The World's Best Car

[Omnis]

It was an easy tossup between the 911 and the vette. I picked 911. It's probably the most famous car in the world, the most raced car in the world, and although I can't fit in one, I believe it's the best (on the list).

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I guess if Korea deserves a spot, does'nt Russia, China, and the Netherlands deserve one too?
If the Tiburon is an acceptable option, certainly these countries deserve a shot as well.
And I don't think Tiburon's have existed long enough to say for certain that "they'll drive forever", or anything of that sort. Especially most electrical problems don't factor in until a car is older than Hyundai itself.
So yes, I do think it is obsurd to list the Tiburon as a possibility, unless you're listing a car from every country with automakers present, at least producing autos that we've heard of.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I guess if Korea deserves a spot, does'nt Russia, China, and the Netherlands deserve one too?
If the Tiburon is an acceptable option, certainly these countries deserve a shot as well.
And I don't think Tiburon's have existed long enough to say for certain that "they'll drive forever", or anything of that sort. Especially most electrical problems don't factor in until a car is older than Hyundai itself.
So yes, I do think it is obsurd to list the Tiburon as a possibility, unless you're listing a car from every country with automakers present, at least producing autos that we've heard of.

Name some cars out of them 3 countires that can compete with the corvette, porsche 911, mini and all the rest of the cars you can vote for in terms of popularity and performance.

 

[Dave A]

There could have been an extral poll for the rest of the worlds manufacturers, but personally, I think it would have just been wasting time with that. the Hyundai Coupe is actually a decent car, granted it's not the worlds best, but there are some decent Korean cars like the Coupe and like the Spirra, unlike cars from China. As for the Coupe's life, there's plenty with well over 100k miles on them, that's plenty of miles to spot recurring faults across the range.

 

[Famine]

I guess if Korea deserves a spot, does'nt Russia, China, and the Netherlands deserve one too?

Name, without Google, TWO good cars from Russia, China and the Netherlands. In fact, just name two cars...

All the other countries have competitors for the title and while Korea isn't necessarily vying for the crown, its representative had to beat other vehicles to get there and can actually be considered to be good (looks nice, drives nice, reliable, comfortable, relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain - it's the all-rounder of the bunch).

No country gets automatic qualification to the World Cup (bar the hosts) - and no car should get automatic qualification by virtue of being the only car from that territory anyone's ever heard of.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

Name, without Google, TWO good cars from Russia, China and the Netherlands. In fact, just name two cars...

All the other countries have competitors for the title and while Korea isn't necessarily vying for the crown, its representative had to beat other vehicles to get there and can actually be considered to be good (looks nice, drives nice, reliable, comfortable, relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain - it's the all-rounder of the bunch).

No country gets automatic qualification to the World Cup (bar the hosts) - and no car should get automatic qualification by virtue of being the only car from that territory anyone's ever heard of.

1. I could'nt name 2 cars from Korea, without GT4.
2. Spyker C8 seems just as good of a nomination.
3. What does Korea do to get nominated?

Name some cars out of them 3 countires that can compete with the corvette, porsche 911, mini and all the rest of the cars you can vote for in terms of popularity and performance.

Are you suggesting the Tiburon can compete? if so, why the lack of votes?

There could have been an extral poll for the rest of the worlds manufacturers, but personally, I think it would have just been wasting time with that. the Hyundai Coupe is actually a decent car, granted it's not the worlds best, but there are some decent Korean cars like the Coupe and like the Spirra, unlike cars from China. As for the Coupe's life, there's plenty with well over 100k miles on them, that's plenty of miles to spot recurring faults across the range.

the coupe and the Spirra did'nt make it, which means the Tiburon was decided to be the best of the bunch.
as for reliability, mileage is'nt everything. Time matters as well. even if there's 5,000 with 200 grand on the clock, there's plenty of cars from most every manufacture with that.
Things like rust, electrical, paint, and a few other problems require time, rather than milage.

 

[Dave A]

The Coupe did make it, that's what the Tiburion is called here. I can appreciate your point about time though.

 

[Famine]

1. I could'nt name 2 cars from Korea, without GT4.

That suggests to me a problem of familiarity. Hyundai and Kia have been selling vehicles in the US for quite some time now - something which cannot be said of Spyker, Lada or SAIC.

