"tier levels" in Motorsport

[regoon]

I have always wondered what are the tier levels in motorsport genre.
In terms of generalized racing in any circuit track, what type of racing is the fastest and the next?

There are so many types of racing that I get confused all together as to which is faster. We have Le Mans prototypes, Daytona proto, Super GT, NASCAR's stockcar, FIA GT, etc...

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that F1 would be placed #1 but then what is #2? #3? #4? etc...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You can't really compare Formula 1 to NASCAR. You can, however, compare open-wheelers to open-wheelers, and there is a tier system in place to help driers through the ranks. At the very peak is Formula 1, of course. The next level is GP2, where most of the new drivers come from. The FIA has also established a Formula 2 series, which it intends to be on par with GP2, but right now it hasn't got nearly the same reputation. And most of the GP2 and Formula 2 drivers come from the many Formula 3 series (British, Italian, the Euroseries, etc.), World Series by Renault, International Formula Master and the newly-established GP3 series. And beneath that, you've got karting. It's like a pyramid structure, so that only the fastest drivers will be able to advance to the next level.

 

[Northstar]

I don't think there are any real tiers in the term you are using. It will all come down to what someone prefers. The only was tiers really exist is when there is a development league.

 

[Ardius]

There isn't really tiers in performance (well, there are, but its not the only ranking), its really split into local, national and international races. Its difficult to say which series are faster than others too, because the rules for many of them are constantly changing and "who is fastest?" largely depends on the type of track and rule set.

Racing series are really tiered by level of competition and the cost to race.
I am not well knowledged in the American racing scene but I know globally it goes something like:
Open wheel:
-Karting
-Formula Ford
-National Formula Renault/Formula BMW/Formula Palmer Audi/manufacturer spec series formula
-National Formula 3
-World Series by Renault/Formula 2/GP2
-Formula 1/Indycar

Sportscars:
-Karting/Fomrula Ford/National Formula/Smaller sportscars (like the Ginetta Juniors)
-One-make series Cup (e.g. Renault Clio Cup)
-National Touring Cars/National Endurance series (usually based on FIA GT or Touring rules)
-FIA GT
-Le Mans Series

There's a lot of cross over and there's some weird anomalies like WTCC which is really at the same level as national series like BTCC in terms of speed but the cost to race is greater (as its jumping around the world rather than in one country).
Its fairly common for most of the sportscar drivers to come up through open wheel categories and switch because there is very little support at the lowest levels for sportscar racing, at least professionally anyway, you could graduate from historic touring car racing or various other local meetings.

Also, I've based this ranking on the European racing scene, its probably a little different in the US as I don't believe the same kind of support is given at least in open wheel.
From what I've read, its more tuned around leading to NASCAR rather than anything else although there is plenty of local level racing going on.

I haven't included NASCAR as I don't know enough to be able to rank it in terms of speed, costs and publicity compared to other series, I'd actually consider it a seperate ladder entirely. Its not really a sportscar series in the general sense.
But the top of the NASCAR ladder is easily up there with F1, Indycar, WRC and the Le Mans series for publicity and level of skill. The Le Mans series is the least publicised top line motorsport.

I'd rank SuperGT at the same level as the Le Mans series, which leads into my final point - the sportscars ladder may change soon because of the ACO World Sportscar Championship, we shall see if it returns to past glories. If it is successful, SuperGT, LMS, ALMS, etc will be at a similar level.

But if I had to rank them by performance on a circuit, my guess would be:
1. Formula 1
2. Le Mans prototypes
3. Indycars
4. NASCAR/FIA GT/SuperGT (not sure, don't know the laptime comparisons)

Formula 1 will always be fastest on circuits because of the huge levels of downforce and high power outputs. Le Mans prototypes are designed for maximum speed on the Mulsanne straight and endurance, they aren't special in the corners but have a greater amount of development than Indycar so I'm guessing they are faster. Indycar still has decent levels of downforce but not piles of horsepower, so its certainly ahead of the other sportscars.
The rest are probably very close, without looking at laptimes I can't guess.

 

[Jim Prower]

Oval track is a different tier level entirely.

