Theory about Course Generator Restrictions

[JediRage]

Right now the most obvious problems with the Course Generator are:

1. You don't have freedom to model a track however you wish
2. You can't share user created tracks online

Why is this?

If a user had complete control over the course maker, many competent players could model REAL LIFE tracks. Or tracks from previous GT games. Theoretically all the popular tracks that players wish there were in this game from the beginning.

Now, if a user could SHARE these tracks online, a large amount of people could have a collection of these popular tracks and use it for online races.

Given these two scenarios, it would considerably reduce the number of people who would purchase new tracks from PD/Sony in the form of DLC.

I feel this is the case for I cant think of any other reason. Discuss.

 

[kuyaglen]

I thought we knew this already.

 

[DEADLIST]

im pretty sure you didnt look into this course maker very well.
im a 3D Maya software modeler and im mighty impressed with the coding PD has used for course creation in GT5.
Let me just say you can create many layouts, but i have a feeling that most gamers dont get that same feeling of an ComputerMadeNarrowCircuit, than that of a track carefully created by a human with run off areas, wide grass fields, proper pitlane, ect.

 

[entropy731]

You guys are all reading way too much into this.

PD...scratch that...SONY dropped the ball. Period.

 

[niky]

They've limited the track generator simply because:

1. It prevents players from making impossible/impassable sections of track.

2. It allows the game to properly generate trackside elements at each turn. This includes curbs, railing in the proper sections, road signs and barriers.

3. It allows them to set a useable pit-lane for every track layout.

4. It prevents you from generating a track that stretches the limits of the graphics engine.

This last item is probably the most important, as GT5 has to look good, no matter how or where you play it.

-

The fact that you can't race the tracks online is probably down to the random terrain seed used to generate some of the tracks. Though that shouldn't be such a big problem, really. Given the same seed and the same commands, all PS3s should generate the exact same track. Maybe a few patches in and they'll fix this.

-

I was disappointed when I first saw the limited options in the track editor. But when I started racing on custom tracks, I started to realize the limitations they were working under.

-

I suppose until someone releases a track editor that you can run on a PC or a Mac, that's all we are going to have. It's just not within the capabilities of the game to create a track from complete scratch.

 

[Devedander]

They've limited the track generator simply because:

1. It prevents players from making impossible/impassable sections of track.

2. It allows the game to properly generate trackside elements at each turn. This includes curbs, railing in the proper sections, road signs and barriers.

3. It allows them to set a useable pit-lane for every track layout.

4. It prevents you from generating a track that stretches the limits of the graphics engine.

This last item is probably the most important, as GT5 has to look good, no matter how or where you play it.

-

The fact that you can't race the tracks online is probably down to the random terrain seed used to generate some of the tracks. Though that shouldn't be such a big problem, really. Given the same seed and the same commands, all PS3s should generate the exact same track. Maybe a few patches in and they'll fix this.

-

I was disappointed when I first saw the limited options in the track editor. But when I started racing on custom tracks, I started to realize the limitations they were working under.

-

I suppose until someone releases a track editor that you can run on a PC or a Mac, that's all we are going to have. It's just not within the capabilities of the game to create a track from complete scratch.

I'm gonna have to question those as more theories or opinions than any kind of answer or fact.

1: A minimal track width along with a limit on section curve would resolve this issue. At worst the game could attempt to generate an AI drivers line and if it fails the course is not allowed to save.

2: This can still be handled by the game engine... you will note the trackside elements are quite sparse and repetitive. If Modnation racers can pull off what it pulls off, GT5 should be able to pull off some moderate stuff. Look at Test Drive Vrally... user createable courses.

3: The start/finish line is always on a rather long straight stretch as it is. It would be quite easy to force a similar restriction on user created tracks.

4: It's quite possible to limit objects on screen and have the game tell you how much resources are left, locking you out of building more when the map is too complex or any area is too complex. With the simplistic limits of the custom maps as it is I find it unlikely you would ever end up with too much to render. Even if you did, we see GT5 drop to 25FPS in some areas of the game... it wouldn't be unthinkable to have the same hapen on user made tracks.