2. Spyker C8 seems just as good of a nomination.

Why? It has absolutely nothing to compete against, for a start. Read the last paragraph of my previous post.

3. What does Korea do to get nominated?

It's a bulk car manufacturer which sells vehicles overseas. Here's the top 15 countries by vehicle production (in thousands) for you:

1. United States of America 11,524
2. Japan 10,064
3. Germany 5,543
4. China 5,067
5. South Korea 3,657
6. France 3,495
7. Spain 2,677
8. Canada 2,624
9. Brazil 2,375
10. United Kingdom 1,783
11. Mexico 1,607
12. India 1,406
13. Russia 1,264
14. Thailand 1,110
15. Italy 995

China do not sell their cars overseas. Canada make a handful of specialist vehicles and US marques. Brazil and Mexico produce mainly foreign marques. Russia do not sell their cars overseas. Thailand's production is all down to a single company (which is quite scary) making Isuzu clones.

Remove those 6 from the top 15 and you have... Nine. The nine nations represented by this poll and the ten weeks of prior nation-based vehicle nomination, voting and final voting.

the coupe and the Spirra did'nt make it, which means the Tiburon was decided to be the best of the bunch.

The Tiburon IS the Coupe.

Incidentally, do you know what Hyundai's warranty is on the Tiburon in the USA is?

 

[LeadSlead#2]

That suggests to me a problem of familiarity. Hyundai and Kia have been selling vehicles in the US for quite some time now - something which cannot be said of Spyker, Lada or SAIC.

But I don't pay attention to them.
I do this for a reason. They offer nothing other cars dont, not even the warranty.

Why? It has absolutely nothing to compete against, for a start. Read the last paragraph of my previous post.

Why does that matter? it does in the "world" catagory, and that's what we're getting down to in this thread, right?

It's a bulk car manufacturer which sells vehicles overseas. Here's the top 15 countries by vehicle production (in thousands) for you:

1. United States of America 11,524
2. Japan 10,064
3. Germany 5,543
4. China 5,067
5. South Korea 3,657
6. France 3,495
7. Spain 2,677
8. Canada 2,624
9. Brazil 2,375
10. United Kingdom 1,783
11. Mexico 1,607
12. India 1,406
13. Russia 1,264
14. Thailand 1,110
15. Italy 995

China do not sell their cars overseas. Canada make a handful of specialist vehicles and US marques. Brazil and Mexico produce mainly foreign marques. Russia do not sell their cars overseas. Thailand's production is all down to a single company (which is quite scary) making Isuzu clones.

Remove those 6 from the top 15 and you have... Nine. The nine nations represented by this poll and the ten weeks of prior nation-based vehicle nomination, voting and final voting.

So why does a vehicle need to be sold overseas to be the "best in the world"? Getting sent overseas does not make the car better, does it? Does'nt that simply mean there isnt as high a demand for it?
(if demand counts, where's the camry?)

The Tiburon IS the Coupe.

Incidentally, do you know what Hyundai's warranty is on the Tiburon in the USA is?

1. I assumed the Tiburon and "coupe" were different based on other people's posts insinuating a difference.
2. 10 years 100,000 miles. Thanks, but no thanks, they are'nt the only company to offer that warranty, Famine.
P.S. powertrain warranty are generally crap, unless major engine/trans mishaps occur, (i.e., blown head gasket, seized engine, cracked gears) which is very seldom in any car, even ones with 4/48000 warrantys. Also remember that all the commonly broken parts, including, but not limited to, clutch, flywheel, clutch cables/hydraulic mechanisms, cam bearings, timing chains/belts, water pumps, and even some head gaskets, are usually not covered by "powertrain" warrantys.

 

[1X83Z]

Incidentally, do you know what Hyundai's warranty is on the Tiburon in the USA is?[/color][/b]

Bumper to bumper: 5/60,000
- tied with Kia and Mitsubishi for the longest in the business.
Powertrain: 10/100,000
- tied with Kia and Mitsubishi for the longest in the business.
Corrosion: 7/unlimited
- Audi, BMW, Mini, and Volkswagen offer the longest - 12/unlimited. Hyundai's is quite average in this situation.
Roadside: 5/unlimited
- Mercedes offers an unlimited/unlimited roadside warranty (presumably non-transferrable) - otherwise Hyundai ties Mitsubishi for the longest in the business.

