Think Minature, US microcars wanted?

[Sniffs]

the oil crunch in the US has me seriously wondering if Kei sized vehicles may suddenly begin selling, here. as most americans seem to be afraid of anything smaller than a Corolla (due to morons on the road who are in too much of a hurry), this may not happen. however, there is the possibility of a micros wishlist.

can our Europen and Asian/Oceanic members contribute reccomendations for reliable minis and micros for those of us not at the 1.8 meter/100 kilo mark?

personally, I want to add the Nuvo 500 to the mini-gotta-have list. there's allready talk of it being sold through the returning Alpha dealers in the US. and the way gas is going...

 

[Philly]

We also might want to look to Europeans for some cars. They are paying 50-100% more than we are for gas nowadays. They build cars that suit that environment, and I'm sure they could help us with our desire for a smaller, more efficient car.

What do I think we'll see? VW is bringing over some smaller cars and I'm sure some companies will start making their compacts suitable for the US market. But those cars will still be a ways off, so in the very near future (this year or so) I'm thinking we'll see Toyota doing well and SUV/truck sales continue to dive. The Prius was the ninth best selling car in the states last May and I'm sure they will continue to sell well. And then there is the crossover revolution which can only mean the US companies are trying hard to keep their SUV market. Aside from that, I think we'll see all the US companies do what Ford is doing and finding more efficient engines through smaller displacement and forced induction. And then they will be bringing a new car a step lower (Polo, Fiesta, Corsa).

 

[YSSMAN]

Its the subcompacts, thats where the money is going. Ford is giving us theirs (the Mazda 2 and Fiesta), VW will kick over the Polo, and GM keeps thinking about making a proper Gamma car introduction in the US.

Cheap, but nice, cars are what most young folk are going to want. That, and make 'em fun to drive too. That will be helpful.

 

[Sniffs]

we wish. i wouldn't mind seeing if the Lupo would cut the mustard over here (i grew up in the back of a Rabbit). the BIG problem with small cars is: we got the crap once and a lot of the american public, for some reason, associates non luxury europeans with horrible quality.
i think, if micros are brought over here, that they will have to work with american designers to take some of the "odd" out of the controll designs. americans are fussy.

i'm contemplating a micro for town hauls around here.

 

[Joey D]

The only thing we really get now is the Cooper, Yaris, Fit and Aveo. That's not a huge selection and after driving the Yaris and Aveo I can say they are rather meh, but the Fit and Cooper are both great little cars to drive. I love mine, I get good fuel mileage and despite what people will tell you, you can fit people in the car and even if you are tall you won't have a problem in the front seat. I don't understand why companies don't see a market for these cars. The Polo, the Fiesta, etc. would all sell over here.

If you want proof that small cars would do well look at the By the Numbers that autoblog posts and see how many times MINI is on top.

http://www.autoblog.com/tag/by+the+numbers/

 

[Tornado]

The Polo, the Fiesta, etc. would all sell over here.

Except both companies sell two larger cars at entry level prices already. If VW wants any realistic idea of selling Polos here, the Rabbit (and New Beetle and Jetta) base price would have to go up 5 grand, which would lose VW a lot more customers than the Polo would ever bring.
Ford has a better chance, because they could easily pull off a double whammy by releasing the Fiesta and then bringing the Euro Focus and moving that upmarket to cover costs, but they also just blew a bunch of money on the U.S. Focus.
I agree that small cars can sell, but most companies would have to do rearranging to get them to.

 

[YSSMAN]

Odd note on the Jetta: VW says its going to lower the entry price on the next model to Rabbit territory, ie, about $15K to start. My guess is that for the Polo to be successful here, it would have to start somewhere around $12K, and that would only be possible if the cars were built here... Which VW already has plans to (probably) do.

I'm most-excited for the Mazda 2, and after the Mazda 3 party wears off, I may go down a level... That is, only if they can beat the Polo to market.

 

[buickgnx88]

I wonder if in the future, when they make smaller and smaller vehicles, if they're going to start using fractions

 

[nightkid86]

We do now have smarts being sold here, i've seen a few on the road. However I would never own one - smaller than a prius, less room, 2 seater, 40mph, and premium? I'm sure they are great in big cities though.

I would love to see some other super sub compacts. I'm currently looking at getting a yaris or a fit for a daily driver.

 

[vr6gti72]

I think the new Fiat 500 would do well here....just a sweet little car.

 

[YSSMAN]

Add it's (the 500) sibling to the list, and I'll be very happy indeed:

 

[Greycap]

We also might want to look to Europeans for some cars. They are paying 50-100% more than we are for gas nowadays.