The reasoning behind not sharing due to a random seed really makes no sense for the very reason you give. The reason it's not sharable is almost certainly because they simply have not coded the ability to share into the game.

As for whether it's within the capabilities of the game to create a map from scratch, by definition it's not because... well it's not programmed in.

Whether it's feasible or not is a seperate issue and arguable to be sure...

 

[JediRage]

As for the runoff areas, barriers and pit lanes, I assume it can be automated according to the start line, curvature of the track, altitude changes etc. I was talking about people having complete control over the track length, width, curvature and these could have been done in segments. I wasn't talking about creating the background, spectators, grass, sand etc.

Imagine a Suzuka layout in Tuscan background, a Monza layout in Mt. Aso, A Tsukuba layout in Alaska (drifter dream) etc.

Edit: I used to play Battle for Middle Earth 2 online and it had a complex map creator (no need for such complexity in GT5's) but it was possible to upload these maps to those players who didn't have it before the match began. Same principle could apply here I guess.

 

[Destinkeys]

How big is the file when you save a user created course? If you go online, every single payer would have to download that file before he could play. Would the bandwidth of doing that through the PD servers be more than they can handle? They seem pretty taxed just doing what they already are...

 

[JediRage]

I'm not a network wizard, but do the online servers really belong to PD? If they do, I think we're better off P2P.

 

[Villain]

I'm not a network wizard, but do the online servers really belong to PD? If they do, I think we're better off P2P.

Try to stay on topic, bud. You have a great point, but it might fit a little better in another thread. 👍

I'm no moderator, just looking out.

 

[Devedander]

How big is the file when you save a user created course? If you go online, every single payer would have to download that file before he could play. Would the bandwidth of doing that through the PD servers be more than they can handle? They seem pretty taxed just doing what they already are...

Relatively tiny I am sure. A few hundred KB at most I would think as they just have to contain layout information and the assets that make up the map are already on everyones HDD/disc anyway.

Less even if the information to generate the map was all that was passed back and forth and each users PS3 generated the map itself for the race.

 

[niky]

Deveander, I actually agree with your assessment of what should be possible, but i'm positing possible reasons for this. While it should be possible to do it otherwise, this system is what allows GT5 to generate random tracks the AI can drive on the fly for rally challenges. I quite like your idea for "no AI line, no go", which would be an excellent means of making fully custom tracks possible.

Fully custom maps, even with pre-made resources would probably be pretty large... Depending on the complexity of the terrain, probably a couple of megs. Custom maps with the current semi-random seeds should be much much smaller.. Which makes the inavailability of these for online play very puzzling.

 

[yossigab]

My opinions are:
1) If the file-size for each track is too big to upload to all the drivers in an on-line race then PD could solved it in a restriction that the track need to be uploaded to PD servers first and then each driver need to download it before the race begin. And if you don't have it - you can't drive it (similar to COD MW2 new maps).

2) The above will require a lot of HDD data in PD since every one will want his tracks to be uploaded to PD for all of the world to see (like LBP1). In this case, PD could restrict that if a track is not being downloaded (or maybe race) for 60 days - it is removed from their server. If a user want to share it again - upload again.

3) Regarding a full track editor - I think that it can be done, but wasn't done by PD due to the "tight" GT5 schedule (it took them "only" 6 years to develop). Still, using the current track generator (Course Maker), they can add a feature in which after the track is generated, there are some corners marked on the map, and using the stick you can change their location to have it your way. And if you try to stretch the curve too much - it stop moving.

4) My speculation is that if PD will let people to play the courses on-line (in one way or another) the "Modding" community will arise and will create some tools (on PC or PS3) that will let you alter the tracks saved on your PS3 - in this way you might create your own courses (probably with some limitations). I don't see this even starting until we will be able to race them on-line since the motivation is very low currently.

 

[GTOne2Three]

Why not just have several forms of terrain to build a track around? No terrain changes. However, the track will be built Rollercoaster tycoon style.

Section 1, set that to starting section, it comes with a pitstop and starting grid.

Section2 would be a small straight.

Section3 would be the first turn, at the same time, you can set the banking of section 3, and the size of the turn.

Section 4 will be another turn.

