Time to change the game-play!

[Biggles]

When the GT series started there was probably a limited ability to create good AI, so the game was structured around specific "tests", "races" & "missions" which required "learning the pattern" through trial & error & executing them perfectly (on the hard level) in order to pass. In this way, GT was like a lot of other types of video game.

GT4 was a huge game partly because it had a lot of these tests, races & missions to get through. Unfortunately a lot of them weren't all that interesting or realistic.

It's true that GT5P is not a "full game", but as a "prologue", I would expect it to reflect the character of the upcoming full game, but with a smaller content ie. less cars & tracks. Yes, the graphics are superb (as we would expect from PD), the physics are excellent (a big improvement on the past), but the AI & collision physics are not so good (although better than GT4) & there is still no damage.

It seems to me that in GT5P, PD is resorting to the same old game-play formula where you are given a "faster" car & required to drive circles around the (predictable) AI. If PD had something different in mind for GT5, I would have expected to see some more evidence of it in GT5P. The only way I see for PD to introduce a more realistic style of game-play, is for them to drastically improve the AI, collision physics & damage equation. I certainly hope this is going to happen , maybe it will 👍, but I'm not yet seeing much evidence of it in GT5P.

 

[tinram]

here's my thoughts ...

- Variety is the spice of life.
- uninteresting events, may look that way when you have been playing for days on end. But playing GT again after a couple of weeks, i find some uninteresting events to be fun. Which brings me to a point, PD is trying to cover a large fan base with different interests, so overtaking the whole pack in one lap may just provide some fun for some folks.
- You can set the AI high enough with a challenging car to drive and try to simply keep your position.
- and like everything else there is always room for improvement, and PD/Kaz knows that.

 

[Duke]

- and like everything else there is always room for improvement, and PD/Kaz knows that.

They know that, it must be true. However, for several of the crucial gameplay factors, they've shown either little interest in making them better (AI driving ability up to now), or they have in fact made them worse (AI field selections between GT3 and GT4).

 

[Rocket Punch]

My biggest problem is they keep saying its a "Real Driving Simulator" , yet they kept cranking out pointless POS gamplay like the orginal Atari "Grand Prix"

 

[magburner]

Run the same race more than once and you will notice the AI is interacting differently around you each time.

I know I've said the AI is poor, but last night I was racing an s-class 700pp event at Fuji, and there was a bunch of cars ahead of me. For a second I fooled myself into thinking this was an online race. A car went wide, and I mocked it! Another car rubbed me as we entered the corner, and I was cursing. I felt like I was racing online, but the race was a lot fairer.

The point is, I felt like the AI was similar to very passive human beings. I think PD have drastically altered the AI, they need to make it competitive now! 👍

My biggest problem is they keep saying its a "Real Driving Simulator" , yet they kept cranking out pointless POS gamplay like the orginal Atari "Grand Prix"

It is a real driving simulator! Not literally, but then no simulation is, is it?

 

[JB-BMW1989]

After trying to attempt two of the ten S classes missions, S-7 and S-10, the AI is far from perfect, but yet atrocious. Even after an update, the whole thing is still an incomplete extended demo. If Kazunori would have an AI difficulty option in GT5P, and not just in arcade mode, but in racing missions as well, it would be easier for us to have all gold instead after several tries doing them. Then again, Kazunori wouldn't like that kind of decision. It's very uncomfortable to have 15 AI cars to go that fast at that rated speed during a 5 lap race around any track, thus not realistic. They also drive the same line in just about every cars, and they still go fast while making a turn. Yeah, it is an incomplete game, but the demo is too far from perfect. Let's see what can Yamauchi-sama resolve the AI issue and we'll discuss about it until then. Time for me to go online. I'll post up my PSN ID with just a few moments.

EDIT: okay, my PSN ID is apr76. See you online.

 

[FoolKiller]

Much better would be having the AI races just a section of the game in order to unlock cars, tracks etc, and then making the online racing the focus of the game as far as genuine competition is concerned.

No, no, no, no. My biggest complaint about gaming is when companies get their online working well and then gimp their singleplayer (I call this Halo syndrome). I have completely abandoned certain game series because of this. You can guess which was first based on my name for this practice.

The singleplayer still needs to be an in-depth skill oriented setup. I don't care how great online is if the singleplayer experience is weak it shows the developers didn't bother with important details like layout, plot, story, gameplay, and whatever else was considered necessary to make a good game pre-Internet.



All that said, I agree with the OP. Passing 15 cars in one lap is ridiculous. I have personally found myself bumping AI cars unintentionally because the aggressive manner required to pull this off has me making mistakes that I don't do under normal racing conditions.

The races starting in the middle of the pack and lasting 2-3 laps is acceptable, because I can do that with clean racing. But when it becomes an unrealistic effort it takes something out of it.

Someone mentioned qualifying, and I think this is an ideal situation if we are only going to be doing 2-3 lap races. If the AI is being realistic and given realistic qualifying times then player placement and ability to complete is angled more toward their skill than ability to slam through 15 cars.

