The US War in Afghanistan

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Well that's much better than what it looked like. We live in a time where the debunk of stuff like this doesn't get circulated, so the new truth is that that guy was getting hanged by the Taliban - and there's a whole group of people who will probably never know otherwise.
It's so easy to deceive and so much more difficult to debunk, particularly when there's such an orchestrated effort to deceive running at all hours and on every platform imaginable. It's called firehosing and it isn't new as of the advent of social media, but social media makes it easier than it's ever been.

@ryzno this is why people implore you to take a minute and take in the information being given to you. If it seems sensational, there's a good chance it's deceitful.
 

McLaren

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Could've said that more politely. If I knew that was the case I would've gone.
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I mean, it is what it is. A lie that was pushed by right-wing talking heads to prey on emotion & cause disdain towards Biden. It apparently fooled Danoff too, so it accomplished its goal even more.

It's not much different from certain individuals pushing the narrative of us leaving Americans behind in Afghanistan to die & don't want to reveal a bunch of them chose to stay for their own reasons. It allows them like Ted Cruz to go as far as to fib even more about leaving hundreds (when it's close to a 100 according to reports) whilst simultaneously exposing their lack of awareness. Cruz left behind millions of Texans because the temperature got too cold for him & God forbid he might actually suffer alongside the rest of us during the winter storm.
 

Danoff

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It's so easy to deceive and so much more difficult to debunk, particularly when there's such an orchestrated effort to deceive running at all hours and on every platform imaginable. It's called firehosing and it isn't new as of the advent of social media, but social media makes it easier than it's ever been.

@ryzno this is why people implore you to take a minute and take in the information being given to you. If it seems sensational, there's a good chance it's deceitful.
I think that's what we are to @ryzno. He brought it here and made a splash with it knowing that if it was deceitful someone here would call it out. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit Ryzno, but at times it does seem like you treat this forum that way.

I kinda treat it that way too. It's one of the reasons that a discussion forum is more useful for this kind of stuff than facebook.

I mean, it is what it is. A lie that was pushed by right-wing talking heads to prey on emotion & cause disdain towards Biden. It apparently fooled Danoff too, so it accomplished its goal even more.
In my defense, I was lazy because regardless of whether it was what it looked like, it is fairly indicative of the situation. Truthy, I think it's called.
 
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21,898
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TexRex72
I think that's what we are to @ryzno. He brought it here and made a splash with it knowing that if it was deceitful someone here would call it out. Maybe I'm giving you too much credit Ryzno, but at times it does seem like you treat this forum that way.

I kinda treat it that way too. It's one of the reasons that a discussion forum is more useful for this kind of stuff than facebook.


In my defense, I was lazy because regardless of whether it was what it looked like, it is fairly indicative of the situation. Truthy, I think it's called.
I'd love for this to be the case.
 

ryzno

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@ryzno this is why people implore you to take a minute and take in the information being given to you. If it seems sensational, there's a good chance it's deceitful.
I have more important things to do than research every god dang thing I see. Regardless of it being incorrect and me being corrected.
My overall view of the entire situation hasn't changed.

Mikey thought the meme I mentioned about Atlanta was anti immigration and had no data so he never bothered to look for it. I shared the meme here and he gave it a like. Street goes both ways.

I honestly didn't know Danoff, my initial response was anger. But as you see the people with more patience than us will reverse whatever they do to find "the truth".
 
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21,898
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TexRex72
I have more important things to do than research every god dang thing I see. Regardless of it being incorrect and me being corrected.
Then be skeptical. Skepticism is human and it's healthy in reasonable doses, but like anything else it can be harmful if indulged in excess.
 

McLaren

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In my defense, I was lazy because regardless of whether it was what it looked like, it is fairly indicative of the situation. Truthy, I think it's called.
I'll re-word it better. It was shared, Ryzno saw it and re-shared it, and then you saw it and also drew conclusions based on (unknown to you) false pretenses. There by, succeeding more in its goal by those pushing it as something it's not & wanting folks to draw to conclusions they wanted people to come to, instead of any actual explanation behind it. And the more people fooled, the "better".
 
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Danoff

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I'll re-word it better. It was shared, Ryzno saw it and re-shared it, and then you saw it and also drew conclusions based on (unknown to you) false pretenses. There by, succeeding more in its goal by those pushing it as something it's not & wanting folks to draw to conclusions they wanted people to come to, instead of any actual explanation behind it. And the more people fooled, the "better".
I'll take the cricism.

