The "war on police" in America

Johnnypenso
As you should because he eliminated the police in 3 of your 5 statistics. Who compiled this study anyway? How much police involvement is there in each of those numbers? What is the source of the data?
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As I don't for a few reasons I've posted already, the system is like a machine that can run you over without discrimination.

The chart I found on a cnn article, it was to small to read so I reverse googled the image and that is the one I posted, saying that it's only 3 out of 5 might as well say to me that it is 1 out of 100 which is 1 too many.

There is no excuse for seeing an innocent man incarcerated, there is no excuse for the harassment of an innocent man, these are my beliefs. I would rather see 10 guilty run free than see 1 innocent caught up.
 
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fumunaplz
As I don't for a few reasons I've posted already, the system is like a machine that can run you over without discrimination.

The chart I found on a cnn article, it was to small to read so I reverse googled the image and that is the one I posted, saying that it's only 3 out of 5 might as well say to me that it is 1 out of 100 which is 1 too many.

There is no excuse for seeing an innocent man incarcerated, there is no excuse for the harassment of an innocent man, these are my beliefs. I would rather see 10 guilty run free than see 1 innocent caught up.
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I'd rather see the guilty all caught and innocent all go free myself. And 3/5 doesn't imply anything other than how much the statistics appear to have anything to do with police involvement, the subject of this thread.

Who compiled this study anyway? How much police involvement is there in each of those numbers? What is the source of the data?
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I'm looking for links here.
 
Johnnypenso
I'd rather see the guilty all caught and innocent all go free myself. And 3/5 doesn't imply anything other than how much the statistics appear to have anything to do with police involvement, the subject of this thread.

I'm looking for links here.
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Who would not want to see guilty punished with innocent left alone? I'm not seeing your point on that, what you are saying is that a 60% rate of wrongly convicted at the hand of the police is acceptable when I say it is not.

Look and you shall see 👍
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/2...eople-exonerated-in-23-years-researchers-say/
 
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Encyclopedia
Just a quick question about police training in the states. I read somewhere that the amount of training varies from state to state and that in some it can be as little as 3 months and that it's rarely more than 1.5 years.

Is that true?
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In Michigan, it's either 2 or 4 years depending on the track you go through, then you typically end up working in a county jail for a length of time until you move onto road patrol. It takes less time if you have a criminal justice degree from a college or university. I'm not sure how it works in other states or if it even varies that much.
 
That is a very good question. I have to put it forward to my police uncle the next time that I see him. I do know, however, that while many cities use police academies that isn't affiliated with their city, some jurisdictions (such as Fort Worth, which is nearby for example) DO have their own police academy that cadets do have to go through.

To apply for a Texas wide force, like the Texas Rangers for example, you have to have at least 8 years experience with a law enforcement agency and must obtain a rank of at least Trooper II in the Texas Department of Public Safety police force. Military experience doesn't count to the 8 years, so you have to earn them the hard way.
 
Sanji Himura
That is a very good question. I have to put it forward to my police uncle the next time that I see him. I do know, however, that while many cities use police academies that isn't affiliated with their city, some jurisdictions (such as Fort Worth, which is nearby for example) DO have their own police academy that cadets do have to go through.

To apply for a Texas wide force, like the Texas Rangers for example, you have to have at least 8 years experience with a law enforcement agency and must obtain a rank of at least Trooper II in the Texas Department of Public Safety police force. Military experience doesn't count to the 8 years, so you have to earn them the hard way.
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Okay, I got in touch with him, he said that he underwent 5 months of academy training (standard in Texas) and an additional five months of field training (for his jurisdiction). I suspect that 10 months of training is average in Texas.
 
fumunaplz
I'm not seeing your point on that, what you are saying is that a 60% rate of wrongly convicted at the hand of the police is acceptable when I say it is not.
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Where did I say it was acceptable? Quote me please.
Look and you shall see 👍
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/2...eople-exonerated-in-23-years-researchers-say/
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I don't see anything here that says that police are solely responsible for 60% of wrongful convictions. Can you point me to that statistic specifically? Also, can you show me how many of these involved deliberate intent to deceive?
 
Johnnypenso
Where did I say it was acceptable? Quote me please.
I don't see anything here that says that police are solely responsible for 60% of wrongful convictions. Can you point me to that statistic specifically? Also, can you show me how many of these involved deliberate intent to deceive?
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This sort of argument is not productive to the conversation in any way, I provided you with the information you asked for, what you make of that information is up to you. If you feel that I have put words in your mouth I apologize, I'm not the one that came up with this 3 out of 5 theory lol.

