Tires too grippy...

  • Thread starter Thread starter GTAQV
  • 72 comments
  • 10,193 views
G

GTAQV

Messages
26
Portugal
Portugal
I haven't been testing all tires against the clock, but i've noticed that the lap times produced in sports hard where too good.
I've confimed this running against the clock a group of sports and super cars in tsukuba.
I've used this circuit because is small and because i've a decent idea of how real life road cars perform there...
With all the tested cars i was able to easily post times that where too quick...
To give a better understanding here are some examples:
mclaren f1 - 58.6s
ferrari 458 italia - 59.7s
Ferrari f40 - 60.0s
Honda nsx r 92 - 63.0s


This times aren't polished and all could be improved(some more than others)...
To check if tsukuba wasn't the problem, i toke the ferrari f40 to nordschleife and in my first try i pulled a lap of 7:50, while driving in a moderately conservative way because as you probably know, while you're getting used the f40 can be troublesome...

I should also mention that apart from the abs set to 1, i use no helps at all, and of course i'm no alien, in other words any member of the mentioned group would crush my times by several seconds...

I'm loving gt6 and the way cars behave in the game, from my point of view the car handling is great and better than ever, but if the game offers 6 different types of road tires why to make them more grippy than they should?
 
It's a (somewhat) well known issue. Most aware of the unrealistically grippy tires that come "stock" on most of the cars in the game stick to Comfort tires for road cars. The same is true on the Racing end of the sets. Racing Mediums and Racing Softs are, in general, way, way too grippy.

As to why they do it? Because most players, casual or not, don't get the sense of speed they expect with these more realistically grippy tires. The first time you put on Comfort tires on a supercar in the game, you're greeted with understeer. Lots of it. Then you're greeted with oversteer. Lot of it. Once you get used to the sense of speed you need, you start to feel how much more progressive and forgiving the Comfort tires are. Many aren't willing to accept this "slower" pace because it feels, at first, much more pedestrian.
 
eran0004
Why are those times too good? What are you comparing with?
Click to expand...

Ok, here's a list of times for reference(these are times performed by professional racers):

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/tsukuba.html

Of course this times are just a reference, because there are many factors like the tires used, track conditions and so forth and so on...

For those who that like me have watched tons of best motoring videos, it's clear that the times i achieved would be crazy fast in real life...


For example the modern nsx-r and GTR have been run countless time in battles and time attacks, and driven by professional racers with tires that would at least be equivalent to the sports hard tires, the best they ever did was like 1:03.9 for the NSX-R and i think the gtr got a bit bellow 1:02...
 
I get what you're saying, bur for example there are 3 types of sports tires, why not have the sports hard with a more realistc grip level and let the ocasional driver (or uninterested in realism driver) switch the tires for the softs...
 
In GT5 I once took the Ferrari 599 to the Top Gear Test Track and lapped with every tyre from Comfort Hard to Race Soft. When you do this, you quickly get a feel for how the tyre grip levels progress and of course knowing the TGTT record for the real life 599 comparison is possible. And yes, CS tyres got me the closest to the real life laptime.

Equally, there was once a live race between David Coulthard (in a real SLS car) and GT5 gamers in the virtual SLS around TGTT, with a worldwide time trial being put up afterwards. They used Comfort Softs on the SLS to equate to the real car's grip levels, although interestingly DC actually beat all 10 of the gamers who were racing him live (although later I think DC's time was comfortably beaten once people across the globe starting running time trial laps by the millions).

Sports tyres are basically cut slick track day tyres. Perfectly legitimate, probably road legal (at least SH, not sure about SS) but not the kind of tyre you'd drive home on after lapping the ring. Very few road cars come with such tyres fitted as standard.
 
Lets not forget that in a game there is no risk of injury and that makes drivers faster than they would be in real life. I know I can crank out some good times on the ring in games but in real life I would be 1-2 minutes slower even in a car with more speed and more grip as I would be much more careful.
 