Kid's series: Speedway Kart/1/4 midget/Bandolero
Local Track II: Midget/Sportsman stock car/Legends
Local Track I: Sprint car/Dirt Modified/Dirt Late Model/Local Asphalt Modified/Local Asphalt Late Model
Touring Series: World of Outlaws/USAC Silver Crown/NASCAR Featherlite Modified/ASA Pro Cup/NASCAR Canadian Tire Series/NASCAR regional Late Models
National Series: NASCAR Camping World Truck Series/ARCA RE/MAX series
High Profile II: NASCAR Nationwide Series
High Profile I: NASCAR Sprint Cup

As far as performance...I might put Indycar slightly ahead of LMP on a circuit, especially in road course trim. I'd have put the old Champ Car Series ahead of the current Indycar formula, though.

 

[regoon]

Have you guys tried racing these cars against each other on Forza 3 (sadly, which is the next best thing until GT5 comes out).

It is always nice to see the NASCAR's stock car destroying the Super GT cars around an oval like they should be considering that is what they are built for. As for other tracks that have a lot of turns, I would expect the Super GT to beat the stock car quite easily.

I have only tried racing NASCAR and Super GT together but have not tried FIA GT, DTM, and Super GT in a 3 way battle. I don't even know if Forza even have these FIA GT or DTM?

Either way, do you people have any lap times so we can get an idea as to which car is faster between Super GT and DTM?

 

[MatskiMonk]

DTM and SuperGT GT500 class rules look like they are going to be 'equalized' in 2011 - so it's safe to say DTM and SuperGT will be about the same in future...

A recent test was done in order to establish a benchmark for the SGT GT500's and DTM.. apparentley one was 8 secs faster than the other, but I don't know which!

 

[Clark]

Ardius, I'd argue that GP2 is on it's own level as WSR and F2 are not at that level, maybe F2 will eventually be at the same level though. WSR was never meant to be and will never be held in the same regard as GP2, although I think many people see it as better than F2 (except on price) as it offers experience in a 'big' single seater.

And FIA GT/LMS is difficult as there are alot of GT teams that only do FIA GT, and see it as a more important title, teams that are maybe more GT racing based rather than endurance racing. Alot of the cars are faster in FIA GT (due to driver and team), especially so in GT1.

 

[Ardius]

Ardius, I'd argue that GP2 is on it's own level as WSR and F2 are not at that level, maybe F2 will eventually be at the same level though. WSR was never meant to be and will never be held in the same regard as GP2, although I think many people see it as better than F2 (except on price) as it offers experience in a 'big' single seater.

And FIA GT/LMS is difficult as there are alot of GT teams that only do FIA GT, and see it as a more important title, teams that are maybe more GT racing based rather than endurance racing. Alot of the cars are faster in FIA GT (due to driver and team), especially so in GT1.

I rank those open wheel series at the same level because they all award super licenses, GP2 is faster than the other two but it is also more expensive and follows F1 around the world, F2 and WSR are cheaper alternative ways into F1 and so are around about the same area on the ladder, that said the skill level in F2 isn't there yet, but it will grow over the years if it continues to be the cheap option.
I'm also not convinced spec-series are true displays of driver skill, as inevitably a car will favour one driving style over another, a spec series merely compounds and exaggerates the problem.

If I was ranking them by speed, then sure, GP2 would be way ahead of F2 and WSR. But I was not ranking them just by speed.

 

[regoon]

DTM and SuperGT GT500 class rules look like they are going to be 'equalized' in 2011 - so it's safe to say DTM and SuperGT will be about the same in future...

A recent test was done in order to establish a benchmark for the SGT GT500's and DTM.. apparentley one was 8 secs faster than the other, but I don't know which!

Can you please go indepth as to what equalized means? Do you mean they have to adhere to the same rules such as specific engines, weight, downforce, etc...?

I don't think they should do that. There are a lot of people such as myself that want to know which of the organization had the faster cars. Thus, what they should try and experiment first is race their own cars without having to equalize anything. And if it proves to be on an even playing field, then they shouldn't have to equalize anything. If they do equalize the rules, it wouldn't really be Super GT vs. DTM anymore if you know what I mean.

Thoughts?

 

[Clark]

I've read that in the DTM + SGT it's mostly the tyres that need to be equalised, in Autosport ex DTM and SGT driver Peter Dumbreck said the Super GT cars have far, far better tyres, mostly due to the fact that a control tyre is used in DTM.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Can you please go indepth as to what equalized means? Do you mean they have to adhere to the same rules such as specific engines, weight, downforce, etc...?

I don't think they should do that. There are a lot of people such as myself that want to know which of the organization had the faster cars. Thus, what they should try and experiment first is race their own cars without having to equalize anything. And if it proves to be on an even playing field, then they shouldn't have to equalize anything. If they do equalize the rules, it wouldn't really be Super GT vs. DTM anymore if you know what I mean.