I play a game which could be titled "even if that were true" (or arguendo) where I don't waste time debunking someone's premise if it doesn't support their conclusion. If I can see a way to torpedo someone's argument entirely based on what they've placed on the table, not only does it save me work, but it doesn't require convincing them that they're wrong. In this case, I'll grant you that it played into the hands of the people who circulate this stuff to begin with.
 
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ryzno

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Ok, but how about the stuff you post?
Do you really need an answer to that? You already know the answer.

Seriously, I watched my home town get taken over by illegal immigrants, destroyed, turned into a small city riddled with crime by majority blacks now and y'all have the audacity to bring links and stats and maps and say I'm wrong.
You can't fact check everything.

Y'all wonder why I get pissed off when y'all say I'm wrong when I try to tell y'all something I experienced first hand, not a meme, not a news article, actually living it. But that's not good enough for y'all and y'all sit on your high horses and go haha ryzno wrong ryzno dumb.
 
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21,898
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I'll take the cricism.

I play a game which could be titled "even if that were true" (or arguendo) where I don't waste time debunking someone's premise if it doesn't support their conclusion. If I can see a way to torpedo someone's argument entirely based on what they've placed on the table, not only does it save me work, but it doesn't require convincing them that they're wrong. In this case, I'll grant you that it played into the hands of the people who circulate this stuff to begin with.
Your mind sounds like a fascinating place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

Edit: I mean this as a conpliment.
 
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ryzno

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If you cannot check whether something is a fact, it isn't a fact.
Why does it feel like you only pop up when I post something?
So what I witnessed for I'll say the last 25 years is lies cause you can't fact check it?
 

Famine

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Why does it feel like you only pop up when I post something?
No idea. Hope the punchline is better than the setup.
So what I witnessed for I'll say the last 25 years is lies cause you can't fact check it?
Something not being a fact doesn't mean it's a lie. It just means it's not a fact.
 

UKMikey

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Mikey thought the meme I mentioned about Atlanta was anti immigration and had no data so he never bothered to look for it. I shared the meme here and he gave it a like. Street goes both ways.
I didn't post the like because of the meme. I was just glad you read my articles and looked at the other side of the argument.
 
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Danoff

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Seriously, I watched my home town get taken over by illegal immigrants, destroyed, turned into a small city riddled with crime by majority blacks
I assume this is not atlanta where all of the non-white people are destroying everything. What city are we talking about?
 

Danoff

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Your mind sounds like a fascinating place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

Edit: I mean this as a conpliment.

"This is my brain, and I live in it..."

Not Perfect - Tim Minchin. Good song.
 

UKMikey

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😲 Who is this woman and what has she done with Ann Coulter?!?

 

Danoff

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😲 Who is this woman and what has she done with Ann Coulter?!?

Even when she's right she's wrong. It's true that Biden, knowing that it would be ugly, pulled us out of Afghanistan, and that this was Trump's agenda. But Trump also set the stage for the exit.

This is the problem with playing one side or the other. Trump laid a terrible foundation for our exit from Afghanistan, but he did lay one. And Biden executed on that terrible foundation, but he did execute. Trump and Biden (and their predecessors) deserve blame for how it was handled, but Trump and Biden also both get any credit for getting out. Trump made it a priority, he didn't have to.

Biden doesn't take all the blame, but he also doesn't take all the credit. It's a mixed bag. Nuance people! Coulter is such a tool.
 

Danoff

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What's up with this Ryzno?


Looks like disabled helicopters. It's not clear to me from that report whether that includes any and all vehicles given to the Afghanistan government prior to their collapse, but it does appear that some effort was put into preventing what was held at the airbase from being used by the Taliban.
 

ryzno

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What's up with this Ryzno?


Looks like disabled helicopters. It's not clear to me from that report whether that includes any and all vehicles given to the Afghanistan government prior to their collapse, but it does appear that some effort was put into preventing what was held at the airbase from being used by the Taliban.
I don't know, maybe they were already broken, like from action and we left them since they were useless.
 