Make that 300% and we're talking. $2.25 per litre, $11 per US gallon.

The modern small European cars are actually just about as comfortable, good to drive (may even be better due to sharper handling) and safe as the usual American road cruisers so it's not the cars themselves that make the problem. It's the American way of thinking that does, there IS a replacement for displacement but it hasn't quite sunk in yet.

 

[Philly]

Make that 300% and we're talking. $2.25 per litre, $11 per US gallon.

Is that all over? I though it was ranging mostly between $6 per gallon on the mainland and $8 per gallon in the UK.

The modern small European cars are actually just about as comfortable, good to drive (may even be better due to sharper handling) and safe as the usual American road cruisers so it's not the cars themselves that make the problem. It's the American way of thinking that does, there IS a replacement for displacement but it hasn't quite sunk in yet.

The biggest problem with that theory is the other cars on the road. A little Fit would probably get far more beat up in a fight with a Suburban than, say, a 3 series.

Even that aside, it is hard to get around the mentality here that you are safer if you can see over every other car and block the vision of others. Americans are also convinced that they have to have three tons of steel around them to protect them in a crash.

 

[YSSMAN]

It's the American way of thinking that does, there IS a replacement for displacement but it hasn't quite sunk in yet.

That has absolutely nothing to do with fuel-efficiency. Check the fuel numbers of a Corvette with a 6.2L V8 versus the Z4, S2000, 350Z and RX-8 and you'll see that it flat out beats the Nissan and Mazda, and only comes up short with the others by 2 MPG. Its generally the same with most American engines these days, they may be larger (not always the case now), but they're just as fuel-efficent.

But, here is the good news sense you worry:

- GM will be sticking a 1.4L Turbo I4 in a lot of their smaller cars starting in 2009
- GM will also be offering a 2.0L Turbo I4 in some of their larger cars starting in 2009/2010.
- Ford will be switching to a 2.0L Turbo I4 to replace some of their V6s
- Ford will also be switching to a Turbo 3.5L V6 to replace some of their V8s

But alas, I still like my naturally-aspirated engines. Small-displacement stuff has come along quite a bit over the years, however, you've gotta consider all of the data before assuming your preference is best.

 

[Greycap]

Is that all over? I though it was ranging mostly between $6 per gallon on the mainland and $8 per gallon in the UK.

I can't speak for other countries but I just passed a station this morning and the pylon said 1.44€ a litre which translates to roughly that $11 a gallon.

The biggest problem with that theory is the other cars on the road. A little Fit would probably get far more beat up in a fight with a Suburban than, say, a 3 series.

I wouldn't be so sure. I saw an episode of Fifth Gear in which they slammed together a Renault Modus (certainly a small car) and a Volvo 940 (certainly big and sturdy, I have a 240 myself) and while the Renault admittedly got some damage the passengers would likely have been OK with minor injuries. The Volvo, however, was a total write off and so would have been the driver. Modern small cars are unbelievably tough.

Even that aside, it is hard to get around the mentality here that you are safer if you can see over every other car and block the vision of others. Americans are also convinced that they have to have three tons of steel around them to protect them in a crash.

You hit the nail on the head right there.

That has absolutely nothing to do with fuel-efficiency. Check the fuel numbers of a Corvette with a 6.2L V8 versus the Z4, S2000, 350Z and RX-8 and you'll see that it flat out beats the Nissan and Mazda, and only comes up short with the others by 2 MPG. Its generally the same with most American engines these days, they may be larger (not always the case now), but they're just as fuel-efficent.

The Corvette is good, yes. But it's one of the best American cars out there. If we do a comparison about getting that bag of dog food from the nearby K-Mart with a 4x4 Dodge Ram (the American way) or with a Fiat Panda (the European way) I don't think there are many surprises about which one consumes more. It's not only about the displacement of the engines but also the cars. Nobody seriously needs that six metres long three ton pick-up in daily driving but still they're used for just that and that's what needs changing.

 

[niky]

The Corvette gets better fuel economy because it's geared for highway driving. Your typical small displacement sports car is short geared, which means bad news for highway economy. Economy isn't just EPA numbers, though... in typical gridlock, an efficient small engine will always drink less than an efficient bigger engine. I've seen over 50 mpg out of small engines that aren't rated at any more than 38 mpg on the EPA... simply because the EPA rewards gear ratio more than outright efficiency.