 

[SagarisGTB]

at the corvette being the second best car in the world.

Name, without Google, TWO good cars from Russia, China and the Netherlands. In fact, just name two cars...

Spyker C4 and Spyker C8 (good cars). What do I win?

And you all forgot Spain, Czechy and Polska. Not that a Polonez should be anywhere near a best car in the world poll.

 

[Famine]

But I don't pay attention to them.

*shrug* Not my problem then.

Why does that matter? it does in the "world" catagory, and that's what we're getting down to in this thread, right?

No - otherwise we'd just have a single "World's Best Car" thread.

I suggest you read the preceding threads I linked you to a while ago.

So why does a vehicle need to be sold overseas to be the "best in the world"? Getting sent overseas does not make the car better, does it? Does'nt that simply mean there isnt as high a demand for it?

Given that China are the 4th largest car-producing nation on Earth and don't sell overseas (with maybe a couple of recent and proposed exceptions), that would seem to be fallacious reasoning. There's a LOT of demand...

Here's why being sold overseas matters:

Have you ever driven/touched/seen/seen a review of a Kamaz? Why not?

(if demand counts, where's the camry?)

It had its chance in the Japanese Car thread and didn't win - the MX-5 taking that crown, ahead of the Skyline.

2. 10 years 100,000 miles. Thanks, but no thanks, they are'nt the only company to offer that warranty, Famine.
P.S. powertrain warranty are generally crap, unless major engine/trans mishaps occur, (i.e., blown head gasket, seized engine, cracked gears) which is very seldom in any car, even ones with 4/48000 warrantys. Also remember that all the commonly broken parts, including, but not limited to, clutch, flywheel, clutch cables/hydraulic mechanisms, cam bearings, timing chains/belts, water pumps, and even some head gaskets, are usually not covered by "powertrain" warrantys.

Smashing. I was pointing out that when you said some parts break with age rather than mileage, Hyundai also have that covered. Whether or not other manufacturers offer it is of no concern to me - merely the point that some parts have a warranty equal in length to a twelfth of the complete existence of the automobile.

Incidentally, isn't the Hyundai Tucson the car with the fewest warranty claims per vehicle in the US right now?

 

[GT4_Rule]

The Corvette vs. 911 debate has taken a complete new turn...

I do think that there should be a separate poll for cars costing twice as much as the Hyundai Tiburon. It will win in the fun, economy sports car class, but when put up against cars costing twice or three times as much, it won't stand a chance.

 

[YSSMAN]

I guess if Korea deserves a spot, does'nt Russia, China, and the Netherlands deserve one too?
If the Tiburon is an acceptable option, certainly these countries deserve a shot as well.
And I don't think Tiburon's have existed long enough to say for certain that "they'll drive forever", or anything of that sort. Especially most electrical problems don't factor in until a car is older than Hyundai itself.
So yes, I do think it is obsurd to list the Tiburon as a possibility, unless you're listing a car from every country with automakers present, at least producing autos that we've heard of.

I'll attempt to answer this question as the origionator of these threads:

In the origional game plan, it was to be contested between the five "superpowers" of the automotive world: The United States, The United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, and Italy. However it became evident through other threads that cars from France, Korea, Sweeden, and Australia were indeed just as popular.

So to go through your countries of issue:

- Russia: Quite frankly, I can't think of a single Russian car that has ever been sold outside of Russia. When I think of a Russian car, I generally think of the Volga... But thats it.

- China: You're joking, right? We are looking for the "best" car, not the best assembly of tinker-toys that somewhat resembles a car. They have what, the knock-off Jeeps and Hondas? The knock-off Mitsubishis and Buicks?

- Netherlands: So they have the Carver and Spyker models, so what? A competition between two models isn't worth a thread at all.

----

No pissing and moaning over what cars made it and which ones that didn't is completely pointless now. You've had well over three months as it seems to get your opinions herd, your votes counted, and to have your cars placed on the list. You don't like the Tiburon/Coupe? Well, you should have voted for the Spirra then... Complaining about it's build quality is silly as well. The Tiburon is argueably the car that made Hyundai what it is today, and it is rather sad that they have left it to wither while they work on the rest of the lineup.

