never used to). They have totally ruined the driving experience for me. It was such fun on CS tyres, & now it's a horrendous drive.

Also, the problem with massive understeer causing me to have to turn the wheel loads has returned. I mentioned this in another thread, it doesn't even feel like understeer but more like the car's fitted with a different steering rack. This was something that was fixed in the second physics update, but now it's back.

Then there's the awful FFB. Yes. there is a little bit more detail there now, but nowhere near what GT6 had (I went back & had a go & it felt awesome). The biggest issue I have with the FFB is the unrealistic arcade style effects where the wheel "vibrates" when you get severe oversteer & then goes light when it gets even worse. I'm not even going to go into all the details as to why this kind of nonsense defies the laws of physics, just to say that GT Sport is the only game in the series where I don't wanna set up my wheel because of the awful FFB & that it's getting worse, not better.

Changed my vote from "Better" to "Much Worse".


🤬 👎

2 things I have noticed different recently is that slides are easier to catch with a wheel and now when you spin a car you can often get it to go 360° and get the car pointed in the correct direction. Before it seemed no matter what you did the car always stopped facing the wrong direction, kinda like there was a load of concrete in the trunk. The one thing that seems the same is that at certain angles no matter how fast you are traveling when you go into the grass and come back on track the car always reacts the exact same way and spins the exact same way.

 

[Jtheripper]

Is

I noticed some time ago that this car has started doing this again, & also the Diablo was incredibly stable on this update but has become very unstable again. All of this leads me to believe that they have updated the physics again without telling us.




Well, I finally got around to trying it with a wheel & what can I say other than try to express the absolute bitter disappointment I feel. Not only has the 96 Evo on CS tyres become unstable again with a pad, but now it feels the same way with the wheel (it never used to). They have totally ruined the driving experience for me. It was such fun on CS tyres, & now it's a horrendous drive.

Also, the problem with massive understeer causing me to have to turn the wheel loads has returned. I mentioned this in another thread, it doesn't even feel like understeer but more like the car's fitted with a different steering rack. This was something that was fixed in the second physics update, but now it's back.

Then there's the awful FFB. Yes. there is a little bit more detail there now, but nowhere near what GT6 had (I went back & had a go & it felt awesome). The biggest issue I have with the FFB is the unrealistic arcade style effects where the wheel "vibrates" when you get severe oversteer & then goes light when it gets even worse. I'm not even going to go into all the details as to why this kind of nonsense defies the laws of physics, just to say that GT Sport is the only game in the series where I don't wanna set up my wheel because of the awful FFB & that it's getting worse, not better.

Changed my vote from "Better" to "Much Worse".


🤬 👎

Is that true, gt6 had a more detailed feel than gts? And gts would be watered down..

 

[Beezer215]

Eh, somewhat. GT6 had a more dead wheel weight feel though and the pendulum effect was just atrocious. If you were going straight and let go of the wheel, it would violently go back and forth until you were into a wall.
Still fairly good feedback though.

 

[photonmonkey]

I had changed from 'normal' pad steering, left analogue stick to the 'tilt' function after a previous update as they had definitely dumbed down the steering/physics on pad, as for me it was far too easy to catch slides and made the game boring. if they have tweaked it again I might try the normal stick steering again and see if there is any difference. The tilt steering gives me a bit more of a controlled feel but is still far from ideal.

 

[VBR]

Is that true, gt6 had a more detailed feel than gts? And gts would be watered down..

The Force Feedback in less powerful steering wheels is clearer, sharper, crisper, & much more detailed in GT6 compared to GT Sport. The force pulling the wheel left or right as the car oversteers is also stronger, making it easier to catch slides. There is no unrealistic arcade effect that makes the wheel vibrate or makes it go light when you oversteer. I did 3 laps in the KTM Xbow in both GT6 & GT Sport, & the FFB in GT6 wins by a country mile IMHO.

 

[ARTAsean]

The Force Feedback in less powerful steering wheels is clearer, sharper, crisper, & much more detailed in GT6 compared to GT Sport. The force pulling the wheel left or right as the car oversteers is also stronger, making it easier to catch slides. There is no unrealistic arcade effect that makes the wheel vibrate or makes it go light when you oversteer. I did 3 laps in the KTM Xbow in both GT6 & GT Sport, & the FFB in GT6 wins by a country mile IMHO.

You must ask yourself if slides are easier to catch in GT6 because of better FFB, or simply because of a more forgiving arcade-like physics model.

A good companion to this theory is the launch physics in GT6 vs GTS. In GT6 the car launches straight as an arrow every time, whereas it’s quite difficult to launch most cars in GTS without TCS.

I’m not leaning one way or the other, it’s just something to think about.

 

[VBR]

You must ask yourself if slides are easier to catch in GT6 because of better FFB, or simply because of a more forgiving arcade-like physics model.

A good companion to this theory is the launch physics in GT6 vs GTS. In GT6 the car launches straight as an arrow every time, whereas it’s quite difficult to launch most cars in GTS without TCS.

I’m not leaning one way or the other, it’s just something to think about.

I find it very difficult to do the whole slide-pause-recovery thing when I get interrupted by an unrealistic vibration &/or sudden lightness on my FFB wheel that wouldn't be there in the real world. Some of it may be down to differences in physics models, but that's not the whole picture. I drove a Caterham 7 Superlight R500 in anger at a track day in 2009, I know what oversteer feels like without power steering in a car on hard slicks as well as road tyres, & it was easier to control than in a similar car in GT6 or GT Sport. The whole thing doesn't seem to be as much of an issue with racing or sports tyres, but mainly with comfort tyres, and it wasn't even an issue until recently.