Speaking of said 50 mpg car... the Honda Fit was designed to be crashworthy with bigger cars in mind. It can take quite a beating, actually. With modern crash structure design, it isn't the amount of mass up front that determines survivability, it's how well the car shunts the impact force around the vehicle that determines survivability. If your car is 3 tonnes and only the 1 ton in front of the driver absorbs the crash force, then it isn't any safer (or probably less safe) than a 1 ton car that shunts the crash force from front bumper to rear bumper instantly.

That's not to say that large vehicles are unsafe, but then largeness is not a guarantee of safety... note the new Frontier's abysmal performance in the first EuroNCAP test it went through... and I'm not talking about how the airbags failed to open... it's the structural deformation that's most shocking. In other words... if you crashed said Frontier into a Smart Fortwo... the ForTwo driver might walk out bruised, while the Frontier driver would have to be stretchered out because his legs would be pinned to the dashboard.

But personally... I don't think America is ready for small cars. The Honda Fit shows that you can have a small car that's fun, safe and practical... but with four on-board, there's very little luggage space (so it's not a proper family car for anyone with more than one kid)... and most superminis are really tiny compared to it.

Lighter cars, though, that might be the ticket... but we'll have to wait and see if that's possible while meeting the demands for crash safety and refinement... an area that adds lots of mass to a car, in terms of structural stiffening and insulation.

 

[Diego440]

Keep in mind cars like the Ford Mondeo, Toyota Avensis and Renault Laguna are large, family cars in these parts, while in the US they're average-to-sub-sized sedans... or some other adjective.

The hatches seem to be the best-selling cars here and offer the greatest power/space/size combo. Cars like the Renault Clio, Ford Focus, Volvo C30, Corolla Hatchback, Citroën C3... true, there's differen sizes in those, but if you're looking for a decently-sized car without sacrificing too much in terms of power, that's the best choice.

Then again, I don't think the US needs smaller cars. One of the reasons cars in Europe are smaller is because space is limited and thus, roads are smaller and narrower. Look at the freakin parking spots! I have to close the mirrors in my car everytime I park... in the US you can park a damn Escalade almost anywhere and even open the doors comfortably.

In the US parking spaces in a layout other than parallel shall not be less than 9 feet in width and 19 feet in length. In Europe you can consider yourself lucky to find a spot that's more than 7-8 Ft. wide and 15 ft. long.

 

[Philly]

I wouldn't be so sure. I saw an episode of Fifth Gear in which they slammed together a Renault Modus (certainly a small car) and a Volvo 940 (certainly big and sturdy, I have a 240 myself) and while the Renault admittedly got some damage the passengers would likely have been OK with minor injuries. The Volvo, however, was a total write off and so would have been the driver. Modern small cars are unbelievably tough.

Ramming those two cars together probably won't bring you into the problem of bumper heights. You can have a car be perfectly safe when you ram it into a brick wall at 100 mph but it will probably be a significantly different game when the larger car has a chance of driving up on the hood of the smaller one. Here's the best comparison I could find:

That, and I guess I was trying to say that we Americans will also have a harder time believing our compact can possibly be as safe as an SUV twice the size.

 

[Sniffs]

Keep in mind cars like the Ford Mondeo, Toyota Avensis and Renault Laguna are large, family cars in these parts, while in the US they're average-to-sub-sized sedans... or some other adjective.

and europeans have to keep that in mind, too

The hatches seem to be the best-selling cars here and offer the greatest power/space/size combo. Cars like the Renault Clio, Ford Focus, Volvo C30, Corolla Hatchback, Citroën C3... true, there's differen sizes in those, but if you're looking for a decently-sized car without sacrificing too much in terms of power, that's the best choice.

not really. hatches have a rep over here that matches estates/wagons and minivans anymore. i loved the versatility in my Camry LE hatch, tho.

Then again, I don't think the US needs smaller cars. One of the reasons cars in Europe are smaller is because space is limited and thus, roads are smaller and narrower. Look at the freakin parking spots! I have to close the mirrors in my car everytime I park... in the US you can park a damn Escalade almost anywhere and even open the doors comfortably.

apparently, you haven't tried to park in a small town with major highway running through it lately. it's a royal sonofa trying to get in an out because of the traffic, squeezy parking spaces, bad arrangements, and the blinking Grand Caravans,F super dutys, 8 foot bed full size pickups with caps, Suburbans, and the occasional town car. you can't see around the buggers to back out of a diagonal parking space, they tap your bumpers in paralell parking, and have friggin tinted windows so bleedin dark you can't use them to see and make sure there isn't some moron blowing down the road at 100 mph in his buick because he's only got five gallons of gas in the tank, had to commute 20 miles one way to work, and left five minutes before the shift started [/Rant]
sorry. some places need to clean out a few blocks for parking

In the US parking spaces in a layout other than parallel shall not be less than 9 feet in width and 19 feet in length. In Europe you can consider yourself lucky to find a spot that's more than 7-8 Ft. wide and 15 ft. long.

remember, europe had roads and passages created for the width of a HORSE at the maximum. it's also a lot older over there in terms of permanent settlements of significant size. (the Native Americans, here, can take up issues with me later )

Greycap: huh. and your closer to the North Sea oil than most of Europe.