Get over it. People love the Tibby, so what? The list of fans is quite large as well. It is often reguarded as a great value that offers a great ammount of performance at a great price. Top Gear loves it, so does Car and Driver, as does Motor Trend. It made the list because it truely is a good car. Certainly it may not be as good as say an Azera or Sonata, but the Tiburon/Coupe is certainly one of the best that is shipped out of Korea.

 

[Omnis]

1. I could'nt name 2 cars from Korea, without GT4.

Like Famine said, that's a personal problem.

3. What does Korea do to get nominated?

Korea makes cars like the Hyundai Santa Fe and the Hyundai Sonata. 2 of 6 SUVs I see on the road which belong to the Santa Fe's running model-years are, indeed, Santa Fe's. I see more new Sonatas driving around here than I see Accords. That's just a microcosm of the rest of america and the world.

 

[LeadSlead#2]

I'll attempt to answer this question as the origionator of these threads:

In the origional game plan, it was to be contested between the five "superpowers" of the automotive world: The United States, The United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, and Italy. However it became evident through other threads that cars from France, Korea, Sweeden, and Australia were indeed just as popular.

Except if those cars are, as you say, "indeed just as popular", how do they only accumulate 13% of the votes, combined?

So to go through your countries of issue:

- Russia: Quite frankly, I can't think of a single Russian car that has ever been sold outside of Russia. When I think of a Russian car, I generally think of the Volga... But thats it.

- China: You're joking, right? We are looking for the "best" car, not the best assembly of tinker-toys that somewhat resembles a car. They have what, the knock-off Jeeps and Hondas? The knock-off Mitsubishis and Buicks?

- Netherlands: So they have the Carver and Spyker models, so what? A competition between two models isn't worth a thread at all.

So a country can't have the best car in the world if they don't make enough cars to make a thread about on GTPlanet?
and what were the choices in the Korean thread? a couple of family cars, and maybe a small SUV or two, barring the Spirra, which lost to a family coupe that isnt on par with the Civic.

No pissing and moaning over what cars made it and which ones that didn't is completely pointless now. You've had well over three months as it seems to get your opinions herd, your votes counted, and to have your cars placed on the list. You don't like the Tiburon/Coupe? Well, you should have voted for the Spirra then... Complaining about it's build quality is silly as well. The Tiburon is argueably the car that made Hyundai what it is today, and it is rather sad that they have left it to wither while they work on the rest of the lineup.

Nobody here has complained about the Tiburon's build quality. I said it hasnt existed long enough to say "it'll run forever". And I still stand by that.

Get over it. People love the Tibby, so what? The list of fans is quite large as well. It is often reguarded as a great value that offers a great ammount of performance at a great price. Top Gear loves it, so does Car and Driver, as does Motor Trend. It made the list because it truely is a good car. Certainly it may not be as good as say an Azera or Sonata, but the Tiburon/Coupe is certainly one of the best that is shipped out of Korea.

Once again, nobody's complaining about the tibby, simply saying it doesnt deserve a spot in the voting. Nobody said it's a bad car here, or anything of the sort, I'm confused as to where you picked that up.

The main point is, clearly this is a performance-based vote for best car in the world, for the most part.
And before anybody says it isnt, answer me why the Miata beat out the best-selling cars in the world. Which include many, many, "car of the year" awards between them.

 

[YSSMAN]

Except if those cars are, as you say, "indeed just as popular", how do they only accumulate 13% of the votes, combined?

I can't explain why it works out that way, but I think you need to take this into perspective for a moment. These are the top nine cars as nominated and voted uppon by the users of GTPlanet.net, and thus what they vote for is up to them. As it appears, the 911 will end up with a win, and that is because they belive it to be.

Why the Monaro isn't up there is something you would have to ask every person who voted, same with the 'Egg, same with the Tibby. I had pretty much assumed since day one that it was going to be a shootout between an American and German model, and thus it appears to be.

---

On the Miata issue:

Well when you look at the impact the Mitata had on the automotive industry as a whole post-1989, you have to place it as one of the best cars made or sold anywhere to this day. Simply put, the car is "perfect" by not being too much of one thing other than fun.

