To exchange ideas from organising on GTS forum & learn more from you

[PhaedrusSocrate]

Hi everyone I became a member just prior to GT5 release and wasn't active until now, but...

I was fortunate to organise quite a number of diverse championships on my „native“ forum for Croatia and region – „GTSurgeons“, but since there is not much activity there during summer (as Croatia is quite tourism oriented) I would really appreciate if some of you would find a little spare time to discuss some ideas and insights.

Perhaps you've heard of Amar212, our founding father or Zoky_CRO the fastest feather in our cap
I also do enjoy making little videos from GT5 replays like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW_Oddj47j0&feature=youtu.be
(sorry for not so great resolution, it was my lack of know-how...)



Last couple of days I've been extensively reading through all threads here related to your championships and so many things and solutions impressed me.
Some just by being incredibly complex in their effort to emulate RL, and others by being totaly briliant solutions for enjoying opportunities than only virtual racing can provide!

(for example – „DIVISION SYSTEM“ which Denilson described in „PURE JGTS“ championship is truly great imho )



Well, I guess it's up to me to get this going, but let me be clear that I really have no ambition on becoming a regular organiser on GTP, for me this is just opportunity to exchange experience and ideas! And I will do my best to offer back something worth while as well...

I might start by „proposing to organise“ a championship but mainly for reason to get conversation going in the first place. And if we end up with doing just a couple of tests, it would be only if we find some of the ideas interesting enough... I'm sure that I'll find your feedback usefull in any case


Another reason to go reading through all your threads is to try to offer something different from what you already do here.
Well, that's impossible to do... regarding your choice of championships, that is!
So I'll propose how you can turn „up side down“ your usual ways of using cars within any championship. Hope you might find it at least interesting

And I hope to find few willing friends to make this summer much more fun and meaningfull. All kinds of comments are very welcome, thanks 💡



...

 

[Wardez]

Hey PhaedrusSocrate, might I call you Phaed?

Welcome! What an amazing outreach you're proposing, I love it. I'm also deeply interested in exhanging ideas for new series, formats, and solutions, especially across forums. Various forums tend to become naturally isolated over time and almost become like their little own racing eco habitats. So I'm sure jumping over here to see how we've done things in the past felt like being an astronaut on an alien world or something xD.

I've done the same as well, I've checked out GT Surgeons in the past and definitely have nothing but huge respect for amar and you lot 👍

I'm curious as to what sort of concepts and such you wanted to throw around, I'll be more than happy to discuss them and have fun just picking each other's brain.

I was especially flattered by your comment here praising Denilson's division system. He's a co-founder of Pure along with me, he's an organization genius in my book, one of the best. That system was originally proposed by Masicampo in a very basic form, then Denilson and I and Aderrrm and lots of others took it and it just became this monster. Unfortunately during the season we first implemented it in it became quite a chore to maintain as people were missing races due to the series being run in between holidays. So the system is much better applied to league racing of long schedule lengths (weekly series and such) rather than championship series.


Here's the system outline for those that are curious, feel free to try it in your own leagues if you'd like, all we need is a mention for Pure and we're good :

Division System::
This division system seems complicated at first, but really is a beautiful concoction of a thing that really is the fairest possible approach to allowing the closest racing possible in an online environment. The great thing about it is that this method rewards consistency, not absolute speed. Ok, now follow me here:
-Race 1- The divisions will intiially be set by a regular open qualification. This means every one will have a chance to make division 1 for the first race. Fastest 14 times make D1, and times 15-28 make D2.
Times from 29 down will form the waiting list.
So Race 1 will be raced as the result from the first qualifier.

-Race 2- The drivers who made D1 for stage 1, will automatically also be in D1 for race 2.
The grid for race 2 will be set similarly to the open qualifying week for race 1 but in this case, all drivers are locked into their divisions, meaning that even if you're faster than someone in D1 for race 2, you will stay in D2 and be ranked accordingly among the rest of last week's D2 drivers.

-After race 2- The total point scores from the previous two races for each driver will be combined. Bottom 4 scorers over the two races in D1 are demoted to D2 and top 4 scorers in D2 will be promoted to D1 for race 3.