 

[MustangRyan]

I want to see the AI in GT5 geared more toward clean and semi-aggressive driving. This should make for a field full of competitive drivers provided that reasonable vehicle selection and power limitations are in place. With a full field of 16 similar cars, there is no reason to have more than half of the field roll over and play dead (like in GT4). That said, no race should be shorter than 15 or 20 minutes. Making the field more competitive and allowing the racer more time to finesse their way through the field should prove to be a winning combination for gameplay. I would also prefer to see more varied medium-to-long championship series than a lot of spot race events.

 

[Biggles]

Part of the arcade nature of the game-play does come from featuring such short races. It's as if the attention span of the average gamer will only extend up to 5 or 6 minutes.

The point of my original post remains: as the GT series has further developed with each version, there is now an odd disconnect between the sophistication of the driving modelling & graphics, & the arcade nature of a lot of the racing. It's ironic that a lot of the best racing in GT5P (as in GT4) is to be found in the "Arcade" mode.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

Personally I like the mission and license setup. It appeals to the "gamer" in me: having to complete all the levels and win the "you finished the game" movie. It's a tradition in my house now, when a new GT comes out - I stay up all night unlocking as much as I can before collapsing in a near coma.

Then, and only then, does the driving sim kick in and I spend hours racing against my ghost (or the ghost my mates laid down the last time there was beer in the fridge) trying to find the best lines on the best tracks in my favourite cars, fine tuned over a period of months.

And now, with online racing, I have that element of dodging car-sized chunks of flying shrapnel if I so desire

But my vote is more dumb tests and stupid licenses please mr polyphony - I'm still a gamer at heart

 

[myke6699]

I find the NA version has a dumbed down AI compared to spec 1 japanese/asian version. Could it be that as in GT1, SCEA thinks that North American hates losing hence the easier nature of the competition I still have the spec 1 of the Hong Kong version and while i can't understand chinese, the one particular S-class race (Suzuka, 10 laps) is probably the hardest GT race ever. My best finish is 5th (field of 16) and I breezed to gold in all the S-class NA version.

My suggestion for the NA version: in order to make the races harder, closer and more exciting (against AI) is to tune you car to stock (default) setting and if you're lucky enough to have a steering wheel (in my case, a logitech G25 set it to Simulation- 1 up from Professional in the steering wheel setting with no power assist) and set up to Professional Mode (Drive Setting), Active Brake: Off and set your traction control to the lowest that you're comfortable with. Hopefully with this setting winning won't be so easy because this is the closest you get to actual racing in a game. FM2 doesn't hold a candle to how realistic GT5P comes to actual racing: it is when you're constantly battling between losing traction and commanding control of your vehicle. With proper steering wheel, the amount of feedback is amazing. When I race the Ford GT, every time I cross the finish line, not only do I get the sense of accomplishment, I also feel relieved.

 

[dark_ruffo]

Agree, and its still in Development, so we will see more length races when GT5 comes out

Let's not.

Judging by what we have now, we will start 5 laps behind the leader in a 10 laps race.

 

[P3nT4gR4m]

My suggestion for the NA version: in order to make the races harder, closer and more exciting (against AI) is to tune you car to stock (default) setting and if you're lucky enough to have a steering wheel (in my case, a logitech G25 set it to Simulation- 1 up from Professional in the steering wheel setting with no power assist)

Doesn't everyone? I can't properly feel what the wheels are doing on any other setting.

 

[dark_ruffo]

Yeah, is what everyone does to have fun races... Pick an inferior car and go out to race against the AI.

I just had a very fun race using a stock Elise 111r @ Fuji against 40-42AI (don't remember).

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ALOJ21UK

That's what I call overtaking. What do you think?

BTW, Pro Mode, no ABS, no AIDS, N3 tires.

 

[AlfaAlfa]

...but GT is "the real driving simulator" and a large portion of the game is devoted to collecting cars, otherwise they wouldn't offer as many as they do.

...there is now an odd disconnect between the sophistication of the driving modelling & graphics, & the arcade nature of a lot of the racing...

I think this is what PD wants. They have always had the opportunity to go towards a more racing oriented game yet have consistently chosen to design events around putting the player into a wide variety of vehicles. There is a member of GTP (can't recall who) that always refers to GT as "the real car collecting simulator". Given the continued success of GT, I doubt there will be any changes in that basic approach in the near future. Racing is secondary to sampling.

 

[Biggles]

I think this is what PD wants. They have always had the opportunity to go towards a more racing oriented game yet have consistently chosen to design events around putting the player into a wide variety of vehicles. There is a member of GTP (can't who) that always refers to GT as "the real car collecting simulator".

It's possible that this is true. PD does seem to have ignored the direction of games like NFS & more recently DiRT & GRID in providing an "exciting" racing experience. Instead they have focused on a lot of cars & tracks & particularly the detailed graphic modelling of the cars - an appeal to the "car-lover" rather than the "racer".

But with the introduction of Forza, PD now has a console rival that also offers a wide array of card & tracks, detailed car modelling (& customization) & a more sophisticated racing experience. The success of the GT series was established by PD being a pioneer & an innovator. I don't think it's so certain that PD can hang on to that overwhelming success in the future, without continuing to innovate. They've done a great job improving the physics (& of course the graphics), but I really feel it's time they changed the "traditional" Gran Turismo structure of the game-play to something more realistic & dynamic, where it's not necessary to slog through a mass of repetitive "mission-races" in order to advance through the game.