After the Miata hit the streets and became a success with not only the press, but the public as well, the race was on from automakers around the world to cut-in on their slice of the pie. Without the Miata we wouldn't have had cars like the S2000, Boxster, Z3 and Z4, Solstice, Sky, etc.

---
On the sporty issue:

While I do understand your concern over performance models topping other "standard" ones, there were always plenty of models nominated and voted for that nearly made the cut. Care to remember the DS versus Veyron debates? There was a heated contest between the 911 and Beetle as well...

When you look at most lists of "Best Cars" in any magazine or newspaper worldwide, you are often going to to see them spotted with sportscars. Why? Well they are generally at the forefront of technology for their assorted automakers, testbeds for technology, truely fitting the "Halo" model by which they are often described.

If we were to all use common sense, it would have been a vanialla versus french vanilla versus frozen vanilla yogurt here. What is exciting about a list that would have consisted of the Honda Civic, Volkswagen Golf, and Vauxhall Astra? That they come in electric blue or a bright yellow?

---

Obviously I don't have a particularly clear answer for all of this. But, I can't explain the actions of everyone else as well. While I would have loved to have models like the Citroen DS, Volkswagen Beetle, Jaguar XJ, Hyundai Azera, Honda Accord, etc on the list... It didn't work out that way. But I'm plenty happy with the 911, Miata, Veyron, etc. It is the opinions of others that mattered here, not mine...

 

[Wolfe]

Sorry, Leadslead#2, but the time to debate which cars belong in the poll ended a long time ago.

Even if you could convince a moderator to edit the poll and add whatever cars you think should have been added (and you can't), and even if doing so wouldn't reset the entire poll to 0 (and I believe it would), what would be the point? Do you really think that you have the perfect car in mind, the one car that everyone who participated in these threads forgot, that's so good that the 911, Corvette, and every other car in this poll wouldn't have even stood a chance?

You can't just pop in towards the end of the final voting and expect to see the cars you want to see on the poll. You also can't expect to cry foul play over the exclusion of China, Russia, and the Netherlands and not have several other GTP members roll their eyes at you. They simply aren't big players in the automotive industry, and there's nothing you or we can do about that.

My suggestion to you is to give up this impossibly one-sided argument, because continuing on will do you no good. Considering how stubborn I can be, that advice should mean something to you.

 

[1X83Z]

And before anybody says it isnt, answer me why the Miata beat out the best-selling cars in the world. Which include many, many, "car of the year" awards between them.

THIS IS A FORUM OF CAR ENTHUSIASTS.

Why are you still arguing?

 

[SagarisGTB]

In the origional game plan, it was to be contested between the five "superpowers" of the automotive world: The United States, The United Kingdom, Germany, Japan, and Italy. However it became evident through other threads that cars from France, Korea, Sweden, and Australia were indeed just as popular.

The United Kingdom hasnt been an "Automotive Superpower" for a long time. France has always been a superpower in the auto industry with two large companies in Renault and Peugeot-Citroën. In Europe (or Italia in this example), 80% of the cars parked on the street are either Italian, German or French, with most of the rest being Japanese. In Germany theres more german cars, less Italian cars, but along similar lines. I guess im going off-topic, but France is definately more of an automotive superpower than the UK. Hell, Korea is bigger than the UK auto industry these days.

Just had to clear that up.

 

[Wolfe]

THIS IS A FORUM OF CAR ENTHUSIASTS.

You really seem to resent that fact.

 

[Scaff]

The United Kingdom hasnt been an "Automotive Superpower" for a long time. France has always been a superpower in the auto industry with two large companies in Renault and Peugeot-Citroën. In Europe (or Italia in this example), 80% of the cars parked on the street are either Italian, German or French, with most of the rest being Japanese. In Germany theres more german cars, less Italian cars, but along similar lines. I guess im going off-topic, but France is definately more of an automotive superpower than the UK. Hell, Korea is bigger than the UK auto industry these days.

Just had to clear that up.

Yes but this series of discussions has not been limited to the present day, its been open to any car ever made, and as such the UK is certainly a strong force. That's why you will notice that a large number of the cars in the final poll are not currently in production.

It could be argued that Italy has (in terms of volume) never been an Automotive Superpower, but it has in terms of defining niche models such as Ferrari and Lamborghini.