59.7 for the Ferrari 458 vs 1:02 IRL isnt that bad, considering that you dont have any fear going in any curve in the game.
I'll be curious to see time made with a proper cockpit simulator with G effect and all. I bet that those time would be slighty slower than IRL.
You can only simulate to a certain point in a game that dont really let you feel those G's.
 
Last edited:
I actually found the tyres in GT5 weren't grippy enough. After driving real cars in the wet and dry, I found that cars in 5 were a little too slippery and would let go without much warning. Real cars have a surprising amount of traction, even on the limit.

The tyres in 6 are much better with a more gradual loss of traction which allows you to keep pushing until the limit is reached.

Sport tyres are much better now IMO.
 
No way on GT5 tires lacking grip. The physics has been updated in GT6, but the tire scale has been skewed for some time now. I only really started to notice and pay attention in GT5P, so I can't comment on the previous versions.

The fear argument, though somewhat valid, can only go so far as the explanation for the speed differential between a professional racing driver lap time and a fearless gamer lap time.

A lack of real-world senses can, however, explain why the more realistic tires may feel off. Without seat of the pants cues, periphery visual cues, vibration cues, inner ear (g-force) cues, we are left with vibrating controllers, FFB from wheels, and audio and visual cues. One must relearn, in a sense, how to read the now limited set of cues in order to correct and induce various driving scenarios.
 
Sports tyres are basically cut slick track day tyres. Perfectly legitimate, probably road legal (at least SH, not sure about SS) but not the kind of tyre you'd drive home on after lapping the ring. Very few road cars come with such tyres fitted as standard.
Click to expand...
They exist pretty much for that reason.
You can drive to the track because they are road legal, do a few laps an the track where they perform better than street tires and then drive home again.
You don't need a trailer or spare tires to get your car to the track.

Edit:
Example Toyo R888, Kumho V70A, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup or Yokohama AD08
 
Last edited:
^^ True story.

Behold, the Toyo r888.....
TOYO%20R888%20ROAD%20LEGAL.jpg


100% road legal, unless you burn them down to the canvass whilst on the track.
 
My Rule of thumb for non race cars

Everything below that Comfort Hard
T1R - Comfort Medium
R1R - Comfort Soft
R888 semi slick - Sports Hard
Kumho z214 (only 1 line) semi slick - Sports Medium
Slicks - Sports Soft

If you have tyre wear off then the tyre uses max grip from the beginning that's why u think it grips so much! So with tyre wear off go one tyre down!
 
Sports hards are not representative of the tyres fitted to those cars from the factory... try them on comforts softs and see what times you get 👍
 
I also think that the behaviour of the sport hard tires is better than ever, this being how they feel, how progressive they are... i just think that theyre grip shouldn't be as high as it is.


I remember in gt5, there was an help menu that described what each tire type represented. If i remember correctly something like a michelin pilot sport cup would be perhaps a sport medium, and the sport soft would repesent this same tire on its first kms / miles when it's new and offers its best grip...

Even in gt5 i think the tires were bit too grippy but now in gt6 in that regard they got worse, but as i said before i also agree that their feel an progressiveness got much much better.
 
Dude....if you think SH is too grippy, use comforts. Its not really an issue.
Its not like they give you exact tyre models...like some p zeros or yokos or dunlops or whatnot.. and then you go drive a car with em, and can offer comparison.
They are generic tyre types, made for a videogame.

there are many issues in the game vs real life
Are the brakes exactly like real life?
Aerodynamics?
Tuning upgrades?
Steering response?
The list can go on and on...

The only thing in the game that might be 100% accurate is the sun and stars :)
 
Stotty
Sports hards are not representative of the tyres fitted to those cars from the factory... try them on comforts softs and see what times you get 👍
Click to expand...

As i just mention, i think they were suposed to be, but they just aren't...

Also, i'll try the confort soft tires but i fear they will behave more like a normal road tire than a sport tire. I'm not talking about the maximum grip, but how the tire bends, the slip angle at which it will offer good grip...
 