Danoff

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I don't know, maybe they were already broken, like from action and we left them since they were useless.
article
A U.S. Department of Defense spokesperson told Fox News on Wednesday that "we disabled/demilitarized that equipment at Hamid Karzai International Airport prior to our departure."
 
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McLaren

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Given it shares they found the "sabotaged" vehicles at Kabul, I'm assuming the Afghan military had already abandoned the fight when the decision was made to dismantle those vehicles.
 
21,898
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@ryzno

What's up with this Ryzno?


Looks like disabled helicopters. It's not clear to me from that report whether that includes any and all vehicles given to the Afghanistan government prior to their collapse, but it does appear that some effort was put into preventing what was held at the airbase from being used by the Taliban.
Amazing. Fox News is so anti-Biden that they're acting as a mouthpiece for the aggrieved militant Taliban.

(This is intended as sarcasm, but as I look at it on the screen, it really doesn't seem absurd enough.)
 
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I mostly like this. The justifications are good even if I'm not 100% in agreement with the order.

Who to blame for the failed war in Afghanistan? In ascending order:

4) Biden administration, for bungling planning, execution, coordination and communication of withdrawal despite having made the right strategic call on ending the war.

3) Trump administration, for legitimizing and strengthening the Taliban while getting nothing in return, putting Biden between a rock and a hard place.

2) Obama administration, for not having the courage and leadership to end the war after killing Bin Laden in 2011.

1) Bush administration, for allowing mission creep to set in and creating this unholy mess in the first place.

And...

BONUS: The foreign policy establishment (aka the "blob"), for encouraging the worst instincts of successive administrations and selling never-ending wars to an electorate that does not want to fight them.
I think I put Obama above Bush. I never wanted the whole thing to start, but I think the death of Bin Laden was the ideal time to call it, save for cleanup, and I think I condemn him more for not ending it than I do Bush for starting it.

I was actually putting Biden above Trump here, which felt weird (I had to force tunnel vision to do it), and I even removed kneecapping the SIV/asylum process because it wasn't really part of the withdrawal bungle. It was tangential. But Bremmer makes a good point here, and the way he and his feckless cronies began the process made the mess more of a foregone conclusion than it had to be justifies the placement. I think Biden absolutely ****ed things up, but I also think some of the mismanagement has been tangential to the withdrawal and is subject to presently unknown factors.

But that's my $0.02, and I think it could easily change as an investigation bears fruit.

...

Then there's this oozing sack of ****:


Republican Rep. Scott Perry says he opposes an increase in the number of Afghan refugees allowed into the U.S. because he worries that without stringent vetting it could lead to “little girls raped and killed in the streets.”

Perry was asked by journalist Greta Van Susteren on her “Full Court Press” show Sunday why he had voted against the ALLIES Act, a bipartisan bill to expedite visas for Afghan refugees and increase the number that would be allowed into the country.

“Because I don't think it's appropriate to bring poorly vetted people from an Islamic state to the United States of America,” he said. “I represent the United States of America and American citizens, and it's my job and I think it's this Congress's job to ensure their safety.”

“Because I don't think it's appropriate to bring poorly vetted people from an Islamic state to the United States of America,” he said. “I represent the United States of America and American citizens, and it's my job and I think it's this Congress's job to ensure their safety.”

Perry claimed the bill would expand the program “very broadly” because it included families of interpreters and others who’d helped coalition forces, saying that “entire families and every person they knew that maybe did some menial work for American contractors” shouldn’t be included. He then claimed that some Afghan interpreters who’d worked with Americans had turned on them in terror attacks, while warning of violence against Americans if the Special Immigrant Visa (SIV) program was expanded to help more Afghans fleeing the Taliban to settle in the U.S.

“Even when we were talking about interpreters that work with the military, there was also plenty of evidence that they would turn on their Americans and actually be part of the complex or less-than-complex attacks against the very Americans they were working with. So I found this highly, highly questionable and I wanted to see it tightened up very much before I would sign my name onto it,” Perry said. “I'm not going to be responsible for seeing our little girls raped and killed in the streets because we wanted to bring people that are poorly vetted into the United States."

Perry added that the rapid collapse of the Afghan army showed soldiers who’d fought alongside NATO troops had “changed sides, essentially” to support the Taliban. Over the last few weeks, the United States evacuated roughly 120,000 people from Afghanistan in an effort that ended on Monday, most of them Afghans.