The mention of which brings me on to the next point, when the original threads started it was agreed (after much discussion) that cars would be classed in country of origin by the natural home for the manufacturer, regardless of who now owns them.

So for example Lamborghini were included in the Italian nominations, despite being owned by a German company; the most contentious of these was Bugatti being classed as a French company.

Still in defence of the UK we may not be an Automotive Superpower in terms of volume (despite having a moderately healthy automotive manufacturing sector - its just for non-British manufacturers), it could be argued that we are still a major player in the niche sports car market, with companies such as Lotus, Aston Martin, TVR, etc setting benchmarks in there own ways.

Yes the three companies I have mentioned are no longer British owned, but certainly qualify under the guidelines we agreed to in this discussion and even outside that still have a certain quality that is British.

Regards

Scaff

 

[1X83Z]

You really seem to resent that fact.

Sometimes it gets to me. But here it answers his question. Yes, the Accord is a better all-rounder than the Miata and probably a better car by most measures (especially popular ones). But do you really expect a forum of car enthusiasts to call it the best Japanese car ever? Exactly.

 

[YSSMAN]

^ Yes, I agree.

If we all take a walk back to the first Bitish Car thread, I came up with the idea after watching the Top Gear "Best British Car" clip on a rainy day. So I thought, "How cool would it be to find the best cars from a few different companies and have one big shootout?"

Thus, the "Best Car" threads were born!

I'm very happy that everything has turned out as well as it did, and outside of a few hiccups here and there, a good ammount of the competition has been tight, and debates (although occasionally personal) very informational and indeed interesting.

I want to thank everyone who has participated, as this little test has worked out pretty well overall. I'm going to have a hard time comming up with something to replace it, as it was quite fun overall. The good thing about these is that they appealed, for the most part, to everyone... As they all had their own favorites, preferences, etc. I could do something with trucks, but that probably wouldn't fly. Motorcycles? Maybe...

We still have a bit for a few more votes to get tacked on, but I think it is pretty clear that the Porsche 911 will be the winner.

*I am planning a post-"World's Best Car" thread to get a few things figured out. Leaving some space for some thoughts about the events, the end results, etc. I figure that would be good for some discussion to occour, and from there I may be able to find the next "Hot Topic" to occupy us for the next few months once again.

---

On the "Superpower" issue:

Origionally I had approached this entire setup from a very American standpoint. Thinking mostly of the cars that have been, or are currently sold in North America, I really neglected the whole notion that many of the threads would become a competition between American, European, and even Australian definitions of a great car. As things progressed, more countries were added, especially ones outside of the "major powers" that I had origionally had envisioned.

---

Its been a good run kids, I can't wait for the after-thread discussions!

 

[Dave A]

The United Kingdom hasnt been an "Automotive Superpower" for a long time. France has always been a superpower in the auto industry with two large companies in Renault and Peugeot-Citroën. In Europe (or Italia in this example), 80% of the cars parked on the street are either Italian, German or French, with most of the rest being Japanese. In Germany theres more german cars, less Italian cars, but along similar lines. I guess im going off-topic, but France is definately more of an automotive superpower than the UK. Hell, Korea is bigger than the UK auto industry these days.

Just had to clear that up.

We have some pretty big names here in the UK, Vauxhall, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Lotus, Range Rover, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Ford and more. France is a bigger automotive superpower than the UK today, I can agree with that. but Korea, not a chance, neither are Austrailia and I do mean today. The UK makes some pretty good cars, some class leading cars, they arn't all the highest volume cars around but still.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Yes but this series of discussions has not been limited to the present day, its been open to any car ever made, and as such the UK is certainly a strong force. That's why you will notice that a large number of the cars in the final poll are not currently in production.

I realize this, but looking at the current poll results placing the corvette second, a bigger weight must be put on modern cars seeing how the corvette was not a good car until recently.

It could be argued that Italy has (in terms of volume) never been an Automotive Superpower, but it has in terms of defining niche models such as Ferrari and Lamborghini.

Im willing to bet that FIAT has sold more cars in its history than all british marques combined. Ferrari IS the most prestigious automotive name on the planet, and Italia is the craddle of motorsport. Italia is very much an Automotive Superpower.