Section 5 will be anoter straight.

Section 6, add a chicane, you can adjust how large you want it.

Section 7, make that an uphill road held up by pillars(not terrain, unless the track goes over a hill).

Section 8, 2 more turns.

Section 9, one more straight that connects to the starting point.

Finish, test, save.

You can also set the width of a section, and all the adjustments will have realistic limits.

Problems solved.

 

[JediRage]

4) My speculation is that if PD will let people to play the courses on-line (in one way or another) the "Modding" community will arise and will create some tools (on PC or PS3) that will let you alter the tracks saved on your PS3 - in this way you might create your own courses (probably with some limitations). I don't see this even starting until we will be able to race them on-line since the motivation is very low currently.

That is what I'm concerned about. It feels like PD removed this feature to eradicate any competition with DLC tracks. If you can't make and share your own track, the only new tracks you will ever get will be by buying new ones from ... PD.

Given the recent revelation that there were some tracks in GT5P that were 'locked', this could be disturbing.

 

[Destinkeys]

My opinions are:
1) If the file-size for each track is too big to upload to all the drivers in an on-line race then PD could solved it in a restriction that the track need to be uploaded to PD servers first and then each driver need to download it before the race begin. And if you don't have it - you can't drive it (similar to COD MW2 new maps).

2) The above will require a lot of HDD data in PD since every one will want his tracks to be uploaded to PD for all of the world to see (like LBP1). In this case, PD could restrict that if a track is not being downloaded (or maybe race) for 60 days - it is removed from their server. If a user want to share it again - upload again.

3) Regarding a full track editor - I think that it can be done, but wasn't done by PD due to the "tight" GT5 schedule (it took them "only" 6 years to develop). Still, using the current track generator (Course Maker), they can add a feature in which after the track is generated, there are some corners marked on the map, and using the stick you can change their location to have it your way. And if you try to stretch the curve too much - it stop moving.

4) My speculation is that if PD will let people to play the courses on-line (in one way or another) the "Modding" community will arise and will create some tools (on PC or PS3) that will let you alter the tracks saved on your PS3 - in this way you might create your own courses (probably with some limitations). I don't see this even starting until we will be able to race them on-line since the motivation is very low currently.

I think that if PD had the server space for 20M (is that how many copies sold, so far?) peoples' user tracks, they also had the room for a 'cloud' based game save, which would have stopped the duping dead in its' track. Doesn't seem as this was an option for them, so I think PD hosting millions of tracks seems unlikely...

 

[Big Ron]

The generator makes tracks by its own, because they need to work.

It creates the turns, pitlane, starting field and environment in one click.

Better than when a few kids push together some garbage.

All we need is more layout for environment and topography manager.

 

[netnai]

And just an idea running in my head... to avoid these restrictions, what about a DLC (free or not) or a GT Road Creator Software (free or not) to create your own circuits with the desired detail level?

I am thinking in a GT5 game and, in the same shelf of the game store, a GT Course creator. This creator can evaluate the right quantity of elements to preserve the detail/running ratio, add new elements to the circuit (tire barriers, pits, crowd, trees...).

I would pay for it and i would love to create real circuits and known roads that i like in real life.

Gran Turismo is a too big idea to be all in a same game. It can be a brand of products, a classic GT, a japanese GT, european GT, track creator, rally GT... etc

 

[Bluez_Freak]

The course generator was one of the most hyped thing before release, and it finally proved to be the biggest let-down of all features. At least IMHO.

 

[Big Ron]

The course generator was one of the most hyped thing before release, and it finally proved to be the biggest let-down of all features. At least IMHO.

Sorry, but that is BS. It wasn´t hyped as muc as other things and no other hyped the track creator but the community without any knowledge about it and what features it has.

And now see, why they are all crying....

 

[netnai]

Sorry, but that is BS. It wasn´t hyped as muc as other things and no other hyped the track creator but the community without any knowledge about it and what features it has.

And now see, why they are all crying....

I agree. With the first news about that, i was very interested, to create some tracks and roads that i love. And i remember that, aside the hype common to all the GT5 details, info about the track generator was very short.