I will say this much, it is blatantly obvious that our justice system wrongly convicts people, wrongly accuses people, is harassing and so on, the vast majority of people's first contact with this system is with the police so it should not be surprising that they are the first to be attacked or questioned for corruption.

I believe everything that I have said in this thread is very relevant to the so called 'war on police'.
 
Formula1269
These incidents seem to happen more in red states...
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Source please.

fumunaplz
This sort of argument is not productive to the conversation in any way, I provided you with the information you asked for, what you make of that information is up to you. If you feel that I have put words in your mouth I apologize, I'm not the one that came up with this 3 out of 5 theory lol.
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You provided a link to a study. I'm not going to go over an entire study to pull out one statistic on your behalf. You're making the case of police corruption and wrongful conviction, you pull out the relevant statistics directly and make your case.
I will say this much, it is blatantly obvious that our justice system wrongly convicts people, wrongly accuses people, is harassing and so on, the vast majority of people's first contact with this system is with the police so it should not be surprising that they are the first to be attacked or questioned for corruption.
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Of course, they are human beings and human beings aren't perfect. With 900,000 cops on the street in the U.S. there is bound to be hundreds or thousands of bad apples. Who is denying this?
I believe everything that I have said in this thread is very relevant to the so called 'war on police'.
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What is the relevance? Are you saying that police corruption is a causal factor in the war on police?
 
fumunaplz
table-13.jpg
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Mistaken ID, most likely citizens, false accusation, some of that must come from police, false confession, comes from police, false forensic evidence, police, official misconduct, some of that must come from police.

I really can't figure out what you want me to say so let's go this route, you are right and I am wrong, none of these things contribute to a hatred or mistrust of the police 👍
 
fumunaplz
Mistaken ID, most likely citizens, false accusation, some of that must come from police, false confession, comes from police, false forensic evidence, police, official misconduct, some of that must come from police.

I really can't figure out what you want me to say so let's go this route, you are right and I am wrong, none of these things contribute to a hatred or mistrust of the police 👍
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So now it's gone from "60% rate of wrongly convicted at the hand of the police" to "some of that must come from police". In other words you have no idea what the actual numbers are, which is my point. No one denies corruption at all levels but it doesn't forward the conversation to just throw out made up numbers to support your cause.
 
Johnnypenso
People turned out to show support:
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I have seen scenes like this at places where some unfortunate person has lost their life and I can't help but think a lot of these people are just grief tourists and would turn up at any given place to have a bit of pity chucked there way. They can't all be family and friends.
I know it's wrong to think like that but I can't help it. Yes I feel for someone who has lost their life and I feel for their families but to go stand and mourn someone they didn't know is bordering weird to me. What next funeral crashers? oh that already happens in the uk don't know about anywhere else.
Am I heartless or just missing the point I am not sure but you have got to be truthful in how you feel.
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If a cop is that paranoid that he or she thinks everything is a gun(like getting your wallet, a toy, your hands) they should quit or be on desk duty.
Old saying of "Measure twice, cut once" applies.
 
Grayfox
If a cop is that paranoid that he or she thinks everything is a gun(like getting your wallet, a toy, your hands) they should quit or be on desk duty.
Old saying of "Measure twice, cut once" applies.
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If you respond to a call about someone pointing a weapon at people and when you make contact the suspect reaches for one of the above pictured weapons, would you be able to tell in the split second an Officer has between defending himself or potentially dying which one is real and which one is fake?
 
peobryant
TDHmVJ0.jpg


If you respond to a call about someone pointing a weapon at people and when you make contact the suspect reaches for one of the above pictured weapons, would you be able to tell in the split second an Officer has between defending himself or potentially dying which one is real and which one is fake?
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I'll grant that that's a tough call, but when it's a video game controller?
 
peobryant
TDHmVJ0.jpg


If you respond to a call about someone pointing a weapon at people and when you make contact the suspect reaches for one of the above pictured weapons, would you be able to tell in the split second an Officer has between defending himself or potentially dying which one is real and which one is fake?
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When it is a toy truck, a hand doing the gun shape.

So why is cops life worth more than average joe?

Yes police help protect the public, but they have a high risk job, like anyone working at heights, with explosives, on train tracks, ect.
Risks come with the job.
So being cop makes it acceptable for them to mistake anything as a gun the public must put up with it?

As for the situation above wouldn't taking cover, calling for backup make more sense?
 
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Grayfox
When it is a toy truck, a hand doing the gun shape.

So why is cops life worth more than average joe?