GTAQV
As i just mention, i think they were suposed to be, but they just aren't...

Also, i'll try the confort soft tires but i fear they will behave more like a normal road tire than a sport tire. I'm not talking about the maximum grip, but how the tire bends, the slip angle at which it will offer good grip...
Click to expand...

I don't think SH have ever represented regular road tyres as fitted to almost all cars from the factory.

I always saw it like this in Michelin terms...

Comfort soft = MPS
Sports hard = MPS Cup

There's too big a performance jump between CS and SH in the game for SH to be a MPS, and SH are pictured as having a very limited tread pattern in the game.
 
I always feel Comfort Soft is about a normal summer tires for regular cars, ans Sports Hard is about what you get for the "street tire" AutoX tires(TW rating 140-200 ish, like Direzza ZII or RE-11 or something). Sports Medium and Soft are like various degree of R-Comps...I find the SH in GT5 is easier to drive though. I feel like these tire in 6 can be saturated quite quickly and the drop off past peak is more pronounced...
 
This season, Comfort Softs are the new Sports Hard!

Let me explain; In GT5 my warm up car before going Shuffle racing, was the Roadster 2007 with Comfort Soft tyres (stock) on Tsukuba. My average lap times were in the low 1'10's. To get similar times with the same car & track combo in GT6, I have to put on Comfort Medium tyres.

I tested the same thing in a stock F430 Scuderia on Monza. To get the same times in GT6 that I used to get in GT5, I had to go down one tyre level, in this case from Sports Hard to Comfort Soft.

The tyres are more grippy in GT6 compared to GT5. However, regarding losing the rear end, the point of no return is much more realistic/savage in GT6 than in GT5.
 
Treadware ratings vary between manufacturers and it's not a tightly regulated specification. So, it's just as arbitrary as PD tire names.

My go to is Tsukuba lap times. For such a small course, it provides a variety of corners and situations to test performance and feel. There's also boat loads of lap time info. If I can destroy a lap time outright, it's time to move down a grade. If it takes me 10 laps, I know I'm on the right track (no pun).
 
But treadwear is a good starting point. A 100 rated tire will always have more grip than a 500, period. Bringing MFG's into it would over complicate things even further. Just pick a standard and stick with that.

Laguna Seca is my go to track, because I've driven it the most IRL, aside from Portland, and i know what laps look like there.
 
The whole tire thing would make a lot more sense if they would allow race tires only on race cars.
(Only exception drag tires for street cars if we ever get a "Dragracing DLC")

And if they would skip Comfort hard/medium and call the Comfort Soft "Street" and 95% of the road cars come with them from the dealer (and they should match the real car"s tires a close as possible)

Sport hard only on very few cars that also come with "Semislicks" IRL (M3 CSL/GTR, 911 GT3, Caterham) but available for all road cars in the shop.
Plus sport medium and soft, representing different kinds of road legal semi race tires.

Edit:
Sport hard should represent something like the Yokohama AD08 that is closer to street tires and works ok in the wet and the sport soft representing something like the Toyo r888 that is about the best road legal grip you can get in the dry but with problems in the wet/cold.

How fast the tires get up to temp. (And cool down in wet) also needs work.

At the moment you can drive with race hard in rain/standing water with little problems and the temp does not even go down...
 
Last edited:
Nismo 400R at Tsukuba on Sports Hard:

and on Comfort Softs:

The car was left stock 294kW (400HP) 1553kg (3kg added to match FastestLap.com stats, Drivers weight is not included nota bene, we should also consider that when comparing)

To include or simulate the "fear factor" or sense of speed we don´t have in a game I concentrate on the tire screeching, trying to avoid having too much of it. Its just to slow myself down somehow.

Steering type: simulation(not sure is affecting a G27, but to be sure :D ) Steering-aid: off and FFB is on 6

Driving options, put everything off, exept ABS on 1 (not sure about the 400R having ABS, but I think it does) controler sensitivity on +6 (since that does affect wheels) using clutch and H-shifter on G27.