 

[Metal73]

I just need 1 mile(striaght) of tarmac and a traffic light without any pits or anything else...There are so many tracks to run with many variations of turns and elevation swifts..I am cool with it..

 

[entropy731]

I just need 1 mile(striaght) of tarmac and a traffic light without any pits or anything else...There are so many tracks to run with many variations of turns and elevation swifts..I am cool with it..

This is what I'm getting at. I understand all of you have valid points but we ordered porno and got PG flirting...

Surely a 1 mile strip would not destroy this apparently very weak engine.

 

[Exorcet]

The editor is limited. I've accepted that. I really don't care if it's PD's choice or if it's because the PS3 can't handle more. But, the thing that kills the track editor for me is that every track is a rally.

I absolutely hate tracks that drop 500 feet over a quarter of a mile, and it seems as though the track editor is programmed to give you such tracks no matter what. It's frustrating. Every time I used the editor, I made a track that looked like it had a good shape. I'd certainly be able to do more with a better editor, but GT5's is good enough to make something that looks worth racing. Until you drive it. Because when you drive it, you come around a blind corner and find a cliff waiting for you. We were able to change road width and turn complexity. Why not elevation? I'll never use my tracks until this issue is resolved.




Now on the subject of making the editor better, a crappy PS2 game called HyperSonic Extreme nuked GT5. It wasn't a sim, the cars went 5,000 mph (literally) but the track editor was basically unlimited. It was so good that I never played the main game, I just built tracks and raced them.

The editor worked by giving you small chunks of track to sculpt piece by piece. Basically, you set the start position, the press X to set the next 50 feet of track. You could then change its elevation angle, camber, turn radius, width, roughness, barriers, etc. This game was a budget title that no one ever heard of which is unfortunate because it had the best track editor I've ever seen.





A race on a custom track (skip to 4:00)

 

[Devedander]

Deveander, I actually agree with your assessment of what should be possible, but i'm positing possible reasons for this. While it should be possible to do it otherwise, this system is what allows GT5 to generate random tracks the AI can drive on the fly for rally challenges. I quite like your idea for "no AI line, no go", which would be an excellent means of making fully custom tracks possible.

Fully custom maps, even with pre-made resources would probably be pretty large... Depending on the complexity of the terrain, probably a couple of megs. Custom maps with the current semi-random seeds should be much much smaller.. Which makes the inavailability of these for online play very puzzling.

Just a heads up that when you say something lke:

They've limited the track generator simply because:

I doesn't sound like offering possibilities, it sounds like telling how it is.

Anyway as for size of user created maps I don't see why they would have to be very big... first of we already have all the terrains on every persons PS3 so it's not like those have to be sent over, we are using existing assets like the same trees, road texture, guardrails etc that are already in the game so those don't have to be sent over... the user created track literally has to be nothing more than a file that says "use terriin 4, here are the pieces of track to layout in what order and place tree1 here, another tree1 here, a third over there and a tree2 over here etc etc".

I would think it could be quite small, especially if you were willing to allow the PS3 on the receiving end 20 seconds to process and create the map locally off the instructions - which considering how long it takes to get into a race anyway hardly seems bad.

The editor worked by giving you small chunks of track to sculpt piece by piece. Basically, you set the start position, the press X to set the next 50 feet of track. You could then change its elevation angle, camber, turn radius, width, roughness, barriers, etc. This game was a budget title that no one ever heard of which is unfortunate because it had the best track editor I've ever seen.

Wow that was cool! It looked like a cross between trackmania and fzero... you're right I never heard about that and that would have been something I had a ton of fun with. Also pretty impressive how well the PS2 heald there... just a reminder of the insane fillrate that system had...

 

[entropy731]

Dude come one if we had a track editor like that F-Zero game, I would design a bunch of loops, and jumps, like moto-cross...

And maybe actually have fun with GT5. Somebody really needs to hack this game and make it a "Source" engine. It is one of the best physics engines ever developed.

I think that is the problem with PD, they are so smart, these guys are busting nuts over their calculators that divide by zero, they are incapable of having fun anymore.