Even that aside, it is hard to get around the mentality here that you are safer if you can see over every other car and block the vision of others. Americans are also convinced that they have to have three tons of steel around them to protect them in a crash.

somebody finally noticed?! o.O *faints*

 

[Diego440]

Tehee... there are many roads around here where there's no dividing line because you're supposed to go in the middle, untila car comes the opposite way, then each is supposed to take its respective side... but you can expect to slow down and even come to a stop whenever there's a bus on said roads.

 

[buickgnx88]

And in the US, there are some roads with super wide shoulders which makes you wonder why they didn't just add an extra lane.

 

[YSSMAN]

The Corvette is good, yes. But it's one of the best American cars out there. If we do a comparison about getting that bag of dog food from the nearby K-Mart with a 4x4 Dodge Ram (the American way) or with a Fiat Panda (the European way) I don't think there are many surprises about which one consumes more. It's not only about the displacement of the engines but also the cars. Nobody seriously needs that six metres long three ton pick-up in daily driving but still they're used for just that and that's what needs changing.

That gets into the rationality of what someone needs versus what they want, and that is always a touchy subject in hyper-individualist America. I've consistently [facepalmed] my stepmother's choice of switching out from an Altima to an Envoy because "its what I want" despite not using anything that it was designed to do. But, given that its her money and she is able to do what she wants with it, I gave it all a resounding "meh."

Me personally, I'd rather have a small (yet capable) hatch or wagon... Thing is, not enough companies offer decent alternatives, and if they do, often charge way too much for them (compared to the base price on the sedan).

 

[buickgnx88]

That's the thing about a car, to some people it's a need whereas others it's a want. Some don't care what they drive just as long as it goes from A to B, while others want a car that is sporty or loud or large simply because it pleases them.

I'm happy with the Jeep I own now. It gets average mileage, but is quite capable in the winter weather, is fun to drive (with a stick), and can become topless in a matter of minutes. I've personalized it just to my liking and I can stretch out in it rather then feeling cramped such as in my dad's car. The thing I find funny is how small overall the YJ Wranglers are, yet on the inside they feel huge...perhaps it's because of the simplicity of the interior as well as the taller "roof".

 

[Philly]

Greycap: huh. and your closer to the North Sea oil than most of Europe.

Alaska is closer to their oil than the rest of the US. And yet they are paying the second highest price in the country. That's probably because they have to ship it down to Washington to get it refined then send it back up. The weird thing is that Washington has the 3rd/4th highest prices in the country. And the Bellingham area, right next to a major refinery, is highest in the state.

Oh. And I think you have your geography a little mixed up. The North Sea is between England and Norway (he's from Finland) and I believe the Brits do most of the drilling up there....

And in the US, there are some roads with super wide shoulders which makes you wonder why they didn't just add an extra lane.

I'm guessing that those roads are either in the middle of nowhere where they don't need extra lanes and have space to expand. In the city, you don't have the room to expand so any extra wide shoulder probably is there because traffic isn't that bad or because they wanted to use all the space but didn't have enough to build another lane.

 

[Sniffs]

actually, I was thinking of that bit of water pinched between the Scandinavian countries and northern Europe was considered a part of the North Sea (why don't they call it the Norse Sea and get it over with, or would that be insulting to Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, and Finland?)

we have one that has had that recently done to it (as well as taking sharp curves off). it was well widened because of trucker/lorry usage. the local Amish community takes advantage of this wide curb so they stay outa traffic

 

[Greycap]

That part of the sea already has a name of its own, it's the Baltic Sea. The northernmost part of it is the Gulf of Bothnia and the easternmost part is the Gulf of Finland.

Back to the car subject and especially the need vs. want part of it, I have to admit that I have a larger car than I need myself. However, at about 4.70m of length it's about the biggest possible one that can be sensibly used as a city car here - any longer and parking becomes a nightmare. It's a good combination of room (being a big estate), lightweightedness (1340 kg isn't bad for a car of that size) and a reasonably small engine (2.3 litres, OK not that small after all). Naturally it could be a lot smaller as a grocery getter but highway driving has to be considered in this country and I don't want to get there among the big rigs in some 800 kg tincan that is thrown around by the slipstreams.