Everything else remained untouched.

So, SH : 1:03,722 (Easy drive, really far from going any close into grip limits)

CS: 1,05,375 (pushing a bit harder this time)

FastestLaps.com recorded a 1:04,0 Lap time on a ´97 model (In game model is a ´96)

The car came with Bridgestone Potenza RE710kai, my guess is these were also used in said lap.
As mentioned above in the thread, there are many different tires and each have different grip level, performance and feeled feedback, how can you simulate that exact tire model? You can´t, you can only guess it´s closer to this one or that one.

In this case, I would tend to CS, simply because the time set on SH was so easy to achieve. So I agree with the OP in regard to SH being too grippy, but there too grippy for an average road tire even for something a bit more than average RE710kai, If I try harder I´m sure 1:04,0 on CS is doable, pushing really hard many can surely go far lower than that (but pushing wasn´t part of my comparison, as explained).

In the end, simulating a million different variants of tires is utopic, all we can do is find our own way to compare and decide for ourselves wich tire we want to use on our cars.

stb155
The whole tire thing would make a lot more sense if they would allow race tires only on race cars.
(Only exception drag tires for street cars if we ever get a "Dragracing DLC")

And if they would skip Comfort hard/medium and call the Comfort Soft "Street" and 95% of the road cars come with them from the dealer (and they should match the real car"s tires a close as possible)

Sport hard only on very few cars that also come with "Semislicks" IRL (M3 CSL/GTR, 911 GT3) but available for all road cars in the shop.
Plus sport medium and soft, representing different kinds of road legal semi race tires.
Click to expand...
Let people put RS tires on their Golf I GTi´s if they want to play the game like this? I think its a fair enough treat they set prices for racing tires pretty high.

I don´t think they will ever call tires any different, we have always had these.
 
Last edited:
Not sure if it's the tyres that are more grippy, or that the new physics means there's much less understeer... which was always the limiting factor in lap times on GT5.
 
I think this forum badly needs a symbol for what type of controller the poster is using. I'm tired of reading through physics/grip comments from people using DS3.
GT5 had too little grip in tires? Waaaaat?

I agree with this:
RacingManiac
I always feel Comfort Soft is about a normal summer tires for regular cars, ans Sports Hard is about what you get for the "street tire" AutoX tires(TW rating 140-200 ish, like Direzza ZII or RE-11 or something). Sports Medium and Soft are like various degree of R-Comps...I find the SH in GT5 is easier to drive though. I feel like these tire in 6 can be saturated quite quickly and the drop off past peak is more pronounced...
Click to expand...
CS is probably between a regular 'summer' aka three-season tires and something like a good summer tire (think Michelin Pilot Super Sport). Conti DW would be a good approximation of CS.
SH is your autox/track road tire. Your Ad08s, Rivals, RE11s, RS3s etc.
Regular modern all seasons are probably a bit under CM grip.

Anything above SH is not road legal, anything above RH should not exist.

I get sad when I see some racing series/club give their car choices too much grip relative to what that car's chasis was designed for in order to "promote cleaner racing".
 
Last edited:
btcanon
But treadwear is a good starting point. A 100 rated tire will always have more grip than a 500, period.
Click to expand...
TW rating is a marketing tool w/o a strict methodology. It's very possible to have a tire with 500 TW rating grip more than some other 100-rated tire, if a manufacturer wanted it so.
 
Let people put RS tires on their Golf I GTi´s if they want to play the game like this? I think its a fair enough treat they set prices for racing tires pretty high.
Click to expand...
Would be ok for me, but it would just be a lot more realistic if you can put them only on race cars or at least have to fit the races suspension and a cage.

You just don't see road cars driving around on real race tires IRL, if they do (trackdays, hillclimbs) they have a rollcage, race seat, racing harness and such stuff built in, and race suspension, because fitting supper grippy slicks would tear a stock suspension and also the body to bits sooner or later.

(Google E46 M3 rear axle tear or crack)
 

Latest Posts

Back