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

The editor is limited. I've accepted that. I really don't care if it's PD's choice or if it's because the PS3 can't handle more. But, the thing that kills the track editor for me is that every track is a rally.

I absolutely hate tracks that drop 500 feet over a quarter of a mile, and it seems as though the track editor is programmed to give you such tracks no matter what. It's frustrating. Every time I used the editor, I made a track that looked like it had a good shape. I'd certainly be able to do more with a better editor, but GT5's is good enough to make something that looks worth racing. Until you drive it. Because when you drive it, you come around a blind corner and find a cliff waiting for you. We were able to change road width and turn complexity. Why not elevation? I'll never use my tracks until this issue is resolved.

Chap...have you tried Eifel Kart?

Elevations in Eifel Circuit seem to vary from around 300ft - 500ft elevation, even more. Eifel Kart varies between around 50ft and 250ft elevation normally.

I've made some pretty good tracks using Eifel Kart. The only drawbacks are that Kart tracks are shorter...but can reach 4 miles long...and that the track width is fixed but it's still wide enough for moderately high powered cars.

I'm grabbing pictures of each layout at the moment so I can create a new thread in the Course Maker folder to show what I mean.

 

[niky]

doesn't sound like offering possibilities, it sounds like telling how it is.

My apologies for sounding all official, then! (no offense taken)

Anyway as for size of user created maps I don't see why they would have to be very big... first of we already have all the terrains on every persons PS3 so it's not like those have to be sent over, we are using existing assets like the same trees, road texture, guardrails etc that are already in the game so those don't have to be sent over... the user created track literally has to be nothing more than a file that says "use terriin 4, here are the pieces of track to layout in what order and place tree1 here, another tree1 here, a third over there and a tree2 over here etc etc".

I would think it could be quite small, especially if you were willing to allow the PS3 on the receiving end 20 seconds to process and create the map locally off the instructions - which considering how long it takes to get into a race anyway hardly seems bad.

Too true, as long as they limit the terrain complexity or make you use pre-set terrains as they do now... though I think most of us would like the ability to sculpt terrain, which would increase the file sizes greatly.

That track editor looks awesome. Too bad they never sold that title here... wonder if I can get one on E-Bay?

 

[sk0pe]

That is what I'm concerned about. It feels like PD removed this feature to eradicate any competition with DLC tracks. If you can't make and share your own track, the only new tracks you will ever get will be by buying new ones from ... PD.

Given the recent revelation that there were some tracks in GT5P that were 'locked', this could be disturbing.

Umm excuse me, when has PD ever made you pay for a new track? For a GT forum people seem to know very little about GT or it's past.
Kaz does not believe in making people "pay" for additional content, he loves cars not money.
Ever play prologue?, that was added to and updated all the time with no additional charge.

Ever thought you can't build a track from scratch because of memory and hardware issues? LOL @ this thread.

Edit : And elevation changes when you adjust the "section complexity"

 

[Technitium]

Umm excuse me, when has PD ever made you pay for a new track? For a GT forum people seem to know very little about GT or it's past.
Kaz does not believe in making people "pay" for additional content, he loves cars not money.
Ever play prologue?, that was added to and updated all the time with no additional charge.

Ever thought you can't build a track from scratch because of memory and hardware issues? LOL @ this thread.

Edit : And elevation changes when you adjust the "section complexity"

well even if KAZ does not believe in making people pay for additional content, you also have to remember that he still HAS to pay his developers in his studio to model tracks/cars and for the programmers to program the physics of each car individually. I read that it takes almost 3 months to model each premium cars and around 6 months for each track so lets do a little calculation shall we

3 months = 90 days
90 days / 7 days a week x 5 days = 65 working days
65 working days x 8 hours a day = 520 hours

So it takes 520 hours to create a car (roughly, more or less depending on the vehicle) if a modeler makes, lets say 30 an hour, and there are 4 modelers per car, you can say that it costs them 62 400 for those 3 months. (this is all hypothetical)

So in order to pay those modelers, as well as the programmers and detailer's ettc etc, they have to make money somehow, so charging for the DLC is a good way to make money in order to pay them. So even though Kaz does not like charging for DLC, he has too in order to keep the studio operational.

Technitium