-Race 3-4- Scores from races 3 and 4 will be combined in order to decide top scorers and lowest scorers for promotion/demotion going into race 5-Race 5-6Scores from races 5 and 6 will be combined in order to decide top scorers and lowest scorers for promotion/demotion going into race 7-Race 7-8Scores from races 7 and 8 will be combined in order to decide top scorers and lowest scorers for promotion/demotion going into race 9-Race 9

-Prior to race 10 the qualifier will be open as it was for race 1 to decide the grid for this final race.

DNS or non-point scoring DNF's WIP:
If a driver misses 1 of the 2 first races, for example, his one point scoring result will be taken then multiplied by 0.5 (yes, zero-point-five) to make a mock "virtual" value. This score will then be combined with the actual score in order to make a good estimated score based on his performance last race. The 0.5 multiplier acts as an allowance assuming the driver would have finished at or around the same position with a slight buffer given.

So if a D2 driver finished with 10 points in race 1 and then missed race 2 he will be ranked among the D2 drivers in consideration for promotion to D1 like so:
10 x 0.5 = 5 + 10 = 15. 15 will be the number we will use to compare against the other D2 drivers but this number will not be his actual point score. "15" is solely for ranking during promotion/demotion weeks. The driver in this example would only have 10 points posted to the points table. If the driver missed race 1 but not 2 then race 1 will act as the virtual score.

This number will be higher for those that actually attempted to join a race on raceday and wasn't able to continue due to technical problems. They must've at least been qualified and attempted to join a race room (race host of the room must confirm their attempt). If the driver did all they could to race but could not, they will get a DNS multiplier of 0.7.

Reserve Drivers/ drop ins:
Drivers joining in the middle of the season must always start in D2 of their first race. They can only get into D1 by scoring highly and being promoted for the next promotion race. Say they come in on race 6, but scores from race 5 and 6 are going to be used to promote the highest scorers. In this driver's case race 5 will be treated as the virtual score added with their actual score in round 6. If the combined virtual score is high enough when ranked with the other drivers (top 4) they will be promoted.*
Note, when calculating promotions/relegations, we only calculate the 2 most recent races. Previus points are not counted for. It would be a huge disadvantage for the new comers.

Thanks again, you're awesome!

You're free to check out our forum as well btw:
http://pure.gate19.net/forums

 

[PhaedrusSocrate]

Thank you, Wardez, for such a nice welcome It’s even kinder that anyone could expect, so thanks twice

It was indeed a privilege to find so many great ideas and solutions on this world’s no.1 GT Forum!

And no wonder I mentioned “Division System” because it just to my liking – I love elaborate but functional ideas when it comes to regulations regarding drivers. This one is just perfect, well done to all of you 👍

On opposite, I “hate” any complications regarding cars, so I always go for extreme simplicity and cutting out whatever I can.


PROBLEM no.1
(for me it's the biggest organizing nightmare off them all, ever!)

So, we have our GT300, GT500, DTM etc...
- and always HUGE, amounts of time are invested in trying to even out all available cars. It's clear why - if cars are not even then it's just exhibition driving instead of really competitive action packed one.
- Or we can use just a fraction of available cars that are most similar - but they will STILL be quite different.
- Or we „must“ settle for just 1 car and a very boring looking grid, since most of the racing models can't be painted or anything... and with 1 car it's more like just a Cup, not Championship!


And if we do even them all out, we create additional issues:
1.) Tuning must be allowed, witch demands ENORMOUS time investment from all serious competitors, to find perfect set-ups. The worst feeling for me, when it comes to competing, is being repeatedly beaten ONLY through superior/inferior set-ups... 'cause I don’t have RL mechanics by my side, and I'm not being paid for this „9 to 5“ ;D
2.) It gets hard JUST TO FOLLOW what tuning parts are allowed for certain car, but even bigger demand on organizers are elaborate procedures of controlling them and letting them on track...
3.) Most models are NO LONGER what they were supposed to be! Because they are tuned, they no longer represent their true nature. Yeah, they are „just pixels“ and not RL, but I still like them „PURE“...