Perry’s office didn’t respond to requests for comment. The full exchange can be seen here:

[link to outside content]

Perry, who served in the Army National Guard for 40 years, was one of just 16 House Republicans to vote against bill. It would have removed some requirements for Afghan refugees to apply for the SIV program that was causing delays and backlogs for those trying to secure visas before the country fell, and would increase the total number of visas available from 11,000 to 19,000.

The bill was introduced by Colorado Democratic Rep. Jason Crow along with 24 Republican co-sponsors, passed the House in a 407-16 vote in late July, and awaits Senate action. All of the 16 members who voted against the bill were Republicans.

When pushed by Van Susteren about whether the U.S. has a moral obligation to Afghan allies whose lives might be in danger in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, Perry said, “Of course we have some obligation to them”—but he added it should only come after all Americans are extracted from the country, as well as “extreme vetting” to make sure they wouldn’t turn on their American hosts.

Perry is one of Congress’ most controversial GOP members, with a penchant for inflammatory rhetoric.

“I think it’s right that we look at every single person who has been relocated to one of these other countries because they want to get out of the terrorist reign of the Taliban. But we also must understand that the Taliban, ISIS-Khoresan group, [and] al Qaeda want to embed their operatives within that population. So America really has to be diligent in making sure that vetting happens appropriately,” he said. “If there’s any question whatsoever about an individual’s regard and care for peace and tranquility and being peaceful as a potential American citizen, then I think we have to take pause.”
It takes something extra ****ing special to stand out in the Cretin Caucus, and this ****er has it.
 

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So I'm watching Turning Point on Netflix and they're interviewing this Massoud guy, the former VP of Afghanistan, and the brother of the former freedom fighter who fought against the Soviets and then the Taliban before the US showed up. And former VP Massoud is sitting in this fancy office giving this interview on history and whatnot, and I'm like wait a second...who is this guy again? When was this interview?

I got a feeling that office ain't his anymore lol. I looked up some news articles and apparently former VP Massoud and others are once again holed up in a valley prepared to resist the Taliban, just like they were doing 25 years ago.

Zero progress has been made, at least from his perspective. We helped this dude fight the Soviets, then we won and left, and left him and others to a civil war and resistance against the Taliban who eventually partially allowed 9/11 to brew. And now some dumbass has purposely gone and given the country back to the Taliban.

Is it literally 1995 right now? These are the exact same conditions that led to 9/11 in the first place. The vast majority of Americans believe it was time to leave Afghanistan and a deal was made, but when you review the history you really wonder why the deal was made with the Taliban. I don't know what the bigger picture is going to end up being but I suppose we're going to find out eventually.

It's so damn confusing but at least we're out.

I mostly like this. The justifications are good even if I'm not 100% in agreement with the order.


I think I put Obama above Bush. I never wanted the whole thing to start, but I think the death of Bin Laden was the ideal time to call it, save for cleanup, and I think I condemn him more for not ending it than I do Bush for starting it.

I was actually putting Biden above Trump here, which felt weird (I had to force tunnel vision to do it), and I even removed kneecapping the SIV/asylum process because it wasn't really part of the withdrawal bungle. It was tangential. But Bremmer makes a good point here, and the way he and his feckless cronies began the process made the mess more of a foregone conclusion than it had to be justifies the placement. I think Biden absolutely ****ed things up, but I also think some of the mismanagement has been tangential to the withdrawal and is subject to presently unknown factors.

But that's my $0.02, and I think it could easily change as an investigation bears fruit.
Episode 2 went over the Authorization for Use of Military Force. That was the first mistake. A war was absolutely the right call, but the AUMF was a serious problem that only one congress person voted against. All the rest of them were angry and vengeful, and didn't bother addressing the AUMF. I was far too young to have any serious opinions or knowledge about the history leading up to the war, and by the time I was old enough to know or care it had all become a simple fact of life. The Administration sent the AUMF to Congress and Congress failed at their job. Congress should get just as much blame for causing this as Bush does and as Obama does for not ending it properly. And then we hired a Nazi who negotiated a crap deal with Nazislamists, and now Uncle Joe our lord and savior has to clean up the pieces.

Grab your popcorn bud, I'm not sure how old you are but I'd guess you've got about 30 more years of watching the **** show. I've got maybe 50 if I stop drinking.
 
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