Thoughts?

From http://www.touringcartimes.com

Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters-organiser ITR has put forward a proposal on specifications for their new car, set to be introduced in 2011 or 2012. ITR is looking to merge the new DTM rules with the GT500 class of the Japanese Super GT-series.

By Johan Meissner Friday, 15 January 2010 14:41 CET

Japanese magazine Autosport reported the following specifications suggested for the new DTM/GT500 car:

- Common carbon monocoque with roll cage
- Wheelbase of 2850 mm
- Common front and rear overhang
- Common front spoiler and rear diffuser
- V8 engine of yet to be announced size
- Limited number of engines during season
- Introduction of "design line" where on one side all cars are common
- 51% cost reduction compared to current DTM regulations

A DTM car is reported to have been brought over to Japan for a comparison with a GT500 car. Spanish site Sportmotores reported that the difference between the both cars were seven seconds per lap.

The Japanese teams are seemingly positive about the new plans but think that it will not be ready for next year.

"The negotiations are positive if you think about the future. But I do not think the regulations will be put in to force before 2012," said NISMO president Sanda to the Japanese magazine Autosport

That is all I know.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Have you guys tried racing these cars against each other on Forza 3 (sadly, which is the next best thing until GT5 comes out).

It is always nice to see the NASCAR's stock car destroying the Super GT cars around an oval like they should be considering that is what they are built for. As for other tracks that have a lot of turns, I would expect the Super GT to beat the stock car quite easily.

I have only tried racing NASCAR and Super GT together but have not tried FIA GT, DTM, and Super GT in a 3 way battle. I don't even know if Forza even have these FIA GT or DTM?

Either way, do you people have any lap times so we can get an idea as to which car is faster between Super GT and DTM?

I´d say that´s quite moot. A SGT would destroy a CoT at any track, simply because of its massive downforce. In games the FIA GT cars tend to be faster than the SGT´s aswell, whereas IRL they are several seconds behind the SGT´s. In fecent testing at Suzuka, NISMO ran both the new FIA GT1 car and the SGT GTR. The SGT was some six seconds quicker over one lap.

And a GT1 Corvette is a couple of seconds quicker than a CoT around a roadcourse. A CoT would most likely be a tad quicker on a big oval like Talladega though.
SGT´s are about as fast as a LMP2 around Suzuka IRL, and no NASCAR could ever achieve that.

SGT´s can share a few parts with the roadcar, if they want to. IIRC they can share the A-pillars and the roof and get some fringes for it.

As for fast, there are different fasts, as many have pointed out. The fastest per se has to be top fuel dragracing though. On a circuit, Indycars tend be very quick on ovals, but on roadcourses F1 is the king class.

LMP1´s are about as fast around a roadcourse as an Indycar, but wouldn´t stand a chance on an oval.

 

[regoon]

A DTM car is reported to have been brought over to Japan for a comparison with a GT500 car. Spanish site Sportmotores reported that the difference between the both cars were seven seconds per lap.

Shame that they didn't go into detail as to which of the car was faster...

 

[arvin charles]

A SGT would destroy a CoT at any track, simply because of its massive downforce. In games the FIA GT cars tend to be faster than the SGT´s aswell, whereas IRL they are several seconds behind the SGT´s. In fecent testing at Suzuka, NISMO ran both the new FIA GT1 car and the SGT GTR. The SGT was some six seconds quicker over one lap.

And a GT1 Corvette is a couple of seconds quicker than a CoT around a roadcourse. A CoT would most likely be a tad quicker on a big oval like Talladega though.
SGT´s are about as fast as a LMP2 around Suzuka IRL, and no NASCAR could ever achieve that.

Actually, how fast a SGT car can go would depend on the track. On a twisty track like Suzuka, a SGT car will be faster than a GT1 car because of all the aero helping it corner better.

On a power track with long straights, like La Sarthe, the SGT car would have problems against the power of the GT1 cars. Not to mention, that all the extra aero that helps them corner will work against them by having a larger drag coefficient for the long straights.

 

[Clark]

I think a CoT would have trouble against a GT3 car on a conventional course, despite it's massive power advantage.

 

[regoon]

How big are the tires used in NASCAR?
They should start using bigger tires and lowering the height to start.

Also, how fast are the GT3 cars in a 1/4 mile? I know that the COT can get to 10ish.