The mention of which brings me on to the next point, when the original threads started it was agreed (after much discussion) that cars would be classed in country of origin by the natural home for the manufacturer, regardless of who now owns them.

So for example Lamborghini were included in the Italian nominations, despite being owned by a German company; the most contentious of these was Bugatti being classed as a French company.

Still in defence of the UK we may not be an Automotive Superpower in terms of volume (despite having a moderately healthy automotive manufacturing sector - its just for non-British manufacturers), it could be argued that we are still a major player in the niche sports car market, with companies such as Lotus, Aston Martin, TVR, etc setting benchmarks in there own ways.

Yes the three companies I have mentioned are no longer British owned, but certainly qualify under the guidelines we agreed to in this discussion and even outside that still have a certain quality that is British.

I understand what youre saying. I also understand that after america, most users here are british (This is a english speaking forum afterall). And im a big fan of TVR. British low production cars are still very good and many british teams are successfull in motorsport. But, the UK has never had a successfull mass production auto industry when you cross the atlantic, north sea or english channel. While the general public knows what Rover is, they have not sold well outside the UK at all, and now the company is dead. Vauxhall has been your closest thing to a mass production british marque, but thats just rebadged Opels and some Holdens. Part of GM since 1925, its rarely been actual british cars. MG, see Rover. The entire British auto market is niche sports cars and German built luxury barges. To me, that doesnt qualify it as a Automotive superpower. When a 1st world average person decides to buy a car for his job, family or other needs, a British car is rarely even considered. I respect British auto engineering but to call the UK an Automotive superpower over France is absurd to me.

 

[Famine]

The entire British auto market is niche sports cars and German built luxury barges.

Mmmm, not quite.

The most popular cars in the private British car market (excluding commercials, like the Ford Transit) are small hatchbacks (Ford Fiesta [formerly made in the UK, now made in Germany], Nissan Micra [made in the UK], Vauxhall Corsa [designed and built in the UK]), small family hatchbacks (Ford Focus [designed in the UK], Honda Civic [made in the UK]) and family cars (Ford Mondeo [designed in the UK], Honda Accord [made in the UK], Nissan Primera [made in the UK]).

German built luxury barges... If you include the corporate/lease sector, an awful lot of 3-series turn up.

But we still have, though American-owned, Jaguar and Aston Martin (the Jaguar XJ is still the benchmark in many aspects of the executive car, and the DB9 and V8 Vantage have both attracted an immense amount of positive press). Yes, there's an awful lot of niche cars - Ariel Atom and all the Seven clones being a case in point - and we do make a lot of foreign companies' cars too (Honda and Nissan being biggies). And there's always TVR.


Turn the focus slightly away from road cars and you'll see why Britain is, and always has been, an automotive superpower. Most of the F1 grid comes from the UK - even those where the car isn't built here, and the chassis and/or engine doesn't come straight out of the UK have a number of UK-sourced major components. Most of the WRC pack too. I believe ChampCar or IRL get a number of chassis from the UK (I forget which). We've racked up 18 of 74 Le Mans victories and 11 F1 World Champions (okay, 8 champions, 11 championships)... We also gave the world the Ford GT40, the Ford RS200, the Metro 6R4, the Jaguar XJ220, the McLaren F1 and, in due course, the Barabus...

 

[SagarisGTB]

Mmmm, not quite.

The most popular cars in the private British car market (excluding commercials, like the Ford Transit) are small hatchbacks (Ford Fiesta [formerly made in the UK, now made in Germany], Nissan Micra [made in the UK], Vauxhall Corsa [designed and built in the UK]), small family hatchbacks (Ford Focus [designed in the UK], Honda Civic [made in the UK]) and family cars (Ford Mondeo [designed in the UK], Honda Accord [made in the UK], Nissan Primera [made in the UK]).

I aknowledge your Ford examples, as alot international Ford products are british designs (though funded by american dollars) and sell reasonably well outside the UK (Except for the Mondeo, which is rarer than UFOs in large European countries excluding the UK).

But those hondas and Nissans are as british as the Hondas, GMs and Fords built in Canada are Canadian.

German built luxury barges... If you include the corporate/lease sector, an awful lot of 3-series turn up.