Yes police help protect the public, but they have a high risk job, like anyone working at heights, with explosives, on train tracks, ect.
Risks come with the job.
So being cop makes it acceptable for them to mistake anything as a gun the public must put up with it?

As for the situation above wouldn't taking cover, calling for backup make more sense?
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It might, if there wasn't an innocent bystander beside the person with a gun or other people nearby within shooting range. If you take cover after you see a gun and it turns out to be a gun and the person beside them gets shot, then what? If the gun is pointed at you and you get shot, nothing stops the person with the gun from running away and shooting other people. Who will be blamed then if other innocent victims are shot?

In this case, from what we've seen so far, a mistake was made. We'll have to wait and see how the facts play out.
 
BobK
I'll grant that that's a tough call, but when it's a video game controller?
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I briefly skimmed the article, but does it say why the police were called in the first place?

Grayfox
When it is a toy truck, a hand doing the gun shape.

So why is cops life worth more than average joe?

Yes police help protect the public, but they have a high risk job, like anyone working at heights, with explosives, on train tracks, ect.
Risks come with the job.
So being cop makes it acceptable for them to mistake anything as a gun the public must put up with it?

As for the situation above wouldn't taking cover, calling for backup make more sense?
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Can you post some articles showing where cops have shot people with toy trucks or making a shape with their hand and mistaking it for a gun? I don't recall reading anything like that but I could easily miss some articles.

Who said a cops life is worth more than the average Joe? We put our lives in danger everyday in order to protect the average Joe from people who would do him and his family harm. Sometimes mistakes are made and that is very unfortunate, but the millions of stops that are made everyday generally happen with no issues, some here make it seem like cops just randomly pull their service weapons out at every stop and shoot if they see anything.

As far as taking cover in the above situation, many times that isn't available when we're approaching someone. It is either shoot or be shot and if someone is going to shoot a cop I guarantee they will have no problem shooting an average Joe. Hesitation is what gets us killed.
 
peobryant
TDHmVJ0.jpg


If you respond to a call about someone pointing a weapon at people and when you make contact the suspect reaches for one of the above pictured weapons, would you be able to tell in the split second an Officer has between defending himself or potentially dying which one is real and which one is fake?
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It's amazing in the UK cops face idiots with guns more and more yet very very few ever get shot they deal with it and our cops are not armed as a force. I know some are in airports but the normal beat/traffic cop isn't.
 
justin credible
It's amazing in the UK cops face idiots with guns more and more yet very very few ever get shot they deal with it and our cops are not armed as a force. I know some are in airports but the normal beat/traffic cop isn't.
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Who do you think has a higher chance of getting shot, a cop in the USA or UK?

I guarantee a cop in the USA deals with people with guns far more often than our brethren across the pond and more often than not, far more often, the situation is dealt with without deadly force.
 
peobryant
Who do you think has a higher chance of getting shot, a cop in the USA or UK?

I guarantee a cop in the USA deals with people with guns far more often than our brethren across the pond and more often than not, far more often, the situation is dealt with without deadly force.
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Good to hear the situation is dealt with without deadly force. I am in the UK and can only judge on what I see on tv etc ref US police. They seem to rely on the gun for backup a lot more than is necessary.
Yes granted there is more chance of dealing with a gun totting joe public in the US but when cops are nervous before anything as happened or need to aim a gun at a man with a pack of ciggies in his hand they really shouldn't be cops at all.
 
peobryant
Can you post some articles showing where cops have shot people with toy trucks or making a shape with their hand and mistaking it for a gun? I don't recall reading anything like that but I could easily miss some articles.
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Are you saying that until now you have always thought it was cops shooting kids with toy guns?

In the most recent story, the autistic man, who police claim they were aiming at, had a toy truck. The therapist, that actually got shot, can be heard in the video telling police repeatedly that the man did not have a gun, but a toy truck.

In the hand like a gun story, I believe the guy kind of set himself up for it, by allegedly acting hostile (the video starts after the claimed vehicle ramming), and then yelling, "You're going to have to kill me..." Whether he deserved it is a no, but he did act in a fairly stupid way that resulted in the action.
 
peobryant
I briefly skimmed the article, but does it say why the police were called in the first place?
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Yes, it does. The police were there to serve a probation violation warrant for the boy’s father. The boy answered the door with a Wii controller in his hand, and an officer shot him dead.

From the article:
The eyewitnesses on the scene clearly state that he had a Wii controller in his hand. He heard a knock at the door. He asked who it was, there was no response so he opened the door and upon opening the door he was immediately shot in the chest.
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