 

[PhaedrusSocrate]

IT'S POSSIBLE TO PUT AWAY ALL OF THAT, MAKE AVAILABLE ALL OF THE CARS (of particular class) – AND YET MAKE SURE THAT MAGIC HAPPENDS!!!*

*(that all drivers have equal shot at the title)

1.) Simplified way
2.) More fun way

If you used following approach so long ago that I was unable to find anything similar in any of your current threads – please let me know, so that I can get on with something else




SIMPLIFIED WAY:
Perfect example is upcoming https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=259794 championship on this forum... Last year I've organized the same thing on GTSurgeons forum, only with a simple twist.

Our season had 6 races in total – BUT ALL 3 cars were available to all participants, and each to be used only TWICE DURING SEASON! On whatever track any driver preferred.
So, from the first to last race we had very diverse grid but also all participants had EQUAL shot for overall title.

And those not interested in overall title had a chance to select their preferred car for their preferred circuit and really „shine“ on one or two occasions Title hunters did just the opposite basically.
Because they had more choices they chose to enjoyed them 👍

In this case for magic to happened, all you need is to choose similar cars! They don't have to be equal at all, just reasonably similar!


Positive:
- saving time and energy of organizers on trying to even-out cars that are naturally supposed to be different.
- not exhausting time and energy of participants on set-up work. Yeah, it's big part of RL competition but that's why THEY have crews and sponsors Most of my friends prefer to have equal shot on title and just drive, drive, drive for it.
- no more boring, time wasting, control procedures. Being steward becomes more of an honor than a chore. The same goes for participants.
- adds additional strategy options.
- we get to experience cars real nature (non tuned), and get real feeling how they were changing along with RL regulations changes – that's history, man!
- we can focus all that time and energy into enjoying the cars and competition even more. And it's even easier to plan the next ones...


Negative:
- It still doesn't adequately solve issues for DTM... CLK is so enormously superior, while 190E even more so inferior to all other „average“ DTM cars. There is just no way they could work in the same race! (Or RAZO Silvia in GT300...)
Sure, give them better tyres and it gets just about right, but nah...




So eventually „More Fun Way“ came up
(Maybe I could take a breeder here, please feel free to post any type of comments )

 

[PhaedrusSocrate]

MORE FUN WAY

Simply using natural difference between (similar) cars to emulate effect of adding “weight” for the fastest competitors just by giving them slightly slower car – but this way we can keep “Tuning Prohibited” and still not end up with just one type of race car on the grid

That doesn’t mean that we use only 2-3 cars that drivers switch to and from, depending on how well they place in races. Because primary goal was to find the way to incorporate ALL available cars for any given competition. Like all of GT300 cars, or all DTM’s, etc…


Before short example of such season let me just mention two “safety switches”:
- Every time driver changes to a slightly slower car he gets awarded bonus points, that way no one even thinks about not scoring as high as possible (thinking that it’s better to hang on to faster car)
- For every 2 races missed it’s required to change car as well.


For this example let’s imagine 5 slightly different cars and rate them to their overall performance IN STOCK condition.
Car A
Car B
Car C
Car D
Car E
… and so on…


Now to RACE 1.
We all use the same car “A”! And most important thing here is who will finish in top 1/3 positions.
If there are any “aliens” present in the series, they will be the ones to mostly populate that. Business as usual right? But this time theirs (and everybody’s) factor of fun is about to go waay higher

RACE 2.
So, in this race aliens get to start with the car B, and other 2/3 of the grid are still privileged with driving car A.
Now faster of “non aliens” get a taste of completely new experience of leaving all other “turtles” behind and fighting for Victory! And slightly slower drivers now get a chance to fight tooth and nail against drivers who usually disappear far ahead (yeah, aliens) for rest of the points.

RACE 3.
Now the 2/3 (more or less) of fastest competitors race with car B, and this gives to those pesky "non humans" new realistic shot at victory and podiums.
BUT NOW THERE ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO CONSIDER HERE!
Simply because if anyone of them misses top 1/3 positions at the end of race 3. - will start to feel Title chances slipping away – because of that Bonus points awarded for getting into top 1/3.
Oh well, at least for the next race they'll have slightly superior car - What goes around, comes around - again and again.

That's the more fun way in all of this. Together with the solution for incorporating all the cars that we wanted, in stock condition, in a functional way!