But we still have, though American-owned, Jaguar and Aston Martin (the Jaguar XJ is still the benchmark in many aspects of the executive car, and the DB9 and V8 Vantage have both attracted an immense amount of positive press). Yes, there's an awful lot of niche cars - Ariel Atom and all the Seven clones being a case in point - and we do make a lot of foreign companies' cars too (Honda and Nissan being biggies). And there's always TVR.


Turn the focus slightly away from road cars and you'll see why Britain is, and always has been, an automotive superpower. Most of the F1 grid comes from the UK - even those where the car isn't built here, and the chassis and/or engine doesn't come straight out of the UK have a number of UK-sourced major components. Most of the WRC pack too. I believe ChampCar or IRL get a number of chassis from the UK (I forget which). We've racked up 18 of 74 Le Mans victories and 11 F1 World Champions (okay, 8 champions, 11 championships)... We also gave the world the Ford GT40, the Ford RS200, the Metro 6R4, the Jaguar XJ220, the McLaren F1 and, in due course, the Barabus...

Thats all very nice. But that doesnt put a car in the driveway for most people in the first world. The UK has never had a FIAT, Renault, Peugeot/Citroën, or even a hyundai or Kia. I guess there isnt a definition for automotive superpower, but I feel one has to mass produce to a large degree to qualify, no matter what other qualities you possess. In adition, there is no money in the UK auto industry these days going to Britons. Now even TVR is owned by non-British hands.

This is getting off topic. I dont mean to put down the britsh auto industry in any way. I will agree that the British are still a force in racing and respected for their designs and engineering, but by my definition of Auto Superpower, it just isnt one. I think we can all agree, atleast toaday, that France is a bigger force in the Auto world. Historically, its very debatable, but im not going to do that.

Edit: btw, the XJ hasnt been at the level of the A8, S-class and 7-series for a while. And the new LS pushes the XJ even farther down the pecking order.

 

[Tornado]

Thats all very nice. But that doesnt put a car in the driveway for most people in the first world. The UK has never had a FIAT, Renault, Peugeot/Citroën, or even a hyundai or Kia. I guess there isnt a definition for automotive superpower, but I feel one has to mass produce to a large degree to qualify, no matter what other qualities you possess. In adition, there is no money in the UK auto industry these days going to Britons.

So, what do you call MG-Rover before it went belly up? Granted, that was a poorly run British company, but Ford has been a poorly run American company since Henry Ford II went all stupid and fired Iaccoca nearly 30 years ago, and that hasn't stopped it from being a powerful company.

Now even TVR is owned by non-British hands.

That hardly makes it a non-British brand, as it is exactly the same it was when Wheeler ran it, and Smolenski has gone out of his way to keep the brand British rather than farm out the production to where it would be cheaper.

Edit: btw, the XJ hasnt been at the level of the A8, S-class and 7-series for a while. And the new LS pushes the XJ even farther down the pecking order.

The XJ is far and away the best drivers car in the class, because it doesn't try to do multiple things. Its unashamedly sporty, and only the BMW comes near it in driving fun. In addition, it's fast and handles well. And the Lexus has always been the best car in the class, but unless they foud the "fun" switch it won't matter.

 

[SagarisGTB]

So, what do you call MG-Rover before it went belly up? Granted, that was a poorly run British company, but Ford has been a poorly run American company since Henry Ford II went all stupid and fired Iaccoca nearly 30 years ago, and that hasn't stopped it from being a powerful company.

MG-Rover wasnt a large mass producing car company, with extremely skimpy sales outside the Uk.

That hardly makes it a non-British brand, as it is exactly the same it was when Wheeler ran it, and Smolenski has gone out of his way to keep the brand British rather than farm out the production to where it would be cheaper.

Of course TVR is still 1000% british. I was using that sentence to support my premise that all of the money in the UK auto industry is foreign owned.

The XJ is far and away the best drivers car in the class, because it doesn't try to do multiple things. Its unashamedly sporty, and only the BMW comes near it in driving fun. In addition, it's fast and handles well. And the Lexus has always been the best car in the class, but unless they foud the "fun" switch it won't matter.

Apparently the new LS is great to drive. And I was reffering to the poor results the XJ has recieved in comparos from non-UK publications.