Through example of these 3 theoretical races you can see how “cycle of cars” works and goes on and on – now the favorites are back in the saddle with equal cars to the most of the field. But in next race or two they will go to even slower cars (slightly, off course) and new cycle goes on.
And there is NEVER some enormous difference among the cars on track, because by time that the slower ones get their turn those really faster ones have already been dealt with and left “behind”!

As those “mini cycles” go on (within championship), every single participant will get to finish in top 1/3 at least couple of times. And most of them will get a chance to try all available cars – that being all GT300’s or anything else.

In their NATURAL, STOCK FORM 👍

 

[Denilson]

Hi again!

I want to comment the divisional system that we initially used in PURE | JGTS, I also want to discuss the car specs issue, and also the series you had as an example of using similar cars that each driver need to pick twice in this case.

So..

1: Divisional System:
It was as Wardez said, Masi_23 somewhat mentioned something that shoul be voncidered an embryo for our system..
Then, during the creation of PURE | JGTS we discussed how to handle the 2 divisions since we had so many signed up drivers.
Aderrrm was the guy who put the final system on "paper".. Me, Wardez and Aderrrm discussed some issues with it such as dropped rounds, DNS's, and DNF's etc.
From there, we formed what Wardez posted above.
We also got a lot of good feedback from CSLACR and Dr_Watson, and a handful of other PURE members.

We stuck to this system for the first 3-4 rounds if I recall, but voices arised that it was'nt a fair system (I diagreed, but since this was a democratical process, I had to give way for the majority).
We had one really fast guy called "TRP_NOSS" who screwed up his Division qualifyer (held prior round 1 to determine the divisions for the first race), which forced him to race in D2 for race 1 and 2.
People said: "he's fast, he should compete in D1", "We want to have all the fastest guys in D1, this system is not doing that for us" and so on..

According to me, you race where you qualify. It's simple.. And then voices arised about how hard it was to get promoted, or easy to get demoted if one race was dropped/missed.
Imo, that had to do with the extreme level of the drivers waaay down in D2. The level was really high, and then it will ofc be hard to get i.e promoted.


I think it was absolutely perfect.
If it was up to me, we should've kept it all the way. But to please the majority, we had open qualifyers prior each round.
What I liked with the divisional system was that it was you race performance that decided your division, not your hot lap capabilities.. TRP_NOSS comes to mind again. He was an awesome hotlapper, but sadly not as good during the races.. He did make it to D1 after race 2 though.

So don't be afraid to use it. It's a really good system.
Perhaps up the multiplyer by ,1 so it's either ,6 or ,8 multiplyed with your previous result. Nothing more than that.


Car Specs: Yes, it's extremely time consuming to get 8-12 cars on par. The pp system is not something we can trust, which is a shame.
Not even for very similar cars.. I.e the Lexus PETRONAS TOM'S SC430 and the Nissan AUTECH MOTUL GT-R..

But then again, without these tests to decide individual mods/pp's, we'd have to go with i.e GT-R's only, and the field would look booring.

Imo, we managed to get really good specs (can be found here at GTP in our PURE | JGTS thread or at pure.gate19), and the racing was awesome!!
Sure, the cars had different weak and strong areas, but that was just a fun twist imo.
"I should be stronger than him on this circuit or weakest at that circuit".. It was still even enough to not gurantee a victory because of your car.
And that's where the line is imo. As soon as the cars are so different that you know for sure which cars will claim top 3, the specs are not good.. But we could always see different cars on the podium.
Timeconsuming, yes, but still worth it. No doubt!

3: Choose a group of cars, i.e 7 similar cars in a 7 round series. Drive each car once. Which car in which race is totally up to the driver.
Yes, we have this method. Still not in a series PURE have hosted, but is beeing unde the works as we speak.
If you want to check it out, head to pure.gate19 forum and read in the "Series X" thread under "Series Planning" 👍

It's an amazing way to pile up a bunch of nice cars and without touching them, the grid will look awesome.
So I defenetly agree that this is one way of making the grid diverse without the need for timeconsuming tests.
Ok, to find exactly which cars to pit against eachother do need testing of some kind.. But for the series X selection, it's not more than one afternoon of tests. 👍